Rogue tactics

[jdizzy001]

So I have never actually played a rogue over an extended campaign. I have never experienced the growth needed to understand how a rogue works. How do they stay alive? They don't have spells and they obviously aren't a front line fighter. Sure, they can effectively lob arrows at bad guys, but for a guy like me, that gets boring. Sure, there is back/sneak attack, but without "cooperation" from the DM, we are looking at one or two good hits and that is it. I need to better understand how the rogue survives combat. What can you teach me?

[Go0gleplex]

skirmish tactics. Hit and run. ambush and fade. Basically never engage in a straight up fight if you have any other option. partner up with the cleric or mage and act as their support or guard. Utilize poisons and other nasty tricks like tanglefoot bags or handfuls of fine ground salt in the eyes of the enemy before engaging them. Much like the illusionist, the rogue player needs to rely on their wits rather than act like a meatshield.

[alcyone]

What can you teach me?

As you've noted, the Rogue works best with DM cooperation.

* They have an unfavorable risk:reward (unless they steal from the party). Looking for traps and opening doors is fatal, and you aren't even the one with the best chance of surviving a trap.
* Sneak attack and back attack rarely present themselves. You must actively set up opportunities and make sure the rest of the party doesn't (*&@$ them up.

When(if) you get high enough level to sneak attack with a ranged weapon, things open up, and you become deadlier. Your life's goal then is to find ways to be silent and invisible and to find a non-useless weapon shorter than your arm. Though maybe being an assassin is better if you go that route.

Some people fix the rogue a bit with multi-classing. It's sort of curious that the thief/rogue ever found its way into D&D; the 3 LBBs only had 3 classes.

Since the dice are stacked against you, try never to make them a factor. Try to figure out traps in character instead of rolling for them. Describe in great detail what you are looking at and why and come up with common-sense no-fail ways around them. The dice will kill you if you can't avoid them. Also, once you say "No traps here." make someone with lots of armor open the door/chest. And they should do it with a string, rope, pole, or Unseen Servant or Mage Hand or Open/Close or Knock. Or make the cleric cast Find Traps and just follow the party around and collect gold.

You probably are a demi-human with Dex prime, and maybe Intelligence or Strength, so you suck at Listen checks, so make the cleric do that too.

Make sure that your CK is using flanking and facing in such a way that you ever have a chance to do anything at all, and that Surprise is a thing in your game.

If your CK is willing to house rule, stop using Primes and use the thief skill % and save tables from your favorite old school D&D game.

It's hard to justify the rogue in rules terms as it stands. You have to be willing to roleplay the heck out of it and hope for the best.

[Captain_K]

Have a good CON or STR. Use a bow for Gods sake. You're not a bad archer. Poison is great stuff. Fight next to the Cleric and always tithe well the cleric with the cure. Work with the Cleric.. One spell for you, "Command"... one word for that spell, "Die".. while they're busy "fake dying", the thief steps in and makes it real. One dead monster every other round, not a bad duo.

I've never had a problem playing any class. they all work, the thief does too.

[jdizzy001]

Great advice. I like to play cnc as close to RAW as possible, so I don't modify much. As far as rogues go, I envision using a swashbuckler style rogue so I'll have a bow but I'm not a cloak and dagger kind of guy. I prefer the errol flynn approach. In which case maybe I should consider a different class or augment the rogue with advantages.

[Captain_K]

Someone here has made a swashbuckler class.. but if you want to fight as well as a fighter but have some rogue try class and a half, you can try it in version A and version B, both the same PC. Run version A for a few games then switch to version B for a few games and pick which you like better, might even let the group chime in on how they liked playing with A vs B. A being prime thief and B being prime fighter. Obviously option C is multi-class. Also, putting higher scores NOT in DEX and picking primes wisely helps too. I can see you now as a Gnomish 18 STR (prime) fighter/thief with boots of striding and jumping, swinging from the chandeliers while fighting zombies (or drunks) at the local pub.

[Litzen Tallister]

Since the dice are stacked against you, try never to make them a factor. Try to figure out traps in character instead of rolling for them. Describe in great detail what you are looking at and why and come up with common-sense no-fail ways around them. The dice will kill you if you can't avoid them. Also, once you say "No traps here." make someone with lots of armor open the door/chest. And they should do it with a string, rope, pole, or Unseen Servant or Mage Hand or Open/Close or Knock. Or make the cleric cast Find Traps and just follow the party around and collect gold.

Absolutely this. The chances of success with finding and/or disarming a trap are low in comparison to the joy a CK will feel at unleashing a deadly trap. All those extras will go a long way toward making a rogue character useful.

Also, scouting ahead to give the party an idea of what's around the corner can be very useful. This can shift from being surprise attacked to getting the drop on the monsters with a well-planned strategy.

[Captain_K]

I've been playing NPCs for years now the players have no idea what class the NPC really is... We had a player that would buy healing potions and pretend to be a priest of a diseased god "Reaver the Diseased".. he was really a mage. The point is, most classes are in "how" you play them. I have an PC that is scary and spooky as all get out.. the characters know he's a priest of Death himself... several will not go near him, others have converted to the faith. Its all in how you play.. so swab those decks, walk some planks, and swing from the lanyards.. but don't let your balls freeze to the brass monkey! (if you have cannon or the like)

[serleran]

As others have said, a pivotal (for me) way to play is to use things no one else will... glue, Greek oil, alchemy stuff. Poison. That sort of thing. Also, disguise your weapons. Sneak attack is all about the unexpected... so hit once, hit first, and hit hard.

[Lord Dynel]

When I'm playing a rogue, I try to get and keep a ranged weapon handy. My tactic is to try to attack enemy spellcasters, if there are any, or opposing ranged attackers. The high dexterity usually helps. Otherwise, I'll try to help the beefiest ally, because the foes usually keep their attention on them, and I can assist without too much worry that they'll switch and attack me.

[Aramis]

Aergraith gave a very good answer

I would add:

Vanilla rogues can be a bit "uninvolved" in combats. Multiclassing ameliorates this a lot and the low xp requirements for rogues means even with multiclassing you are pretty good at rogue skills

Skill monkey classes work best either with primes devoted to regularly used skills _or_ if the DM uses an alternate rule with skills such as the Treebore(tm) system (all class skills are treated as prime) or the Troll Lord (proposed but never implemented) system (all skill checks for a class use the prime attribute-e.g. listening is a dex check)

Your job is to check for traps on that door/chest. Your job is not to open it. That is best handled by the class with the most HP and dex prime

Ask your DM: what does "unaware" mean to you? you can back attack when the target is "unaware of the rogue's presence". Depending on how narrowly your DM interprets that you may go entire sessions without a back attack, which is a crying shame

As I have written here before, I think the rogue would work better with a 2 level sneak attack. The lesser sneak merely requires attacking from the rear (e.g. a full flank with another PC) or from surprise. +2/+2 to hit/damage. This should happen regularly. Whereas the "unaware" greater sneak happens more rarely but has the much greater damage bonus. But that's just a house rule

Remember, the benefit for the greater sneak sounds quite high, but the rogue still has a pretty good chance to miss outright and if he does not kill the target in one shot, he is now fully exposed and smiling sheepishly at the ogre with nothing but a dagger and leather jerkin protecting him

The most important thing is: if an invisibility ring is found, your job will get twice as fun and three times more survivable (another good reason to multi class with wizard)

The rogue, especially if multiclassed with spellcasting, has the potential to be a tactically stimulating but difficult to survive class.