Miniatures murder roleplay.

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slimykuotoan
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Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by slimykuotoan »

I know that's a rather hardcore statement, but it's how I feel: the heavier the miniature use, the less the roleplay.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the attributes the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Kayolan »

Some people like the use of miniatures, others don't. On the rare occasion that I do use them, I do loosely; for marching order and general placement only. Others like to have it set up like a war game, with exact movements and line of sight, area effects and so on, while this is easily handled on Roll20, Maptools, etc., in person I would never run a game like that. Most of the games I've run are without miniatures, but it's not because I feel that it kills role-playing, after all how much role-playing are you going to have in a combat situation, if by role-playing we mean in-character parley and not a general sense of what role-playing actually is, an all-encompassing act of playing your "role" in a fantasy milieu. In those situations other than combat, I don't see any utility in miniatures (with the exception of marching order). And while my refereeing style is more "theater of the mind", I wouldn't go as far to say that it would kill the players' enjoyment of the role-playing experience if they put a miniature of their character on the table.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Treebore »

I use mini's for combat. There typically is very little to zero role play in combat, with or without mini's. With mini's, and terrain, you can climb up on top of a rock outcropping, and then leap onto the backs of the Dark Unicorn, stabbing it, then making a DEX check to become an instant bronc busting Cowboy! You can't do that without mini's and terrain, without the CK having to be much more descriptive and spend time answering more questions that mini's and terrain pieces answer with a look.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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slimykuotoan
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by slimykuotoan »

I find there's a definite psychological effect, a distancing between the player and the character, as gamers look down upon their minis placed upon grids. A disembodiment, where remembered battles are a sequence o' mechanical chess moves.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the attributes the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Treebore »

slimykuotoan wrote:I find there's a definite psychological effect, a distancing between the player and the character, as gamers look down upon their minis placed upon grids. A disembodiment, where remembered battles are a sequence o' mechanical chess moves.
Oh, yeah, I've seen that happen too, which is another one of the many reasons why I love the SIEGE mechanic. With or without the mini's and the maps, players forget to try and make the scene "cool". They don't jump, flip, use chandeliers, leap from above, etc... to kill the evil Unicorn or to slay the Dragons. However, I find with the presence of a map, with tables, chairs, ledges, stairs, balcony's, etc... right before their eyes, and some gentle prodding, they will start making use of the terrain to make the combat more cinematic and "cool". When was the last time you flipped from a table? Swung from a Chandelier? Leapt on to the back of a Dark Unicorn, stabbed it, and rode it like a Cowboy until it collapsed, and then slipped and fell in the blood soaked mud trying to safely dismount the dying mount?
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Kayolan
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Kayolan »

Treebore wrote:When was the last time you [...] Leapt on to the back of a Dark Unicorn, stabbed it, and rode it like a Cowboy until it collapsed, and then slipped and fell in the blood soaked mud trying to safely dismount the dying mount?
Good times, good times :lol:

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by jdizzy001 »

I use a lot of minis for combat. To spur imaginative thought during combat I use a rule called, "yes, and then..." What this rule says is I as the CK set the general scene. If during combat a pc has an idea, such as, "Ar there any barrels in here? I want to try something." My answer is yes. I then add the barrels to the scene with a dry erase pen or whatever I have.

I'm not to worried about role play during combat. Minis do create the expectation that fighting will ensue, but good pc's dont follow thru with expectations. I recall during one session my ck had a bunch of minis out, ready for combat, to include a massive dragon fight. The team rp'ed there whole way thru and not a single sword was drawn. Instead of fighting one of the fighters convinced the guards to have a wrestling match and during what was supposed to be a dragon battle the team ended up playing on the dragon's love of gold and trading him some old magic goods for passage by him.

Its up to the ck and pc's not to let the presence of minis set expectations.
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Litzen Tallister »

I prefer a no miniatures approach to rpgs. I wouldn't say it discourages creative storytelling in combat, but I've found that people easily shift to viewing the combat as a wargame, rather than a role-playing game, when looking at a set of miniatures on a table.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Rhuvein »

No, I don't think miniatures affected roleplay in my FtF group. The players who liked to roleplay did it, without regard to miniatures or placement on the battlemap. Others didn't care to roleplay and I don't believe in pushing it, nor did I withhold XP if they didn't.

And like most of you who use them, it was at combat time!

:)
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by concobar »

Treebore wrote:I use mini's for combat. There typically is very little to zero role play in combat, with or without mini's. With mini's, and terrain, you can climb up on top of a rock outcropping, and then leap onto the backs of the Dark Unicorn, stabbing it, then making a DEX check to become an instant bronc busting Cowboy! You can't do that without mini's and terrain, without the CK having to be much more descriptive and spend time answering more questions that mini's and terrain pieces answer with a look.
^
Pretty much this.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by serleran »

I was really hoping this was about a new game.

"Miniatures Murder" sounds awesome.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Rigon »

slimykuotoan wrote:I know that's a rather hardcore statement, but it's how I feel: the heavier the miniature use, the less the roleplay.
It's not the miniature, it's the player. I invest the the same roll-play aspects into each character whether I use a mini for it or not.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Rhuvein »

serleran wrote:I was really hoping this was about a new game.

"Miniatures Murder" sounds awesome.
That would be Horror~clix, no?

I seem to recall us talking about these somewhere . . a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ~ or mebbe one of your old forums! Heh.

Did you ever do anything with them? I only used a couple of minis for my C&C game years ago.
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Kayolan »

Even Pardue the holy man had his miniature...

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by serleran »

Rhuvein wrote:
serleran wrote:I was really hoping this was about a new game.

"Miniatures Murder" sounds awesome.
That would be Horror~clix, no?

I seem to recall us talking about these somewhere . . a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away ~ or mebbe one of your old forums! Heh.

Did you ever do anything with them? I only used a couple of minis for my C&C game years ago.
I tried to get some but it seems they all but vanished from stores and I don't want to slough through eBay and other online "retailers" to get those which I could probably use.

Instead, I make do with some paper miniatures I culled from the WotC site (you might remember the pictures of the cemetery / mausoleum I posted years back) and some other places. I don't use them much mostly because I made some major mistakes with them (expected, it being my first) but I still look for interesting models... not really to play a RPG with but because I find I like to look at them. And they go great with board games!

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Rhuvein »

I do remember the cemetary, it was excellent. I really enjoyed constructing paper figures and buildings. Wish I had more time, really. Fat Dragon's stuff is really great. Mebbe, once I really retire I can get back to that stuff. It's really fun and rewarding to me, more so than painting minis (which I do like).
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by slimykuotoan »

Litzen Tallister wrote:I prefer a no miniatures approach to rpgs. I wouldn't say it discourages creative storytelling in combat, but I've found that people easily shift to viewing the combat as a wargame, rather than a role-playing game, when looking at a set of miniatures on a table.
Here here.
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Kayolan »

slimykuotoan wrote:
Litzen Tallister wrote:I prefer a no miniatures approach to rpgs. I wouldn't say it discourages creative storytelling in combat, but I've found that people easily shift to viewing the combat as a wargame, rather than a role-playing game, when looking at a set of miniatures on a table.
Here here.
Do you consider tokens on a virtual table top to be the same as miniatures?

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by serleran »

Rhuvein wrote:I do remember the cemetary, it was excellent. I really enjoyed constructing paper figures and buildings. Wish I had more time, really. Fat Dragon's stuff is really great. Mebbe, once I really retire I can get back to that stuff. It's really fun and rewarding to me, more so than painting minis (which I do like).
I agree. For me, constructing the paper models is more akin to making something as opposed to simply coloring the lines, as it were. Both things are fun but I enjoyed making the terrain more than I did painting a figure. Oh, and yes, FDG makes great stuff... I don't buy it, but I want to. Too many other things eating away. Hmm, I should make myself a paper house.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Snoring Rock »

I must be one of those exceptions to the rule.

I have been using figures extensively since 1978. I have lost most of the lead and it is all almost plastic now. Theses plastic minis store without fear or starches and bends. I no longer have to paint either. We could use buttons, soda bottle caps, or dice, but those really cool figures are better and more fun. I love my huge collection of minis!

We use them for combat. It helps us with visualizing distance, using a grid, you know, charging that must be over standard movement but under 2x movement, missile ranges, that kind of thing. Line of sight comes to mind. These are factors in the game and combat and the players like knowing and seeing. It makes it easier for me to keep track of where everyone is as well.

We still have great role play. I do not se where it interferes with role play at all. Never a problem at my table.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by maasenstodt »

Rigon wrote:It's not the miniature, it's the player. I invest the the same roll-play aspects into each character whether I use a mini for it or not.
That's exactly right.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Treebore »

maasenstodt wrote:
Rigon wrote:It's not the miniature, it's the player. I invest the the same roll-play aspects into each character whether I use a mini for it or not.
That's exactly right.
Yep, I think Rigon hit the proverbial nail square on the head.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Captain_K »

I fail to connect the two. Mini's help me and the 6 PCs keep track of who's where, not much else so they can keep the story "reasonably" accurate as they roll play their actions... after that well, its just all chalk dust and dice.. one could argue dice rolling violates the players ability to roll play what they want to do... where will it end, roll playing over the internet.. sorry, I love my tools to aid my failing memory... ;}
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

I fall solidly into the no-minis camp. What bothers me is that people see a battle grid and it turns into chess. In my experience, you see less creativity and swashbuckling during combat when you bust out the miniatures. People start thinking in squares.

But I’ll agree, a good player will roleplay and invest in their character regardless of the situation.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Piperdog »

The whole miniatures debate really depends on the style of play. I agree that miniatures detract from the minds eye theatre thing that story driven narrative creates. My brother collects the Dwarven Forge sets and has some elaborate terrain. When we play using those fantastic sets it is fun for sure, but that becomes the game. The Eye Candy. The nicer looking the set up the more the brain focuses on that instead of the imagined world. I often use no miniatures for this very reason but then find that players and myself get confused on who is where, so I compromise and use an erasable mat. Instead of sweet looking mini's, I instead opt for colored plastic tokens. The idea is to make the game grid so unappealing that players only glance at it as a reference to combat position and pay attention to my verbal narrative instead. It works very well for me and has become my main way to present the battle for C&C games. If the table set up is too nice, folks zero in on the coolness of it all, but if its bland and uninteresting, then they will just glance at it to figure out the tactics, and then look back at you for the gamemaster description of events and forget about the board.

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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Rhuvein »

Piper, I think you make some good points . . but by your own admission, you use minis.

If I understand correctly, you think that they may detract from players paying attention to your CK'ing (verbal narrative), but I think the question is . . do the minis detract from your player's roleplaying in the game.

So, do they?

:)
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Re: Miniatures murder roleplay.

Post by Daniel »

Piperdog wrote: The nicer looking the set up the more the brain focuses on that instead of the imagined world. I often use no miniatures for this very reason but then find that players and myself get confused on who is where, so I compromise and use an erasable mat. Instead of sweet looking mini's, I instead opt for colored plastic tokens. The idea is to make the game grid so unappealing that players only glance at it as a reference to combat position and pay attention to my verbal narrative instead. It works very well for me and has become my main way to present the battle for C&C games. If the table set up is too nice, folks zero in on the coolness of it all, but if its bland and uninteresting, then they will just glance at it to figure out the tactics, and then look back at you for the gamemaster description of events and forget about the board.
Interesting. I had the opposite happen to me. When I used a dry erase mat with simple colored blocks, it seemed to cause more "board game" attitudes to come out. Players worried about the grid and almost forgot what they were fighting. It added quite a bit to my burden and had a negative impact to the game overall. But when I began to use minis and added more 3D terrain they began to discuss role playing aspects to the combat. I got more creative actions and less board game/chess moves.

Guess it is more about the players and GM then about the rules and figures.

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