The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

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The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by slimykuotoan »

What is it/ are they?
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

The Prysmal Eye.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by tylermo »

The Prysmal Eye. Treebore has spoken, and that's all you need to know, son. ;)

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by slimykuotoan »

Really. More so than any of the dragons?
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Omote »

Reaper. M&T4.

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Rhuvein »

Titans!
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Arduin »

Depends upon the total composition of the party and the abilities of the players.
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Aramis »

The most dangerous monster is the same as the most dangerous game: man

Specifically, a fully equipped party of them

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

slimykuotoan wrote:Really. More so than any of the dragons?
Yeah, I think the Pysmal Eye will kick anythings arse, including Ancient Dragons.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by tylermo »

M&T 4?

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

tylermo wrote:M&T 4?
Yeah, I am trying to figure that out myself. We have the M&T, the M&T of A, and Classic Monsters, and I don't think the Reaper is in any of them, but I haven't looked. So I am wondering if he is counting Of Gods and Monsters or Casey's booklet of evil magics and creatures.

I just checked both the M&T of A and CM, there isn't a Reaper in either of them.

It also occurred to me that Omote may be play testing stuff for future products again...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Aramis »

Omote wrote:Reaper. M&T4.

~O
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Traveller »

@tylermo, Treebore, Aramis: The 4th printing M&T has two new creatures in it: Kyreen and the Reaper.

The Reaper is nasty, and the Prysmal Eye is the "franchise monster". But in terms of raw power, it would be an absolutely brutal fight between the Eye and an ancient Gold Dragon. At the end however, I believe the Dragon would be the winner.

The Prysmal Eye is immune to all spells and spell-like effects except for those which are sound based. Spells that involve light actually heal the creature. Each eye has a rather nasty effect, especially the harm eye. It has the spell ability of a 12th-level illusionist. But it has some weaknesses. It's rather cowardly, preferring not to be involved in combat. The effects of each eye only function to a range of 60 feet.

The Gold Dragon is immune to all sleep and paralysis effects, and is immune to all polymorph effects due to its Alternate Form ability. While it is not immune to spells and spell-like effects like the Eye, it does have SR 8, which helps. It has its breath weapon and its physical attacks. Does it have weaknesses? If anything, it may rely too much upon its magic, which when facing off against a creature with immunity to most magic, is a bad combination.

The one intangible the Gold Dragon has over the Eye is patience. The Gold Dragon likes to draw out combat for days or even weeks. As the description indicates, Gold Dragons will tease their foes with false hope, weakening them with magical assaults, breath weapons, and aerial assaults until the Dragon has learned its opponents capabilities in order to crush it.

Gold Dragons, since they like to draw out combat, eventually will learn the strengths and weakness of the Eye and exploit them. The biggest weakness of the Eye is that its spell-like effects projected from its eyes only have a range of 60 feet. A smart dragon will realize this and will exploit it by staying out of the Eye's attack range while using its one range attack: its breath weapon. The breath weapon is not magical, thus the Eye's immunity to magic is useless. Its range is a 140-foot line or a 70-foot cone, both out of range of the Eye's attacks. The breath weapon itself does, at age 12, 36d10 of damage, and can be used three times a day. A Prysmal Eye has, on average, 83hp. The dragon's breath weapon does an average of 198hp of damage, or 99hp of damage if the Eye manages to save.

Depending on the Eye's spell choices for its illusionist class, it may draw the combat out a bit longer, but I don't think that would be enough to compensate for the damage done by the breath weapon, especially if used multiple times in the combat.

Winner: Gold Dragon, but not by much. It could very easily go the way of the Eye if the Gold Dragon is particularly unlucky, or foolish.

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

Ah, I see the Reaper now, NASTY!
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Rhuvein »

I agree, the Gold Dragon and perhaps several other dragon types could defeat the Prysmal Eye.

Physical attacks seem the way to go.

I would say my Titan should be able to rip the Eye to shreds very quickly. 0'course they'll never meet as the Eye will stay in the dungeon and the Titan can't fit into a dungeon!

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Traveller »

The Eye wouldn't have a chance with my "adjustments" to dragons in play. I play C&C dragons much like AD&D versions, in that their breath weapons do an amount of damage equal to the total hit points of the dragon. And since my dragons all have d20 hit dice, a 720hp breath weapon from an ancient Gold Dragon would totally incinerate the Eye.

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

You guys may want to take a look at the spells a 12th level Illusionist can cast, on top of all their Eye powers. Prysmal Eyes can make themselves Invisible, Flying, Phantasmal Killer, hold and Charm Monsters, and a whole lot more. I'll put my gold on a Prysmal Eye over a Dragon anytime. Can a Dragon win? Sure, but I think a Prysmal eye will win significantly more often, so are more powerful. The biggest advantage an Ancient Dragon would have is that they get to add their full HD to their saves on top of having SR. Even so, I would still put my gold on a Prysmal Eye. Now consider this. The Prysmal Eye is the "standard" Prysmal Eye. Now imagine if you were able to "age" or "advance" a Prysmal Eye like you can with Dragons. Say an Ancient Prysmal Eye also has 36 HD, and casts Illusionist Spells as say a 33rd level Illusionist, which would win then?

Still, even going by the book, if I were an Ancient Gold Dragon, I'd prefer to not fight even the Standard Prysmal Eye. Especially since I could never surprise it, and probably won't be able to see it once it gets its Improved Invisibility up, then if it succeeds at blinding me? Or fly close enough to use one or many of its eye powers on me? Yeah, I'd just prefer to stay away from a Prysmal Eye.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

As for Titans, yeah, they could give a Dragon or a Prysmal Eye a run for their gold. Especially since their spell selection can make them so mobile, invisbile and immune to certain things, like a Dragons Breath Weapon.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by alcyone »

Aramis wrote:The most dangerous monster is the same as the most dangerous game: man

Specifically, a fully equipped party of them
Quite right!

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by slimykuotoan »

I'm thinking gold dragon now.

The prysmal eye has spell like effects for sure, but the CL to overcome these effects would be based upon its hit die: 15.

The ancient gold dragon has a hit die of 36, so it's unlikely this dragon will be failing any saves.
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

slimykuotoan wrote:I'm thinking gold dragon now.

The prysmal eye has spell like effects for sure, but the CL to overcome these effects would be based upon its hit die: 15.

The ancient gold dragon has a hit die of 36, so it's unlikely this dragon will be failing any saves.
The real question to answer is, even if the Dragon is an Ancient with 36 HD, will it even be able to find the Prysmal Eye to do any attacks? Doubtful. Of course I don't recall C&C defining a roll of "1" as a failure, regardless of HD, etc... so going by the rules, an Ancient Gold Dragon would never fail a save against a Prysmal Eye. So the Prysmal Eye would have to hope it overcomes the SR with its Harm effect, since it specifically states there is no save versus this Harm, and then finish it off with a successful Prismatic Spray. Since at that point, all the Eye would need to do is 5 or more HP of damage.

Edit: Let me also point at that the Prysmal Eye can also bring more than one of its eyes to bear on a single target. So if the Harm and the Prismatic Spray eyes are next to each other, they can kill the Gold Dragon in one round. As long as it over comes the SR of 8.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by slimykuotoan »

Hmm... Totally much to consider.
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

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slimykuotoan wrote:Hmm... Totally much to consider.
Yep, remember in C&C you only have to roll equal to or greater to over come SR. So roll an 8 or better, twice, and the Prysmal Eye wins. If it doesn't, then you have to determine if the Dragon will even be able to find the Prysmal Eye to even attack it. If the Dragon can't, the Prysmal Eye gets to maneuver around for its second try. So for a typical encounter, I'd say the Eye is going to win over half the time. Now a BIG confounding factor is that an Ancient Dragon in all likelihood will have Dragon Magic AND be equivalent to a 12th Level Wizard. So the spells available to such a Dragon can majorly change how combat will play out.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Rigon »

For your consideration: Morgl of Airhde fame. Nasty buggers.

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

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A gold dragon with a couple of Anti-magic shell spells wins most likely against a Prysmal eye. The short range of its eye stalk effects also makes it very vulnerable to an adventuring party of high level. A high level fighter with a Girdle of Giant str chucking rocks at it would be effective.
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

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Arduin wrote:A gold dragon with a couple of Anti-magic shell spells wins most likely against a Prysmal eye. The short range of its eye stalk effects also makes it very vulnerable to an adventuring party of high level. A high level fighter with a Girdle of Giant str chucking rocks at it would be effective.
Sure, IF the dragon even has that spell. Randomly determine spells, and its highly unlikely, so it would require a CK intentionally giving it. Improved Invisibility makes it difficult for a high level fighter to throw rocks at something it cannot see. Plus, since the Prysmal Eye may be able to use its spells to make itself fly, and possibly have Improved Invisibility, its short range on its eye stalks would not be a liability. Assuming it has the right spells.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Traveller »

Ranged attacks are how you take out a Prysmal Eye, which is why you always place one in an enclosed space. ;)

There's absolutely no doubt that the Prysmal Eye is one of the nastiest creatures in the game. There's also no doubt that it puts the [CENSORED: WotC Product Identity] to shame. There are very few creatures that can go one on one with it and survive. I've demonstrated how tight of a combat it would be between the most powerful dragon in the book and the Eye. There aren't many other creatures that could successfully take on a Prysmal Eye and win. Which is why when you see a Prysmal Eye, you get the hell out of there as fast as possible.

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

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Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote:A gold dragon with a couple of Anti-magic shell spells wins most likely against a Prysmal eye. The short range of its eye stalk effects also makes it very vulnerable to an adventuring party of high level. A high level fighter with a Girdle of Giant str chucking rocks at it would be effective.
Sure, IF the dragon even has that spell.
If an ancient Gold lived on the same continent as a Prysmal eye it would acquire the spell just to be safe. It wouldn't be stupid enough to not learn it. They plan ahead for the millennia. A GM that randomly determines spells for an ancient gold has no business GMing a game at that level.
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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:
Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote:A gold dragon with a couple of Anti-magic shell spells wins most likely against a Prysmal eye. The short range of its eye stalk effects also makes it very vulnerable to an adventuring party of high level. A high level fighter with a Girdle of Giant str chucking rocks at it would be effective.
Sure, IF the dragon even has that spell.
If an ancient Gold lived on the same continent as a Prysmal eye it would acquire the spell just to be safe. It wouldn't be stupid enough to not learn it. They plan ahead for the millennia. A GM that randomly determines spells for an ancient gold has no business GMing a game at that level.
Damn! I guess I failed at running all my high level games, then. Not even a little bit.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The most powerful monster(s) in C&C.

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Treebore wrote: Damn! I guess I failed at running all my high level games, then.
Now you know what to fix. :lol:
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