Anyone roll ability scores btb?

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Treebore
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Treebore »

serleran wrote:I'm getting partial to Amber's auction system. Each player has to decide if they want to be the strongest, smartest, most enthralling, etc of the group and then, if someone else says they also want to be that, it comes down to what the other gives up. The larger the sacrifice, the more you get.

Kinda neat.

Not intended for normal archetype play but could be fun to try.
One system, I don't recall which RPG I found it in, it definitely wasn't one I played outside of a convention, or else I would remember what RPG it is, is one where the players create "connections" between their characters. For every connection you earned a bonus for character creation, such as increasing attributes, but this RPG had other things you could increase too, probably skills. I think it capped out at 6 bonus points from these connections. FATE reminds me of this every time I create a character for FATE, but FATE doesn't award bonus points to build, just additional conditions to "tag", which is even better, over all. Anyways, if I was to do a straight 3d6 game, I would want to also do such a "connections" creation to give the players bonus' to their attributes rolled, both to reward the creativity, and to soften any pain caused by crappy rolls.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Lord Dynel
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Treebore wrote:Like I said, if the players WANT that excitement, they are free to roll 3d6 whenever they want. The characters are about THEM, not what I, the CK, thinks it should be. So I let my players decide how they do everything about creating their character. After character creation, its pretty much all me and what I decide, so my players get full control of their PC creation. Typically, 95% of the time, if not more often, they use my suggested methods, because when it gets down to it, players want to know they aren't going to have sucky attributes. Which is fine, like I said earlier, I want my players to play a character they KNOW they will at least like, if not really enjoy. So giving them full control over their attribute generation is the least I can do as their CK/GM/DM. After all, it is THEIR character, not the CK's. We get all the NPC's, and we can create them however we wish.
No, I get you. Your style is just different than mine.

I've had two viewpoints in the past; PCs are either cut from the same cloth as everyone else in the world or they're "born heroes." Both have their merits and flaws, that I won't go into here (everyone probably knows them anyway :))

I think my players have a decent amount of control over their creation but not to the point you allow, which is all I was saying. And since I'm currently of the former of my two viewpoints these days (PCs are common folk, maybe slightly better), I'm definitely into methods that allow for overall lower or average scores. It makes the better scores more coveted, more important. Even if we GM's can just kill a character outright, no matter the scores, that 15 or 16 the player rolls makes them (usually) happy that they truly were truly lucky to have been blessed with great strength, health or whatnot. Sure, they may have to "suffer" a 6 or 7 (or worse), I think it can truly enhance a campaign when players also have to roleplay a weakling, an idiot, or a hideously scarred or deformed character (all real examples of past campaigns of mine). While it is indeed a fantasy game, I also believe that rarely do heroes have no area of themselves where they aren't lacking; many have an "Achilles Heel." My current creation method certainly allows the possibility of having no low scores, but also allows for the possibility of no high ones, either. In the end, the PCs have to make their actions memorable to really stand out in the campaign world, and they've done so repeatedly over the years.

In the end, as long as your players have fun and you - as CK - are having fun, that's all that matters! :)
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Treebore »

Yet, that is my point. You force YOUR views on your players, disregarding what their views may be. I stopped doing that. I let them put THEIR views into building their character, not mine. Which is why I give them complete control of creating their character, because it is their character, not mine, so they should be able to create the character how they want, not how I want. So that is where I see our "difference". My players show me what their view is on character creation every time they create a character. Their view is obviously that they like having a set of "good" stats, stats you cannot get rolling 3d6, etc... without a very strong element of luck going your way. So they get a character they want to play, according to their own personal likes and dislikes, and I run the rest of the game IAW with the rules, including my House Rules, that my players also helped me develop. Which is how I like to do things.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Treebore »

Which, I have to say, I find ironically funny, because while they are perfectly happy to create their character however they wish in my games, when they run their games, they revert back to the classic "Let me tell you how your going to create your character according to my views" mind set. So the classic "It is good for me as a player, but my view is what is going to be good for you when I am the CK." If they really, truly, believed in their own view, they would adhere to it when they create their own characters, yet they don't. Just something that I find a bit humorous among the people I game with.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Rigon »

Treebore wrote:Which, I have to say, I find ironically funny, because while they are perfectly happy to create their character however they wish in my games, when they run their games, they revert back to the classic "Let me tell you how your going to create your character according to my views" mind set. So the classic "It is good for me as a player, but my view is what is going to be good for you when I am the CK." If they really, truly, believed in their own view, they would adhere to it when they create their own characters, yet they don't. Just something that I find a bit humorous among the people I game with.
I use my system for attributes when I make a character for Tree's game. It just seems to give a decent range of scores and I like it.

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by alcyone »

Treebore wrote:Which, I have to say, I find ironically funny, because while they are perfectly happy to create their character however they wish in my games, when they run their games, they revert back to the classic "Let me tell you how your going to create your character according to my views" mind set. So the classic "It is good for me as a player, but my view is what is going to be good for you when I am the CK." If they really, truly, believed in their own view, they would adhere to it when they create their own characters, yet they don't. Just something that I find a bit humorous among the people I game with.
My preferences as a player and a CK are different. I'll accommodate the CK's preferences and boundaries when I am in their game. It's an opportunity to try something new. Though I think I have always done random characters in your games. In my own, I never do things the same twice in a row and change my mind often. I'll find the sweet spot in 25 years maybe. It'll probably look a lot like your house rules, but I have to find it for myself.

I am going to let my home game players choose their ability scores though, retroactively and see what comes of it.

In AD&D i think there was some notion of, well, you'll be running a lot of games, and out of the 100 people you'll play with, most of them should be humans of the 4 core classes, and once every 500 games or so someone might get stats for a bard, or monk, or ranger, which are a special prize every blue moon.

But we have no race/class minimums here BtB, and I am not going to be running that volume of players on as many short games; I tend to run campaigns with 2-4 players, so it's fair to let them pick.
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Lord Dynel »

Treebore wrote:Yet, that is my point. You force YOUR views on your players, disregarding what their views may be. I stopped doing that. I let them put THEIR views into building their character, not mine. Which is why I give them complete control of creating their character, because it is their character, not mine, so they should be able to create the character how they want, not how I want. So that is where I see our "difference". My players show me what their view is on character creation every time they create a character. Their view is obviously that they like having a set of "good" stats, stats you cannot get rolling 3d6, etc... without a very strong element of luck going your way. So they get a character they want to play, according to their own personal likes and dislikes, and I run the rest of the game IAW with the rules, including my House Rules, that my players also helped me develop. Which is how I like to do things.
Well, that's certainly an opinion. The player's can absolutely make the character they want to play. As was mentioned elsewhere in this thread, since there aren't really qualifying attribute scores for more of the "prestigious" classes, attributes really have less of a meaning, than say older editions of AD&D. So my PCs do indeed have free reign in making their character. But yes, not so-called "total control" because I I think that's a bit of a smoke screen. Meaning, whether they pick and choose their scores, as you would have them, of roll 3d6 straight down matters little. Especially when your point of being able to kill a character no matter what their scores are is considered. Where I differ is I want more verisimilitude in my world, by having the PCs be created theoretically the same way as everyone else inn the world. That's my point about a character's deeds really defining the character.

But in the end, you do it your way, and I do it mine, and we both have a good time. That's what matters! :)
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by jdizzy001 »

I do 3d6 reroll ones. This last go round I allowed seven rolls and six were permitted for use. In this case it meant a 9 was dropped for a 10 in each player. So mechanically, it did nothing.
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Kayolan »

My opinion is that attributes are not the be all and end all of your character. Yes, create the character you like: assign attributes, choose alignment, race, class etc. But no, you don't get to have high attributes unless you roll them. For crying out loud, do what you can with the attributes the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys, those that can take those attributes and do their best with them and still have fun and play in a sportsmanlike fashion and those that will whine and complain about it because they didn't get the super attributes they wanted and go home. :twisted:

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Treebore »

If attributes are so unimportant, then why do you guys insist on such control of them? If they do not "matter", then why refuse to let the players have total control? The reason is they do matter enough to you to not give up control of it being done as YOU see fit. If it truly does not matter to YOU, you would not worry about what attributes the PC's have, or how they are arrived at. Since you do worry about it, and maintain control of it, it obviously does matter to you.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Kayolan
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Kayolan »

Treebore wrote:If attributes are so unimportant, then why do you guys insist on such control of them? If they do not "matter", then why refuse to let the players have total control? The reason is they do matter enough to you to not give up control of it being done as YOU see fit. If it truly does not matter to YOU, you would not worry about what attributes the PC's have, or how they are arrived at. Since you do worry about it, and maintain control of it, it obviously does matter to you.
They don't matter to me. The reason I do it is because it's part of the game and I like C&C as it's written.

I like the game without changing it, it's not about control.

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Treebore »

Kayolan wrote:
Treebore wrote:If attributes are so unimportant, then why do you guys insist on such control of them? If they do not "matter", then why refuse to let the players have total control? The reason is they do matter enough to you to not give up control of it being done as YOU see fit. If it truly does not matter to YOU, you would not worry about what attributes the PC's have, or how they are arrived at. Since you do worry about it, and maintain control of it, it obviously does matter to you.
They don't matter to me. The reason I do it is because it's part of the game and I like C&C as it's written.

I like the game without changing it, it's not about control.
Rules are all about control. Telling players they can generate attributes however they like is about removing control. You follow a rule, your being controlled, boxed in, limited. You remove rules, you have freedom, your not contained in a box, your not limited. So I give my players as much freedom and lack of control as I can and still have a "game". Over all, its a very small concession.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Kayolan
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Kayolan »

Treebore wrote:
Kayolan wrote:
Treebore wrote:If attributes are so unimportant, then why do you guys insist on such control of them? If they do not "matter", then why refuse to let the players have total control? The reason is they do matter enough to you to not give up control of it being done as YOU see fit. If it truly does not matter to YOU, you would not worry about what attributes the PC's have, or how they are arrived at. Since you do worry about it, and maintain control of it, it obviously does matter to you.
They don't matter to me. The reason I do it is because it's part of the game and I like C&C as it's written.

I like the game without changing it, it's not about control.
Rules are all about control. Telling players they can generate attributes however they like is about removing control. You follow a rule, your being controlled, boxed in, limited. You remove rules, you have freedom, your not contained in a box, your not limited. So I give my players as much freedom and lack of control as I can and still have a "game". Over all, its a very small concession.
I run a C&C game as it's written. The players have a lot of fun in it and so do I, that's all that matters.

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Treebore »

Kayolan wrote:
Treebore wrote:
Kayolan wrote:
Treebore wrote:If attributes are so unimportant, then why do you guys insist on such control of them? If they do not "matter", then why refuse to let the players have total control? The reason is they do matter enough to you to not give up control of it being done as YOU see fit. If it truly does not matter to YOU, you would not worry about what attributes the PC's have, or how they are arrived at. Since you do worry about it, and maintain control of it, it obviously does matter to you.
They don't matter to me. The reason I do it is because it's part of the game and I like C&C as it's written.

I like the game without changing it, it's not about control.
Rules are all about control. Telling players they can generate attributes however they like is about removing control. You follow a rule, your being controlled, boxed in, limited. You remove rules, you have freedom, your not contained in a box, your not limited. So I give my players as much freedom and lack of control as I can and still have a "game". Over all, its a very small concession.
I run a C&C game as it's written. The players have a lot of fun in it and so do I, that's all that matters.
I agree, as I have said many times, the fun is all that really matters. Which is still why I give my players the freedom to create the character however they wish, because that is far more fun than being stuck with results you really don't like. Just because you can have rather lousy stats and still have a good time doesn't change the fact that the character isn't what you wanted it to be. I once played a character that had all 13's and 14's for its stats. Did I have a good time playing the game with everyone? Yes. Was I happy that my character had nothing but 13's and 14's. No. Sure, he had some positive modifiers (I think this was a 2E D&D game), but I still didn't like him because I never envision playing an average, or slightly above average character. I always envision someone who is very capable at what they do, arguably among the best at what they do. So that is why I ensure the player will ALWAYS be able to play what they envision. They have total freedom to choose race, class, sex, height, weight, hair color and eye color, write their origins, decide on parentage, who is still alive, dead, etc... interest and goals of their character, so why not their scores?

The only thing I restrict is alignment, because I am not going to risk having my games ruined like they have in the past when I didn't restrict alignment. Games are meant to be fun, for EVERYONE, so that is my goal, and why I do things the way I do. A players character is NOT about what I think, its not about how I think they should be created, its my PLAYERS character, so I give them total control of what that character is capable of doing and being, as long as they don't play in a way that ruins the fun for others. Thats my over riding rule, don't ruin the fun for others.

Just I have gotten to the point where I have accepted the fact that if I tell my players how they MUST generate their attribute scores, that is about me, and how I think characters should be created. So I have done my best to make character creation all about what my players want and how they want their character to be.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Kayolan
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Kayolan »

Treebore wrote:
Kayolan wrote:
Treebore wrote:
Kayolan wrote:
Treebore wrote:If attributes are so unimportant, then why do you guys insist on such control of them? If they do not "matter", then why refuse to let the players have total control? The reason is they do matter enough to you to not give up control of it being done as YOU see fit. If it truly does not matter to YOU, you would not worry about what attributes the PC's have, or how they are arrived at. Since you do worry about it, and maintain control of it, it obviously does matter to you.
They don't matter to me. The reason I do it is because it's part of the game and I like C&C as it's written.

I like the game without changing it, it's not about control.
Rules are all about control. Telling players they can generate attributes however they like is about removing control. You follow a rule, your being controlled, boxed in, limited. You remove rules, you have freedom, your not contained in a box, your not limited. So I give my players as much freedom and lack of control as I can and still have a "game". Over all, its a very small concession.
I run a C&C game as it's written. The players have a lot of fun in it and so do I, that's all that matters.
I agree, as I have said many times, the fun is all that really matters. Which is still why I give my players the freedom to create the character however they wish, because that is far more fun than being stuck with results you really don't like. Just because you can have rather lousy stats and still have a good time doesn't change the fact that the character isn't what you wanted it to be. I once played a character that had all 13's and 14's for its stats. Did I have a good time playing the game with everyone? Yes. Was I happy that my character had nothing but 13's and 14's. No. Sure, he had some positive modifiers (I think this was a 2E D&D game), but I still didn't like him because I never envision playing an average, or slightly above average character. I always envision someone who is very capable at what they do, arguably among the best at what they do. So that is why I ensure the player will ALWAYS be able to play what they envision. They have total freedom to choose race, class, sex, height, weight, hair color and eye color, write their origins, decide on parentage, who is still alive, dead, etc... interest and goals of their character, so why not their scores?

The only thing I restrict is alignment, because I am not going to risk having my games ruined like they have in the past when I didn't restrict alignment. Games are meant to be fun, for EVERYONE, so that is my goal, and why I do things the way I do. A players character is NOT about what I think, its not about how I think they should be created, its my PLAYERS character, so I give them total control of what that character is capable of doing and being, as long as they don't play in a way that ruins the fun for others. Thats my over riding rule, don't ruin the fun for others.

Just I have gotten to the point where I have accepted the fact that if I tell my players how they MUST generate their attribute scores, that is about me, and how I think characters should be created. So I have done my best to make character creation all about what my players want and how they want their character to be.
Treebore I think you have the most liberal view of character attribute generation I've ever seen. We are pretty much diametrically opposed to each other on this point, but I respect your views.

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Buttmonkey »

I like part of the Hackmaster approach. You keep the rolls you get, but you only have to play the PC for one session. You can always roll up a replacement next week (assuming you play that often).
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by slimykuotoan »

Kayolan wrote:For crying out loud, do what you can with the attributes the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys...
Lol, you tell 'em Kayolan!
For crying out loud, do what you can with the attributes the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan

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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Kersus »

Current campaign was BtB. I intended to not let them do that "place your stats wherever you want them" but didn't realize it was in there until the characters were made. In the end, no one has any high stats. I think the highest is 14. There are a few low stats.

I personally prefer picking one of these three systems - all of which are rolled in order (no switching) SIWDCCh.

3d6, plus 3 bonus rolls
4d6 dropping lowest
3d6 3 rover points (only used if starting at higher levels)

Still, we've had great fun in the past using just 3d6 straight. I could never wrap my head around switching attribute rolls. An 18? It's in Strength, Yeehaw! <eye roll>.
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Re: Anyone roll ability scores btb?

Post by Harlock »

Wow. Really glad this thread was resurrected. Treebore, you're a genius. Thank you for opening my eyes. I'm about to start a new campaign and allowing the players to choose is a great idea. I know most will roll, because they like some randomness, but I can see them upping some a bit here and there to get the feel they want. Perfect. Thanks again, Treebore and Kersus for bringing this thread back in such a timely manner.
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