Modifying attributes through training
- slimykuotoan
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Modifying attributes through training
It seems to me that -if one desired to add more realism to the game- one would have to acknowledge that real world people often do change their physical and metal abilities through training.
I'm wondering how this could be reflected in game mechanics.
A skill that could be purchased to increase a score?
An x.p. cost to raise an attribute?
Simple roleplay?
Hmm...
I'm wondering how this could be reflected in game mechanics.
A skill that could be purchased to increase a score?
An x.p. cost to raise an attribute?
Simple roleplay?
Hmm...
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
I have been giving a +1 every four levels to an attribute of the player's choice like D&D 3E, but I was doing so in the late 80s. I always felt that adventuring would improve a character's abilities. I now play C&C in a lower magic world with tougher monsters and character level can not ecceed 12 to 15th level based on class. So I now allow +1 to both a physical and mental attribute every four levels that the player selects.
The way I figure it is that at first level a character has the basic skills and fitness to begin in their character class. When a character starts to adventure it would test their fitness by long travel and at times fighting for life and limb. In addition, most adventuring parties are diverse with different clases, which exposes the character to different perspectives. Charters travel and meet and see many places all of which would educate a character.
The way I figure it is that at first level a character has the basic skills and fitness to begin in their character class. When a character starts to adventure it would test their fitness by long travel and at times fighting for life and limb. In addition, most adventuring parties are diverse with different clases, which exposes the character to different perspectives. Charters travel and meet and see many places all of which would educate a character.
- slimykuotoan
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
I like that.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
Re: Modifying attributes through training
Slimey, I give a +1 every 6 levels with a cap of racial maximums.
And you may want to look at how Tree does his.
R-
And you may want to look at how Tree does his.
R-
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- slimykuotoan
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
Hmm. Cool, thanx Rigon!
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
Re: Modifying attributes through training
slimykuotoan wrote:It seems to me that -if one desired to add more realism to the game- one would have to acknowledge that real world people often do change their physical and metal abilities through training.
I'm wondering how this could be reflected in game mechanics.
A skill that could be purchased to increase a score?
An x.p. cost to raise an attribute?
Simple roleplay?
Hmm...
I completely agree with you on the realism of changing scores through training.
I can look at myself and see improvements and changes from training I received in the military and personal decisions I've made. Much more focused and perceptive of things, better read/studied and able to make a more intelligent argument/discussion, and the list could go on.
Sadly, using me as an example, there is a reverse to that too. I see areas where my abilities have lessened over the years too. I'm beat up physically so can't PT like I used to so my strength and speed have decreased, I get sicker easier because I have a perma head cold from all the years of breathing desert dust, etc
As for how to reflect it in the game world ????? I don't know. Does it come with automatic level progression, I know some here do it that way. I can't argue against it, but it may not be the best for this situation. Exp cost, I never like adding exp cost into the game, unless the game is wholly based on spending exp for all the skills improvements, abilities etc. Only role playing, I don't know, there should be some mechanic framework in the game and then the role playing layered on it. So, the rabbit get back around to automatically in level progression.
Of course, I'm far from the smartest egg in this hen house, so I'll let those smarter than I discus the hows and what fors on rules for this.
Speaking on my betters, Rigon just posted his way, and mentioned Tree ...
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
The CKG has some rules in that area.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
Hackmaster Basic has some neat rules for fractional ability scores that might be used to emulate something like this. Basically you roll a percentile dice for every ability score to see how close you are to the next number. So your stats might look something like this:
S: 12/44, I: 15/77, W: 9/21, D: 14/22, Cn: 11/02, Ch: 13/14
Every level you gain fractional points to apply wherever you want to spend them and that is how your ability scores improve, i.e., when you gain the next level when you earn 100 fractional points, so 12/100 becomes 13, etc.
I have never actually played Hackmaster (far too crunchy for my tastes), but I have read through the books and it seemed like a pretty neat rule.
S: 12/44, I: 15/77, W: 9/21, D: 14/22, Cn: 11/02, Ch: 13/14
Every level you gain fractional points to apply wherever you want to spend them and that is how your ability scores improve, i.e., when you gain the next level when you earn 100 fractional points, so 12/100 becomes 13, etc.
I have never actually played Hackmaster (far too crunchy for my tastes), but I have read through the books and it seemed like a pretty neat rule.
- slimykuotoan
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
That is cool.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
Re: Modifying attributes through training
I was going to suggest something similar to this. Roll a d100 after every stat like STR in the old days. Then roll a d10 (or whatever) after every game session. Add that number to whichever /100 you wish.pawndream wrote:Hackmaster Basic has some neat rules for fractional ability scores that might be used to emulate something like this. Basically you roll a percentile dice for every ability score to see how close you are to the next number. So your stats might look something like this:
S: 12/44, I: 15/77, W: 9/21, D: 14/22, Cn: 11/02, Ch: 13/14
Every level you gain fractional points to apply wherever you want to spend them and that is how your ability scores improve, i.e., when you gain the next level when you earn 100 fractional points, so 12/100 becomes 13, etc.
I have never actually played Hackmaster (far too crunchy for my tastes), but I have read through the books and it seemed like a pretty neat rule.
Remember that each attribute point does not grant a bonus (usually it's 2 points = a bonus) so it would be a fairly slow process. On my system, a player would gain 100 fractional points aproximately every 20 sessions. So, a stat bonus approximately every 40 sessions (that seems a wee bit slow). If you want more, make it a d20. If you want less, make it a d8.
You could also give a CK bonus roll whenever the player does something heroic or otherwise awesome to speed it up (and encourage cinematic play).
A really generous version of this (say d20 per session + various CK reward rolls) would work well in a strict 3d6 stat type game (or a low magic game). So PCs start weak, rather than having the big bonuses at 1st which power them up a bit, but over time, their stats are all high and their level grants various bonuses, making them into Conans in the higher level game
- slimykuotoan
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
Hmm, I like the 'roll after each session' idea.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
Re: Modifying attributes through training
The basics of my system is a kind of modified SIEGE check, but it is similar to the check system I have used since my 2E D&D days. First, to even try, the character has to have a month of time to dedicate to trying. So can only occur between adventures. So if they have no time, then they don't get to try. (CK control). Cost is usually 100 GP plus 100 GP per bonus of the attribute they are trying to obtain, per month they attempt to increase an attribute.
So if they are going for an 11, with no bonus given by an 11, its 100 GP per month spent. If they are going for a 18, a +3 bonus, then it is 400 GP/month it takes to succeed.
At the end of each month, they try an attribute check. The CL is calculated by subtracting 10 from whatever the score is they are going for, and they can only increase by one point per attempt. So can only go from 11 to 12, to 13, to 14, and so on. So an 11 is a CL of 1, a 15 is a CL of 5, a 19 (the highest possible score a race can go for) would be a CL 9. I treat all attributes as Prime for purposes of this training check, but feel free to do the Prime and non Prime thing if you wish. Each failed check adds a +1 to their next check, as long as the training continues for CONSECUTIVE months. So if they train for 2 months, and have to go adventure, they lose the bonus for those 2 months. If they get to try for a 3rd straight month, then they get to add a +2 to the check at the end of that 3rd month.
One thing I do NOT allow on the check, is I do not allow the attribute bonus/negative to have an effect. So they add level only.
In my 2E AD&D days, they had to roll the attribute they were working towards or higher on a D20. So if they were going from 14 to a 15, they had to roll a 15 or higher.
So if they are going for an 11, with no bonus given by an 11, its 100 GP per month spent. If they are going for a 18, a +3 bonus, then it is 400 GP/month it takes to succeed.
At the end of each month, they try an attribute check. The CL is calculated by subtracting 10 from whatever the score is they are going for, and they can only increase by one point per attempt. So can only go from 11 to 12, to 13, to 14, and so on. So an 11 is a CL of 1, a 15 is a CL of 5, a 19 (the highest possible score a race can go for) would be a CL 9. I treat all attributes as Prime for purposes of this training check, but feel free to do the Prime and non Prime thing if you wish. Each failed check adds a +1 to their next check, as long as the training continues for CONSECUTIVE months. So if they train for 2 months, and have to go adventure, they lose the bonus for those 2 months. If they get to try for a 3rd straight month, then they get to add a +2 to the check at the end of that 3rd month.
One thing I do NOT allow on the check, is I do not allow the attribute bonus/negative to have an effect. So they add level only.
In my 2E AD&D days, they had to roll the attribute they were working towards or higher on a D20. So if they were going from 14 to a 15, they had to roll a 15 or higher.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
- slimykuotoan
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
Do you mean g.p. or x.p.?
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
Re: Modifying attributes through training
I always figured that when they go up in level, they are usually adding their level to siege checks anyway. That to me is the effects of practice and training; a ninth level fighter is adding 9 to his strength siege check vs. a first level fighter who is only adding 1 for example. Sure, there might a bit of a difference with attribute mods, but I like to keep them the same for the most part. The CKG does give a few bumps to attributes for very high level characters, it's in the write up for each class description. And of course, let's not forget that magic can raise attributes. If we aren't careful, attributes can reach the mid 20's for some characters. That's good for some peoples' games, but for mine I like to not have super hero level attributes unless magic is involved.
- slimykuotoan
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
That's a good point Kayolan.
For crying out loud, do what you can with the rolls the dice have given you. This is what separates the men from the boys... -Kayolan
Re: Modifying attributes through training
It's gp. You have to pay for the training.slimykuotoan wrote:Do you mean g.p. or x.p.?
R-
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
With magic involved, thats going to happen a lot anyways. Look at Enhance Attribute. With that, and an already decently high attribute, your going to be getting up to a 23 or 24, for hours at a time. So its not like its avoidable, unless you assign attribute arrays with nothing higher than a 14. So I have found it is just better to accept it, and to get used to dealing with it, because your going to have to.Kayolan wrote:I always figured that when they go up in level, they are usually adding their level to siege checks anyway. That to me is the effects of practice and training; a ninth level fighter is adding 9 to his strength siege check vs. a first level fighter who is only adding 1 for example. Sure, there might a bit of a difference with attribute mods, but I like to keep them the same for the most part. The CKG does give a few bumps to attributes for very high level characters, it's in the write up for each class description. And of course, let's not forget that magic can raise attributes. If we aren't careful, attributes can reach the mid 20's for some characters. That's good for some peoples' games, but for mine I like to not have super hero level attributes unless magic is involved.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
An oft overlooked situation with the Seige Engine. Good point there.Kayolan wrote:I always figured that when they go up in level, they are usually adding their level to siege checks anyway. That to me is the effects of practice and training; a ninth level fighter is adding 9 to his strength siege check vs. a first level fighter who is only adding 1 for example. Sure, there might a bit of a difference with attribute mods, but I like to keep them the same for the most part. The CKG does give a few bumps to attributes for very high level characters, it's in the write up for each class description. And of course, let's not forget that magic can raise attributes. If we aren't careful, attributes can reach the mid 20's for some characters. That's good for some peoples' games, but for mine I like to not have super hero level attributes unless magic is involved.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
Well, a "decently high attribute" in your terms is an 18 or 19, which isn't a decently high attribute imo, it's the highest you can have normally. It's only if you also start adding points on top of this maximum amount that you will get scores reaching and passing the mid 20's mark. I just see it as a needless inflation of attribute scores to ridiculous levels. The game already provides for attribute increases, so why make it even more common?Treebore wrote:With magic involved, thats going to happen a lot anyways. Look at Enhance Attribute. With that, and an already decently high attribute, your going to be getting up to a 23 or 24, for hours at a time. So its not like its avoidable, unless you assign attribute arrays with nothing higher than a 14. So I have found it is just better to accept it, and to get used to dealing with it, because your going to have to.Kayolan wrote:I always figured that when they go up in level, they are usually adding their level to siege checks anyway. That to me is the effects of practice and training; a ninth level fighter is adding 9 to his strength siege check vs. a first level fighter who is only adding 1 for example. Sure, there might a bit of a difference with attribute mods, but I like to keep them the same for the most part. The CKG does give a few bumps to attributes for very high level characters, it's in the write up for each class description. And of course, let's not forget that magic can raise attributes. If we aren't careful, attributes can reach the mid 20's for some characters. That's good for some peoples' games, but for mine I like to not have super hero level attributes unless magic is involved.
As far as the spell you mention goes, yeah it's a shame that it's 1 hr. /level and not 1 min./level. C&C followed the spells that enhanced attributes the way D&D 3.0 did it, vs. the way it was done in 3.5.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
We've not gotten there yet, but simple seems OK by me... +1 per every X levels. I kind of like it being fixed at every four levels or so. Detailed play between games, between adventures are fantastic but seems hard to keep track of... but I like the roll playing, the setting, and the way to make it all work within and around the game.
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
Well, I don't allow them to go above their racial max without magic either, so I've just gotten used to dealing with it, like Osahar giving themselves a super high CHA whenever you guys need to interrogate someone.Kayolan wrote:Well, a "decently high attribute" in your terms is an 18 or 19, which isn't a decently high attribute imo, it's the highest you can have normally. It's only if you also start adding points on top of this maximum amount that you will get scores reaching and passing the mid 20's mark. I just see it as a needless inflation of attribute scores to ridiculous levels. The game already provides for attribute increases, so why make it even more common?Treebore wrote:With magic involved, thats going to happen a lot anyways. Look at Enhance Attribute. With that, and an already decently high attribute, your going to be getting up to a 23 or 24, for hours at a time. So its not like its avoidable, unless you assign attribute arrays with nothing higher than a 14. So I have found it is just better to accept it, and to get used to dealing with it, because your going to have to.Kayolan wrote:I always figured that when they go up in level, they are usually adding their level to siege checks anyway. That to me is the effects of practice and training; a ninth level fighter is adding 9 to his strength siege check vs. a first level fighter who is only adding 1 for example. Sure, there might a bit of a difference with attribute mods, but I like to keep them the same for the most part. The CKG does give a few bumps to attributes for very high level characters, it's in the write up for each class description. And of course, let's not forget that magic can raise attributes. If we aren't careful, attributes can reach the mid 20's for some characters. That's good for some peoples' games, but for mine I like to not have super hero level attributes unless magic is involved.
As far as the spell you mention goes, yeah it's a shame that it's 1 hr. /level and not 1 min./level. C&C followed the spells that enhanced attributes the way D&D 3.0 did it, vs. the way it was done in 3.5.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
Putting a limit on it makes sense, especially with all the bonuses you can get with magic items stacked on top of an enhanced attribute spell. Take an elven PC with an 19 Dex prime, with gloves of dexterity +6, and then enhanced attribute roll of the max (+5). You now have a character with a Dex of 30! So, actually your limit is just about right. Unless of course you let other Dex bonus magic items stack, not sure if there are other ones that do that for Dex, but they could be created possibly.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
I don't know that I would allow an enhanced attribute spell to stack with gloves of dex. It's basically the same thing and in my rules, similar magics don't stack, they overlap. So in your example, the elf would still only have a dex of 25. Now if his gloves of dex were +4 and he was enhanced with the max +5, then his dex would go up another one for the duration of the spell.Kayolan wrote:Putting a limit on it makes sense, especially with all the bonuses you can get with magic items stacked on top of an enhanced attribute spell. Take an elven PC with an 19 Dex prime, with gloves of dexterity +6, and then enhanced attribute roll of the max (+5). You now have a character with a Dex of 30! So, actually your limit is just about right. Unless of course you let other Dex bonus magic items stack, not sure if there are other ones that do that for Dex, but they could be created possibly.
R-
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
That's a sound ruling, and in my games I would do the same (is that in the rules anywhere I wonder, or just a grey area).Rigon wrote:I don't know that I would allow an enhanced attribute spell to stack with gloves of dex. It's basically the same thing and in my rules, similar magics don't stack, they overlap. So in your example, the elf would still only have a dex of 25. Now if his gloves of dex were +4 and he was enhanced with the max +5, then his dex would go up another one for the duration of the spell.Kayolan wrote:Putting a limit on it makes sense, especially with all the bonuses you can get with magic items stacked on top of an enhanced attribute spell. Take an elven PC with an 19 Dex prime, with gloves of dexterity +6, and then enhanced attribute roll of the max (+5). You now have a character with a Dex of 30! So, actually your limit is just about right. Unless of course you let other Dex bonus magic items stack, not sure if there are other ones that do that for Dex, but they could be created possibly.
R-
Re: Modifying attributes through training
Yep, thats why I pretty much follow the 3E bonus stacking rules, for weapons, armor, spells and magic items.Rigon wrote:I don't know that I would allow an enhanced attribute spell to stack with gloves of dex. It's basically the same thing and in my rules, similar magics don't stack, they overlap. So in your example, the elf would still only have a dex of 25. Now if his gloves of dex were +4 and he was enhanced with the max +5, then his dex would go up another one for the duration of the spell.Kayolan wrote:Putting a limit on it makes sense, especially with all the bonuses you can get with magic items stacked on top of an enhanced attribute spell. Take an elven PC with an 19 Dex prime, with gloves of dexterity +6, and then enhanced attribute roll of the max (+5). You now have a character with a Dex of 30! So, actually your limit is just about right. Unless of course you let other Dex bonus magic items stack, not sure if there are other ones that do that for Dex, but they could be created possibly.
R-
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
I use the burning wheel system for attribute increases. If the pc performs an exceptional feat or rolls a nat 20 for their check, I award them a xp check mark. At the end of the adventuring year (usually this occurs every other session when the pc's go home for yule tide) they apply the xp they've gained and can level up. Additionally, they may spend any xp check marks they've earned. To spend a check mark the player declares they are spending a check mark, removes the mark from their character sheet, declares which stat they are trying to improve, then rolls a d20.
If the pc wishes, they may spend a second check mark to award themselves a +1 bonus to their check mark roll. No other modifiers may be applied, and no more then 2 check marks may be spent on a single roll.
Once the die has been cast compare your result to the stat in question, if the roll equals or exceeds your current attribute value, the attribute increases by 1 point.
If a pc has lots of checks to spend they may attempt to increase each attribute once per game year but that is it. The pc's arent allowed to spend all of their check marks on a single attribute and take three attempts to increase str. Although, I am thinking of forgoing the last rule.
If the pc wishes, they may spend a second check mark to award themselves a +1 bonus to their check mark roll. No other modifiers may be applied, and no more then 2 check marks may be spent on a single roll.
Once the die has been cast compare your result to the stat in question, if the roll equals or exceeds your current attribute value, the attribute increases by 1 point.
If a pc has lots of checks to spend they may attempt to increase each attribute once per game year but that is it. The pc's arent allowed to spend all of their check marks on a single attribute and take three attempts to increase str. Although, I am thinking of forgoing the last rule.
Re: Modifying attributes through training
Every class has the option to train. Choosing to train has various choices that become available, depending on the time and cost put into it. Increasing an attribute is not an immediate thing.... if you want to go up a point of Strength, it will take more than "oh, I gained a level."
So, in that way, no. No training directly. In others... absolutely.
So, in that way, no. No training directly. In others... absolutely.
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Re: Modifying attributes through training
I like the idea of very slowly increasing attributes, but I would think by about 5th level or so, this might stabilize and even start dropping. You'd have your level bonus to compensate.
By slowly increasing attributes, I mean using percentage on each one and adding anywhere from 1d3 to 1d20 based on situation.
Perhaps just integrating this all into Fate Points or Joss.
1 Joss adds 1d6 percentage points to an attribute, avoids a hit, reverses a failed save, does max damage, avoids death - bringing PC to 1hp, +d12 hp, +200xlevel exp.
By slowly increasing attributes, I mean using percentage on each one and adding anywhere from 1d3 to 1d20 based on situation.
Perhaps just integrating this all into Fate Points or Joss.
1 Joss adds 1d6 percentage points to an attribute, avoids a hit, reverses a failed save, does max damage, avoids death - bringing PC to 1hp, +d12 hp, +200xlevel exp.
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