Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

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tylermo
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Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by tylermo »

Hi, guys. For a couple of years now, I have heard a few upper 20 to lower 30-somethings (at a local game store) say they want somebody to run Tombs of Horror. I guess they've heard about the reputation this module has. These guys are mainly PF/3E, and maybe one of them played a bit of 2E. Mind you, a couple of these guys are ones that I was unable to convert to C&C. Anyway, I heard ToH talked about again recently. I told one of the guys I'd give it a go, but it would be through C&C. I played some 1E and basic/expert in the 80's, then even more 2/2.5 in the 90's, but I would definitely have to bone up to run this through the older systems. I don't think these guys have ever indicated a system preference. My thought, is that C&C would be the way to go. I do have the old module in the WOTC premium compilation, but have never gm'd it. Can't remember if I played through it back in the day or not. It's not monster heavy, so I'm wondering about the conversion process from D&D 1E to C&C on this one. Looks like it's levels 10-14, I think. Help?

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Arduin »

Look at pages 11 & 12 in the Mod. The players you are talking about should be considered Novice if they are coming from the 3.x games. How many PCs? If there are 6-8 I'd say 12-14th level.
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Fiffergrund »

Recommendation #1, Prior to Anything Else

Make them play C&C with other modules first. Preferably a good 3-4 game sessions, at LEAST.

The paradigm they are used to - that it must be on the character sheet in order to do it - will kill them in ToH quicker than the sphere of annihilation.
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by pawndream »

Probably the biggest issue with running a conversion will be that Saving Throws work differently in 1e, i.e., it is easier to save at higher levels in 1e...not so much in C&C.

As an example, a 10th level fighter's in 1e save numbers are: 8, 9, 10, 9 11. By RAW, in C&C, those numbers are 12 or 18. Sure, the C&C fighter gets to add his/her level and stat modifier, but that doesn't account for the CL (which will probably be somewhere near 6-10, if you are assuming most of the saves in Tomb of Horrors are considered difficult tasks.

Assuming as a CK you will be assigning CLs to all those saves that are called for in (which I vaguely recall there being a lot), the lethality will probably be higher in C&C.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Aramis »

tylermo wrote:Hi, guys. For a couple of years now, I have heard a few upper 20 to lower 30-somethings (at a local game store) say they want somebody to run Tombs of Horror. I guess they've heard about the reputation this module has. These guys are mainly PF/3E, and maybe one of them played a bit of 2E. Mind you, a couple of these guys are ones that I was unable to convert to C&C. Anyway, I heard ToH talked about again recently. I told one of the guys I'd give it a go, but it would be through C&C. I played some 1E and basic/expert in the 80's, then even more 2/2.5 in the 90's, but I would definitely have to bone up to run this through the older systems. I don't think these guys have ever indicated a system preference. My thought, is that C&C would be the way to go. I do have the old module in the WOTC premium compilation, but have never gm'd it. Can't remember if I played through it back in the day or not. It's not monster heavy, so I'm wondering about the conversion process from D&D 1E to C&C on this one. Looks like it's levels 10-14, I think. Help?
I can run you through Tomb of Horrors right now, if you want.

Everybody dies. The end

Want to play it again?

;-)

The one thing to watch for in converting high level 1e is the saves. In 1e the saves were easier as you leveled up, whereas C&C scale with level. So non primes stay at a high failure rate. When the saves are save or die, that's kind of a big deal :-)

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by tylermo »

Yeah. This one seems like quite a bit of work for a death-fest. I'm sure they've heard all sorts of wondrous things about ToH, and I believe they are aware of the lethality. I wasn't really hoping to win any of them over with this. They're pretty enamored with PF, and they're finding a few things they like with 5E anyway. Outside of saves or the odd monster not covered in C&C, I was hoping to have something a bit more straight forward, but ToH is about the only OLD school mod I've heard mentioned by them. I was pretty sure it wouldn't be suitable, and I don't desire to go back and re-learn 1E to run a one-off. ;)

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by pawndream »

tylermo wrote:Yeah. This one seems like quite a bit of work for a death-fest. I'm sure they've heard all sorts of wondrous things about ToH, and I believe they are aware of the lethality. I wasn't really hoping to win any of them over with this. They're pretty enamored with PF, and they're finding a few things they like with 5E anyway. Outside of saves or the odd monster not covered in C&C, I was hoping to have something a bit more straight forward, but ToH is about the only OLD school mod I've heard mentioned by them. I was pretty sure it wouldn't be suitable, and I don't desire to go back and re-learn 1E to run a one-off. ;)
You don't really need to re-learn 1e to run this module. My advice would be to run it using a game like Labyrinth Lord Advanced Edition Characters. Same great taste. Less mechanics to deal with.

Alternatively, you could use C&C and port over the Saving Throws from 1e. Just use SIEGE for skill checks.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

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I have LL, but I'd probably still use C&C. I'll have to revisit 1E savings throws, and make sure the players (if we actually do this) make the right kinds of characters. I guess I'll have to work out all of the particulars, such as eye-balling cl's for various encounters, etc. After checking one my flash drives, I found my pdf copy of ToH. My premium edition hardcover of Dungeons of Dread is signed by seven TSR contributors (Lawrence Schick, James Ward, Jeff Easley, Jeff Dee, David "Diesel" LaForce, Darlene, and Frank Mentzer), and I didn't want to use it.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

THIS.

If you want to sell them on C&C, a module (awesome as it is) with an at least 90% kill rate probably isn’t the best, unless they know what they’re getting into.

That being said, I think it’d be pretty easy to convert to C&C. In many ways, the rules of Tomb of Horrors are secondary to using every ounce of your wits and brain (okay, that and there are so many instant death moments that rules won’t matter).

I’ve played with the idea of telling my gaming group they can use any edition/D&D-related game to make a character of the appropriate level and then running the resulting mish-mash through Tomb of Horrors.
Fiffergrund wrote:Recommendation #1, Prior to Anything Else

Make them play C&C with other modules first. Preferably a good 3-4 game sessions, at LEAST.

The paradigm they are used to - that it must be on the character sheet in order to do it - will kill them in ToH quicker than the sphere of annihilation.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by mgtremaine »

OT: Goodman Games put out The Dread Crypt of Srihoz for C&C, it's an omage to ToH . It's pretty crazy hard also.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by tylermo »

Some of them were already less than thrilled with C&C, so I wasn't hopeful to win anybody over. I just thought it might be a way to interest them by running ToH. That said it's crazy difficult, and I don't know if I want to put the work in on this one. I'm not sure, but are players in ToH to use spells, etc. in unconventional ways? More of an out-of-the box, not contained in the rules sort of fashion?

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by tylermo »

I remember Shiroz. Was that 3.5 DCC's or the later modules for the DCC rpg?

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Buttmonkey »

I don't think converting to C&C has to be difficult at all. The monsters should port over on the fly just like any other 1E monsters (assuming there isn't a C&C translation already). As for the saving throw disparity, just give your PCs a bonus to their saving throws (or, coming at it from the other direction, just lower the CL a little (or a lot)). Don't overthink it.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Snoring Rock »

There are few monsters to convert in ToH. I think a mummy and a construct of some kind and then the Demi-Lich. The traps are all magical and do not work like they normally would. I would set CL 12-14 to all saves and match the affects to something close in C&C right out of the PHB. Easy conversion. It will still be a death trap of a TPK. But a fun evening.

Srihoz is survivable and can be played in a campaign. ToH is for a tourney or one night off kind of thing. With some work it could be a part of something on-going. Tough as written though.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

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tylermo wrote:Hi, guys. For a couple of years now, I have heard a few upper 20 to lower 30-somethings (at a local game store) say they want somebody to run Tombs of Horror. I guess they've heard about the reputation this module has. These guys are mainly PF/3E, and maybe one of them played a bit of 2E. Mind you, a couple of these guys are ones that I was unable to convert to C&C. Anyway, I heard ToH talked about again recently. I told one of the guys I'd give it a go, but it would be through C&C.
I'd just let it be known (via whatever mechanism at that game store) that you are going to run ToH using the C&C rules set in X number of weeks. Sign up here if you want in. You'll get players.
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Arduin »

P.S. The Demilich is in Classic Monsters. :)
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

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Thanks, guys. Clovis, is there something in ToH about magic users' spells being used in non-traditional ways to work against various things that will plague the chracters? I think pg. 9 of the module shows certain spells having unusual effects on a bleeding valve. Anyway, I'll also look closely at the list of suggested character types, make sure any magic items match up with C&C counterparts, and adjust negative AC's if needed. I haven't tried to do this sort of thing with older adventures before, but I suppose it will work. If I get this off of the ground, I'll put the good advice to use.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Arduin »

tylermo wrote:I think pg. 9 of the module shows certain spells having unusual effects on a bleeding valve.
flow of blood, as will a heal, 2 cure serious wounds, or 4 cure
light wounds spells. If magic is used against the blood, only the
following spells will have any effect:
Spell Results
cone of cold freezes blood and flow for 3 rounds
create water turns blood to normal water
disintegrate destroys all blood
levitate coagulates the blood and moves it upwards to
become a huge red ochre jelly
polymorph creates 3-12 wights which attack
purify water turns all blood to a gas which weakens all in the
area to 3 strength for 1 day
raise dead/ either spell destroys the blood and will bring a
resurrection shade to stand on the top stair and bless all the
party so that they regain up to 10 lost hit points
each and are completely refreshed
Fire of any sort, magical or otherwise, turns the blood to a poison
gas which is absolutely fatal, and all characters in the foyer area
are dead, with no saving throw,
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

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Arduin, I suspect I'll get at least two or three players (the younger guys who have made a big deal out of ToH), despite them not caring for C&C much. Otherwise, I am the old man (almost 44) at the store. Until recently, there was another guy who was just a bit older. Most of these guys are 30's on down. PF, Magic, Vanguard, D&D 5, etc.

Thanks for the heads up on the demilich. I hadn't pulled out my books yet, but I was certain there was one for C&C.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Arduin »

tylermo wrote:Arduin, I suspect I'll get at least two or three players (the younger guys who have made a big deal out of ToH), despite them not caring for C&C much. Otherwise, I am the old man (almost 44) at the store. Until recently, there was another guy who was just a bit older. Most of these guys are 30's on down. PF, Magic, Vanguard, D&D 5, etc.

Thanks for the heads up on the demilich. I hadn't pulled out my books yet, but I was certain there was one for C&C.
Now I feel old. I WISH I was 44.

Anyway, back in the day when I started out playing, every once in a while luck would smile and you'd get invited to play in a game run by Dave Hargrave. I'll tell you, these guys that have grown up playing 3.x type of games would probably actually faint if they played in one of Dave's games. :lol:
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by tylermo »

At this particular store, 44 is old. That other guy that used to come around should be pushing 45 by now. A very few customers are late teens, but mostly 20's to mid-30's maybe. There could be the odd late 30's person to be sure.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by serleran »

Any easy option to make things more lethal is simply to deny Prime saves in some situations.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by tylermo »

I don't think I'll want to make things more lethal, but I appreciate the tip.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by mgtremaine »

serleran wrote:Any easy option to make things more lethal is simply to deny Prime saves in some situations.
Or make them use a 12 sider for saves ;)

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Lurker »

Aramis wrote:



I can run you through Tomb of Horrors right now, if you want.

Everybody dies. The end

Want to play it again?

;-)

...
Rgr that !!!

I have a very vague memory from way back in the day of it ... I don't remember it lasting long :lol:
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Treebore »

Just be aware there is one spell in particular that makes the dungeon MUCH easier to survive, and the higher the level you have them be, the more likely it is they will have it. So if you want it to be the meat grinder its reputation has it being, have them be 10th to 11th level. That or PM me for the spell to make sure they don't have.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Snoring Rock »

tylermo wrote:Thanks, guys. Clovis, is there something in ToH about magic users' spells being used in non-traditional ways to work against various things that will plague the chracters? I think pg. 9 of the module shows certain spells having unusual effects on a bleeding valve. Anyway, I'll also look closely at the list of suggested character types, make sure any magic items match up with C&C counterparts, and adjust negative AC's if needed. I haven't tried to do this sort of thing with older adventures before, but I suppose it will work. If I get this off of the ground, I'll put the good advice to use.
Not really. The traps in the ToH are very specific and not really covered in the books. I do not have the module with me now, so I cannot give the best examples, but there is a hall of drawings that has spheres that are portals or cause death effects with saves that are detailed in the module. There just are no escapes for the death. Many times it comes down to a roll of the dice on a save.

If you want to make it survivable, replace the save or die specific effects into magical spell effects right out of the PHB instead, that resemble what is in the module. Playing C&C using the "specific to the module" effects with un-seasoned D20-generation-players, will turn them off to C&C for another generation.

I am not saying to nerf it, just use "by the book" effects for the traps instead. It will still be deadly.

THIS:

(from Arduin above)

flow of blood, as will a heal, 2 cure serious wounds, or 4 cure
light wounds spells. If magic is used against the blood, only the
following spells will have any effect:
Spell Results
cone of cold freezes blood and flow for 3 rounds
create water turns blood to normal water
disintegrate destroys all blood
levitate coagulates the blood and moves it upwards to
become a huge red ochre jelly
polymorph creates 3-12 wights which attack
purify water turns all blood to a gas which weakens all in the
area to 3 strength for 1 day
raise dead/ either spell destroys the blood and will bring a
resurrection shade to stand on the top stair and bless all the
party so that they regain up to 10 lost hit points
each and are completely refreshed
Fire of any sort, magical or otherwise, turns the blood to a poison
gas which is absolutely fatal, and all characters in the foyer area
are dead, with no saving throw,

= 3.5 players seen leaving the room.

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Arduin »

Snoring Rock wrote:[
= 3.5 players seen leaving the room.
Or = reaching for yet another pair of shorts...
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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by Snoring Rock »

:lol:

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Re: Tomb of Horrors for C&C?

Post by serleran »

Tomb of Horrors is among my favorite modules but I do not think, a dedicated and clever party with a complement of allies, would necessarily be wiped out. It does take a lot of care and planning, though, but I have had successful escapes (not necessarily full victories) with level 1 PCs and complete obliteration with those of level 20.

In any event, to make it as C&C-ified as possible, consider the option to make some traps act as SR checks -- not a save really, but equal chance for anything affected to be so. Like... the mouth has a 17:20. Roll under it and die.

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