Well, it happened again, gents

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
Treebore
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote:I hear you on the color version. I prefer my 4th printing, but my dad swiped it from me because he has bad eyesight and the 5th printing is impossible for him. I am told the contrast in the 6th printing will be greatly improved. Nothing wrong with you waiting to see how it actually looks before dropping your hard earned gold pieces.
They are going to handle the contrast issue on the new color versions. That was mentioned about a week go.
I hope so, I don't even use my color copies because its a challenge to read what is there. My kids and their young eyes use those. Their announcement about addressing it, in addition to fixing all the errata, etc... are the only reasons I am even in on the new KS.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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MrGrim
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by MrGrim »

Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote:I hear you on the color version. I prefer my 4th printing, but my dad swiped it from me because he has bad eyesight and the 5th printing is impossible for him. I am told the contrast in the 6th printing will be greatly improved. Nothing wrong with you waiting to see how it actually looks before dropping your hard earned gold pieces.
They are going to handle the contrast issue on the new color versions. That was mentioned about a week go.
I hope so, I don't even use my color copies because its a challenge to read what is there. My kids and their young eyes use those. Their announcement about addressing it, in addition to fixing all the errata, etc... are the only reasons I am even in on the new KS.
I was late purchasing the 5th printing as I only got it a month ago. I'd been using the 4th printing. However, the contrast was so bad in the one I had, I returned it to Amazon. I think maybe it was the one I had in particular (like an ink problem on that particular run) as everyone would be wailing if theirs came like mine did. I saw a youtube review of someone else's 5th printing and it did indeed look much better than the one I had.

I'm looking forward to the 6th printing. Improving the contrast and bumping up the font size...that's going to be a massive improvement. The one thing I wish they'd also do is bump up the paper quality and do something amazing with the cover art. I'd definitely pay more for higher quality. Shucks, the last RPG book I purchased was $99.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Shadowslayer »

I have a 5th printing. I'm not sure what everyone else is getting at, but I'm not having a problem reading it at all....and I have horrible eyes even for a 43 year old.

Yeah the background is a little odd....I assume that to discourage pdf ers? But no prob to read it.

Worst was actually those old 1e FR sourcebooks with the brown font and mottled yellow paper.)

BudaZoa
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by BudaZoa »

I am proud to say that after over a year of running my CnC campaign, it is finally catching on in the Dallas Texas area.

I have lost a few players but for every player I have lost or asked to leave, there are at least three new players wanting that spot.

I use a meet up group and my campaign highlights have more than ten times the views of any other thread on the site.


When I first started looking for a campaign to play in and run, no one in this area knew what CnC was except for one other member on these forums. Since then, I have actually join the other forum members campaign (as a player) and have successfully run my CnC campaign for over a year now while drawing great interest in castles and Crusades.

It is to the point where multiple members have said we should rush the next North Texas rpg con. I am seriously considering getting a table and runnin the show CnC style. I know of at least six players who would attend if I ran the Table.


To people who are stubborn and want their old ways... "Let them eat cake"


There are plenty of oldschool players who are waiting for a system like CnC, go out and find them !


I don’t even play in any of the 1ed campaigns I used to run with. I can easily find those games around my way, and most are using great systems but I am a Castles and Crusades guy.


LONG LIVE THE CRUSADE !


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Buttmonkey
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Buttmonkey »

That is a great thing to hear. I suspect being in a larger metro area like Dallas helps significantly with locating players, though.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

MrGrim
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by MrGrim »

This week I put together an online group for weekly sessions of OD&D. I got 7 players in only three days advertising on the "Looking for Group" forum on roll20.net. This morning I;m having to turn additional players away. I am refreshingly surprised at how easy it has been to find people wanting to give old school gaming a try.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Omote »

Many players like and love v3.5 and Pathfinder. Heck, there is part of me that does too. I know a great many of those players, and their GMs and if you pay attention, you'll begin to notice something. Of those v3.5/Pathfinder players and GMs, it seems to me that they play less often me and my groups do with C&C. Also, some of those other players and particularly GMs cancel or change game sessions dates much more. Those same groups are almost always playing lower level characters (I have yet to see any v3.5/Pathfinder groups playing 8+ level characters in a very long time), and essentially never any "epic" level games other than a one-shot or two. The people who tend to run (GM) v3.5/Pathfinder on a regular basis (campaigns) are of lower income, lower job hierarchy, or temporarily unemployed. Heh, now that I think about it, I think some of the Pathfinder GMs I see running the game have no kids to worry about.

This is just my observations of the people I know, and people at my FLGS who play these games. I am not saying that every group is like this or every GM is in the same situation. But it sure seems to me, that the people I see who play, but more so the people who GM v3.5/Pathfinder regularly, have a significant amount more free time on their hands to play these games.

I played and ran v3.5 for probably 5 years. When Pathfinder came out, I considered running that game too. I just have no time for that. I have no time to create and play such complicated games. And I think this is true for many people. I know plenty of people who have many 3E and Pathfinder books who never play those games. They may love the idea of running epics games in a complicated and dense ruleset, but when it comes down to it, they can't shoulder the burden of playing those types of games.

C&C, OD&D, and other light types of games are easier to GM from a rules standpoint. That is why I think that many of the people I play with gravitate to these types of game.

"Ain't nobody got time for that!"

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BudaZoa
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by BudaZoa »

Buttmonkey wrote:That is a great thing to hear. I suspect being in a larger metro area like Dallas helps significantly with locating players, though.

You would think that ! I played 1ed for my first year of solid gaming when I moved to Texas and it took me eight months to find that group of four to start it. This was the first time in many years of playing it, my friends and I have been strictly running CnC and dragon quest for many years prior. I love 1ed but even that is too rule intensive for me these days.

Almost everyone here runs 3.5 or pathfinder, it is hard to find someone running other systems. Even on the meet ups.


I am from New York City, while it might be metro compared to west bubble fuck America ,this is hardly a large metro area and finding people who don't run cookie cutter games is difficult. The few old school type games I played in before findin a good group , really sucked. One group played nothing but modules, you couldn't roll up ya own characters in and there wasn't much room for character growth and the others were all text book lawyer type games. Even the GMs saw books as the bible and completely ignored Gygax's gold rule: " Use these books as guidelines and have fun"



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MrGrim
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by MrGrim »

BudaZoa wrote:...The few old school type games I played in before findin a good group , really sucked. One group played nothing but modules, you couldn't roll up ya own characters in and there wasn't much room for character growth and the others were all text book lawyer type games. Even the GMs saw books as the bible and completely ignored Gygax's gold rule: " Use these books as guidelines and have fun"
The downside of old school is it dumps all of the weight of "fun" first on the shoulders of the GM, and then onto the players. If the GM and the table dynamic are not good, there is no nice tactical game to fall back upon. If the GM does not do a good job in "pressing the narrative" and the players are uncreative types, old school can be atrociously blah. On the other hand, with talented GMs and creative players, old school is unparalleled.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by old school gamer »

[*]
tylermo wrote:Well, I've had a few failed attempts, but many successes with C&C. I guess some of those I failed with may have been married to feats, quicker xp/leveling, powerful starting characters (d6 wizards w/more spells) vs. d4 wizards w/less spells, etc.), unusual prestige-type classes, among others. That said, I've had many successes. Some who enjoy both C&C and PF, and some who like the simplicity of C&C. A young woman (one of the many early 20's gamers who are just young enough to be my kids lol) has been roleplaying in a few different groups, including an all-women group. She has to run PF pretty soon, but I'm not sure if she has gm'ed before. She likes C&C, and being in between printings aside, she needs a phb and m&t. She likes it a great deal, and I think she'll have an easier time with it. Anyway, just some of my observations about these matters. Was the same way with 3.5, etc. Getting people sold on Savage Worlds was difficult as well, but it paid off eventually.
You can get a printing of both books for C&C for a fraction of cost of the Pathfinder core book.

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Arduin
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Arduin »

MrGrim wrote: The downside of old school is it dumps all of the weight of "fun" first on the shoulders of the GM, and then onto the players. If the GM and the table dynamic are not good, there is no nice tactical game to fall back upon. If the GM does not do a good job in "pressing the narrative" and the players are uncreative types, old school can be atrociously blah. On the other hand, with talented GMs and creative players, old school is unparalleled.
Been playing forever and I never found that. 1st Ed D&D combat was fine. Much better than the 3.x mess that could take forever compared to earlier editions.
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Treebore
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:
MrGrim wrote: The downside of old school is it dumps all of the weight of "fun" first on the shoulders of the GM, and then onto the players. If the GM and the table dynamic are not good, there is no nice tactical game to fall back upon. If the GM does not do a good job in "pressing the narrative" and the players are uncreative types, old school can be atrociously blah. On the other hand, with talented GMs and creative players, old school is unparalleled.
Been playing forever and I never found that. 1st Ed D&D combat was fine. Much better than the 3.x mess that could take forever compared to earlier editions.
Actually it took a long time to figure out how it all worked by the book. Initiative alone was a big pain in the butt. Then when you figured out who went first based upon weapons being used, ranged, pole arm, then melee, then used weapon speeds, weapon versus armor, etc... it was a bit of a head ache to get it all worked out. Then there was Grappling. Still, once you did finally understand it, and got it all written out on the character sheets on the provided tables, it went smooth enough.

But in the end I do prefer a game where as long as I know everything that needs to be known, my players can learn it as we go, so we can get to having fun as long as I am ready. When its a "shared" burden, and every player needs to be up on the rules, well, at least one player tends to be "too busy" or simply too lazy, to be ready on time. Which has its own set of headaches. I know I can rely on me, so prefer it when only I need to know the rules. I love being able to tell my players, "Roll a D20, or 2D6, and I'll tell you the outcome." They'll learn what they need to know soon enough. Except those players who seem to take forever to learn that you roll a D20 and add your specific attribute modifier, plus BtH. Or to roll 2d6, add skill ranks + attribute modifiers (Traveler). For some reason it seems to take a really long time to "sink in" for some people.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Arduin
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote: Actually it took a long time to figure out how it all worked by the book. Initiative alone was a big pain in the butt. Then when you figured out who went first based upon weapons being used, ranged, pole arm, then melee, then used weapon speeds, weapon versus armor, etc... it was a bit of a head ache to get it all worked out. Then there was Grappling. Still, once you did finally understand it, and got it all written out on the character sheets on the provided tables, it went smooth enough.
It took MUCH less time than in trying to figure out 3.X and all the feat trees, precedence etc. Combat was also much faster than 3.X and less complex.

So, it's comparative. 2E was easier still. 4.x wasn't D&D so can't really compare.
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Treebore
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:
Treebore wrote: Actually it took a long time to figure out how it all worked by the book. Initiative alone was a big pain in the butt. Then when you figured out who went first based upon weapons being used, ranged, pole arm, then melee, then used weapon speeds, weapon versus armor, etc... it was a bit of a head ache to get it all worked out. Then there was Grappling. Still, once you did finally understand it, and got it all written out on the character sheets on the provided tables, it went smooth enough.
It took MUCH less time than in trying to figure out 3.X and all the feat trees, precedence etc. Combat was also much faster than 3.X and less complex.

So, it's comparative. 2E was easier still. 4.x wasn't D&D so can't really compare.
I don't agree, 3E was pretty easy as far as combat goes. A very easy formula to remember. AoO was a major pain, but that was because it was very poorly explained in 3.0, so unless you got that errata, or finally got 3.5E once it was out, yeah, I saw a number of rather ugly arguments at our LGS over how AoO was supposed to work. Now skills, I hated skills, a lot of work for very little return. C&C handles skills light years better. Feats were relatively simple, but some felt very "broken", even in just the core PHB. Then again, by the time 3E came out I had played games like Rolemaster, MERP, Aftermath, Paladium Fantasy, RIFTS, Shadowrun, etc... so in comparison, combined with my experience just figuring out games, 3E felt pretty easy. Plus it helped I read the Dragon preview explanations. 1E AD&D was my very first RPG to figure out, and considering we all were "Navy Nukes" and used to figuring out complex instructions and math problems, I do recall it being more of a challenge to get everything figured out, and I recall it took some Dragon mag articles to help us get everything right. Even then we still learned correct interpretations years down the road in Dragons "Sage Advice" column. Of course my Navy group was the only group I ever played in that ran "by the book", every other game I played in had its own host of house rules, almost always for initiative, always totally ignored weapon speed factors as well as weapon versus armor, and the formula's behind the "To Hit" tables had been figured out, as well as for saves, etc... so those versions of the game were definitely simpler to "learn".
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Buttmonkey »

Treebore wrote:I know I can rely on me, so prefer it when only I need to know the rules. I love being able to tell my players, "Roll a D20, or 2D6, and I'll tell you the outcome." They'll learn what they need to know soon enough. Except those players who seem to take forever to learn that you roll a D20 and add your specific attribute modifier, plus BtH. Or to roll 2d6, add skill ranks + attribute modifiers (Traveler). For some reason it seems to take a really long time to "sink in" for some people.
Good Lord, tell me about it. I swear this happens every single session in my current campaign that has been going for about a year:

Me: (At the start of every session, I explain what a SIEGE check is, what to roll, what to add as modifiers, etc.)

45 minutes into the game...
Me: Okay, Player 1. I need you to make a dex check and add level.
Player 1: (clueless look on his face despite this being his 10th session) Uh.....
Me: You are going to make a dexterity check, add your level, add your attribute bonus, and tell me if dexterity is prime.
Player 1: Uh......
Me: Just roll a d20.
Player 1: (Picks up a d8 with a confused look on his face)
Me: (dies a little inside)

And so it goes...

The same thing happens in combat:

Me: Okay, make a to-hit roll to see if you hit the goblin.
Player 1: (picks up a d8)
Me: No, you need to roll a 20 sided die.
Player 2: (picks up a d20 and hands it to Player 1)
Player 1: (rolls and doesn't say anything)
Me: What did you get?
Player 1: A 13?
Me: (Seeing the d20 came up 13) Did you add your attribute bonus?
Player 1: Oh, yeah! 30!
Me: What?!
Player 1: My strength is 17!
Me: No, no, your attribute bonus. It's that plus thing next to your strength score.
Player 1: Oh. I guess I got a 15 then.
Me: Did you add your bonus to hit?
Player 1: My what?
Me: Your character is a fighter. At first level, he gets a +1 on all attack rolls.
Player 1: But I thought you said I get +2 for my strength?

I swear to God that happens every single session.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote: I don't agree, 3E was pretty easy as far as combat goes. A very easy formula to remember. AoO was a major pain, but that was because it was very poorly explained in 3.0, so unless you got that errata, or finally got 3.5E once it was out, yeah, I saw a number of rather ugly arguments at our LGS over how AoO was supposed to work. Now skills, I hated skills, a lot of work for very little return.
I'm mainly gauging it upon how long combats took to play. 1st Ed was much faster for us than 3.x combat.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by finarvyn »

At my table, he who runs the game picks the rules. As others have noted, there are lots of players and not so many game masters. You are a valuable resource and your players need to understand that it's not worth it for you to run a game you don't like. I always take suggestions from my players, but I get to make the final decision.
jdizzy001 wrote:I don't have access to my books right now thus everything is srd. Hence pathfinder.
A couple of options come to mind.

(1) Buy another copy of the C&C PH and or a PDF copy. Not too expensive that that would get the rules in front of you.

(2) Use the Pathfinder SRD as your core but cut stuff you don't need out to make it feel more "old school". Don't do skills. Don't do feats. Use the base class stuff and spells and add in the SIEGE engine to get a C&C style game. While it's not "true" C&C that way, it should be close enough so that you won't have fits with the Pathfinder details.

I guess I should mention that I have a natural bias against Pathfinder. At my local game store, the PF players were too loud, never bought product, and were told to leave the store. The guy who ran the game actually told his players not to buy rulebooks in the store but instead to buy them online or download the SRD for free. Plus they tried to recruit players (my sister) from other games scheduled at the same timeslot in the store. They reminded me too much of the Borg and I don't like people who act like that.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by jdizzy001 »

I never said I don't like PF, but I do prefer SEIGE. However, once i get paid, I'm going to jump in on the kickstarter and obtain my second copy of the phb that way. Not having multiple copies of the phb has hindered me more than once.
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