Well, it happened again, gents

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
jdizzy001
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Well, it happened again, gents

Post by jdizzy001 »

I am running a pathfinder game (at the request of my current group) and as cited in some of my much earlier posts, I missed the SIEGE engine. So many d20 OGL game elements are fixed/simplified by use of the siege. So many times I said to myself during the session, "my word, this would be easier if I could just assign a CL and tell the player to roll." Instead we were consulting manuals and discussing the interpretation of rules. Long live the crusade. That's all I have to say.

And, to any fence sitters trolling the site, contemplating the purchase of cnc, I say, take the plunge. CnC is such a well balanced, easy to play, fun to play rpg, you won't be disappointed.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by pawndream »

Why don't your players want to play Castles and Crusades? is it that they are enamored with the mechanical shiny of Pathfinder and do not want to give that up for a simpler game system?

If it makes you feel any better, I recently had the same thing happen while running a 2nd edition AD&D one shot game on Roll20. I kept thinking how much better the game would be if we had a unified mechanic, ascending AC, and used SIEGE instead of NWPs.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Treebore »

Yep. I've told my current groups I'd run 3E or even Pathfinder for them, but PH materials only. Fortunately no one I currently game with wanted me to do it, except one. So one out of 13 or so players being unhappy/displeased is a pretty good ratio.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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jdizzy001
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by jdizzy001 »

We also limited ourself to the pathfinder ph. But yes, it was the mechanical shiny of pathfinder that hooked them.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by MrGrim »

Have you tried introducing them to old school play with narrative combat (no map, no minis)? I've DMd a few groups on the Internet with this style of play over the last few weeks. Only a couple of the players had ever experienced the game like this (the way we used to play it). Most newer gamers can't even conceive of the idea of narrative combat. However, I'm finding people warm up very quickly to it in my games.

Getting rid of the minis opens the game up to the imagination, makes it move faster, allows players to experience more in each gaming session, and gets the rules and the need of lots of rules off center stage so you can focus on the story.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Lord Dynel »

I hear ya, jdizz. My group in the past have really leaned towards d20-ish, crunchy, systems. Usually a derivative of 3.x. It's been an uphill battle getting them to try something else. They're beginning to come around more readily, but that might be because I've really adopted the mentality of "this is what I'm running...if you don't want to play, well, you'll be missed!" Well, it's really more, "hey guys, we've run 3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder, and SWSE now for more than a decade...I'd like to try something different. If you don't want to, I understand, but this is what I'm going to run..." Kind of like, hey, you've had your turn, let me have mine. Hopefully, they understand and are willing to try something different. But it's a hard, uphill, battle, I understand.

I think it's all the stuff they can "do." We all know the arguments and points about not being limited by skills and feats but to people who've come from certain places (like video games / MMOs, for instance, or even games TTRPGs that have always been that way) gravitate towards that style of play. They "need" the ability on their sheet or they can't do it. Hard rules that allow them to do this or that. Otherwise, it's utter chaos and they feel lost. Some people in my group are that way. One guy, in particular, has even told me (directly) that he likes these style of game because it empowers him as a player and not everything's up to GM fiat. I didn't have the heart to tell him that if I didn't want him to climb that DC 10 wall he's not going to, no matter what he rolls. ;) But, I digress...

My opinion? Just be upfront. Tell them that while you understand that they love them some PF, you'd want to go back to C&C. If these are people that have played C&C before and just prefer PF over it, then you might be fighting a losing battle. Making the switch might lose them. But if they haven't, or are otherwise willing, tell them to give C&C 4-6 sessions. If they don't like the pace, actions, and options C&C affords, then you'll have to make the choice to go back to PF and keep playing TTRPGs or find new players. Hopefully, not the latter. As awesome as C&C is, some people just need the four walls of hard rules around them.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

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Lord Dynel wrote: My opinion? Just be upfront. Tell them that while you understand that they love them some PF, you'd want to go back to C&C. If these are people that have played C&C before and just prefer PF over it, then you might be fighting a losing battle. Making the switch might lose them. But if they haven't, or are otherwise willing, tell them to give C&C 4-6 sessions. If they don't like the pace, actions, and options C&C affords, then you'll have to make the choice to go back to PF and keep playing TTRPGs or find new players. Hopefully, not the latter. As awesome as C&C is, some people just need the four walls of hard rules around them.
Well put (your whole post). You may well lose some players when switching to any different system. Fortunately it is a GM's market almost everywhere. No matter where I have lived over the last 4 decades (2 continents & many different States) that has been the case. With very little promotion I've always found far more than enough players to run RPG's for.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Lord Dynel »

Arduin wrote:
Lord Dynel wrote: My opinion? Just be upfront. Tell them that while you understand that they love them some PF, you'd want to go back to C&C. If these are people that have played C&C before and just prefer PF over it, then you might be fighting a losing battle. Making the switch might lose them. But if they haven't, or are otherwise willing, tell them to give C&C 4-6 sessions. If they don't like the pace, actions, and options C&C affords, then you'll have to make the choice to go back to PF and keep playing TTRPGs or find new players. Hopefully, not the latter. As awesome as C&C is, some people just need the four walls of hard rules around them.
Well put (your whole post). You may well lose some players when switching to any different system. Fortunately it is a GM's market almost everywhere. No matter where I have lived over the last 4 decades (2 continents & many different States) that has been the case. With very little promotion I've always found far more than enough players to run RPG's for.
Exactly (and thank you!). I've even had some resolute players who were adamant against anything other than their particular system of choice leave only to come back (often like nothing ever happened) to my table after a few sessions. Maybe they realized they were being an a$$, or maybe they realized that being in a game that they didn't particularly like was better than better than not being in a game at all...I don't know. In the end I realized - and I've always known it, but for one reason or another I never accepted it or acknowledged it - that if the GM isn't happy running the game, then the game isn't going to go very well (or as well as it could/should) An unhappy player? Sure, that's a cause for concern. I'm not discounting unhappy players. But if the GM isn't having a good time, then that could be potentially disastrous. I was there. I was tired of the constant page-flipping, rules arguing/lawyering, and overall sluggishness of the game pace that's been going on at my table for way too long. I gave up the screen to take a break for a while (and am currently playing in a SWSE and a PF game, ironically enough ;)) but when I come back it'll be definitely be something more lighter.

I'm not swearing off crunchier systems altogether. I'll play in one, no problem. Heck, I ran GURPS for a few months at the end of '13 (I wanted to try something different and introduce others to the system). But my longer, more permanent games are going to be with a system that isn't going to devour most of the sessions sifting through books looking for the right rule for the situation or for that particular feat or spell out of hundreds. That isn't my idea of fun.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by tylermo »

Well, I've had a few failed attempts, but many successes with C&C. I guess some of those I failed with may have been married to feats, quicker xp/leveling, powerful starting characters (d6 wizards w/more spells) vs. d4 wizards w/less spells, etc.), unusual prestige-type classes, among others. That said, I've had many successes. Some who enjoy both C&C and PF, and some who like the simplicity of C&C. A young woman (one of the many early 20's gamers who are just young enough to be my kids lol) has been roleplaying in a few different groups, including an all-women group. She has to run PF pretty soon, but I'm not sure if she has gm'ed before. She likes C&C, and being in between printings aside, she needs a phb and m&t. She likes it a great deal, and I think she'll have an easier time with it. Anyway, just some of my observations about these matters. Was the same way with 3.5, etc. Getting people sold on Savage Worlds was difficult as well, but it paid off eventually.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Shadowslayer »

Gamers are a different breed of cat, that's for sure. I put out a call not long ago to find a game group. Had a 4e guy and a couple 3.5'ers and I told them that I was in no matter what the system. (I'm not proud....I've had fun w every version of DnD and am happy to play whatever.) But...if I was DMing, it was CnC and I even offered to provide all materials. Never heard back from anyone.

What has it come to when guys are so married to a system that they'd rather not play than play something different? Being that particular is kinda messed up IMO. Especially if you're in a situation, or area, where other gamers aren't dropping out of the trees around you.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Fiffergrund »

I tend to be in the "life is short, don't play a game that you think sucks" camp.

I won't play any Hasbro version or Pathfinder, for the same reasons that I migrated to C&C in the first place.

I spent years having my enjoyment for tabletop fantasy gaming eviscerated by rules bloat. It took me years to unlearn the impulse that everything in the game needs a mechanic and a die roll.

I have no wish to fall back into that paradigm, so I leave those systems to those who will enjoy it. If I know I won't, there's no point in participating and making it sour for them.

Same goes for any C&C game I run. If you are open-minded about it, great. If not, I'd rather you not be there, and that you find a game more suitable to you instead. It's not personal, but free time is too short to do something you don't enjoy.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Treebore »

Its not just gamers. Anyone who invests time, effort, and money into anything will be very hesitant to abandon it. No matter what it is. Especially if they like it. So if your asking someone to stop playing something they have put time, effort, and money into, and especially if they also LIKE it, of course they are going to be very resistant to abandoning it. Heck, a large part of why I stuck with 3E as long as I did was because of the years I had already spent playing and running it, and the HUNDREDS of 3E books and adventure modules I had bought. I only switched because I got so disgusted with it I was seriously considering giving up gaming, period, and I heard of a "Rosetta Stone" game, that if true, would not only keep all thsoe hundred of 3E books I had bought relevant, but make all the 2E, 1E and older D&D books relevant again as well.

So this isn't rocket science folks, its pretty obvious as to why gamers would be resistant to change, especially if they like what your asking them to give up.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

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I run my C&C game because no one in my area to my knowledge runs anything I would enjoy playing. I have no doubt I could find a Pathfinder game easily if I wanted to play it, but I don't. It's just not my cup of tea. I don't think that makes me messed up, but what do I know? This may be a GM's market, but it isn't a market for GMs running the games I am interested in. Recruiting players for C&C has been difficult. People around here seem to play Pathfinder or Magic: The Gathering and that's it. I'll keep trying, though.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Fiffergrund »

I always thought that the most effective way to get a Hasbro or Pathfinder player to switch to C&C is make him/her the DM.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Arduin »

Fiffergrund wrote:I always thought that the most effective way to get a Hasbro or Pathfinder player to switch to C&C is make him/her the DM.
:lol:

Actually, that is the most effective way to make one of those players commit seppuku.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Rigon »

I think it also has to do with people wanting to play what they know. My old group clings to 3/3.5 mainly because they "don't want to have to learn another system." Around aught-4/aught-5, I got tired of all to splat and rules bloat of 3/3.5 and was heading back to a heavily modified 2e (based on a Dragon article that incorporated 3e-isms into 2e). That's how I stumbled onto C&C in the first place. It was just about the perfect game for me and I switched.

So I will only run games using C&C, but I'll try any game at least once.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Fiffergrund »

Everyone wants to play, but very few want to DM. Many possible reasons for that, but when you can't get even one experienced person out of a group to agree to do it with what is supposed to be the preferred system, there's Trouble in River City.

It is amazing how that sorts itself out.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Aramis »

jdizzy001 wrote:I am running a pathfinder game (at the request of my current group) and as cited in some of my much earlier posts, I missed the SIEGE engine. So many d20 OGL game elements are fixed/simplified by use of the siege. So many times I said to myself during the session, "my word, this would be easier if I could just assign a CL and tell the player to roll." Instead we were consulting manuals and discussing the interpretation of rules. Long live the crusade. That's all I have to say.

And, to any fence sitters trolling the site, contemplating the purchase of cnc, I say, take the plunge. CnC is such a well balanced, easy to play, fun to play rpg, you won't be disappointed.
For next session spend the pre game talking about how you had to do a bunch of research about such and such a feat and how it relates to the supernatural vs extraordinary abilities divide. Then, make a big show of placing your stack of books beside a big elaborate DMs screen with all the modifiers and other detritus shown on the side facing the players. On your side of the screen is affixed a single piece of paper that says simply:

SIEGE= 1d20+Attribute+Misc+(maybe Level)+(6 if Prime) vs 18+HD+Misc

Then you just let the players "Pathfind" to their hearts' content. Every so often when they ask a question about some feat cancelling some effect, say "good point", nod thoughtfully, and flip through one of the books stacked beside you (make sure the book you are pretending to consult is held right-side-up. I cannot emphasise that enough).

On occasion when they expect something to work (according to Pathfinder) that doesn't (because of a SIEGE check), you say something like "yeah, you normally would have expected that to work" and then smile mysteriously. This will probably lead to quite a flurry of player book consulting and google searching. Perhaps even a tearful cri de coeur tweet the next day.

Enjoy your new simple fun game, crusader!


:lol:

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

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I like the way you think!
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Treebore »

I'm lucky, my face to face group is all 18 to 22 years of age, mostly my kids, but the rest are their friends, and while I own the PF books, and tons of 3E books, they want nothing to do with it. They simply do not want to learn all the ins and outs of all those feats, skills, skill synergies, spells, etc... when C&C is so much easier to understand, and so much easier to do essentially the same thing, especially since I allow SIEGE checks to do "Feat-like" things.

Not that they won't play complex rules systems, we've also played Cthulhu Tech, Legend of the 5 Rings, Dresden Files, etc... but the only other D&D type game they are willing to run or play, aside from C&C, is Swords and Wizardry.

My older son runs a C&C game on Thursdays for all his College buddies. They too have been given Pathfinder a try, as well as one other system, but my son and one of his friends were telling me yesterday, during our Aces and Eights game, how they are giving up on those games and going back to C&C. Why? Simply because the complexity isn't worth the effort. The whole group of 7. Even the guy that pushed for Pathfinder in the first place agrees that the complexity of PF isn't worth it, and that C&C does it better, and much more simply. So yeah, very fortunate with the groups around here, all two of them.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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jdizzy001
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by jdizzy001 »

All great points. Sadly, not applicable to my case. I don't have access to my books right now thus everything is srd. Hence pathfinder. The group on the other hand is a group of noobs. Had i access to my books, I would have extended cnc to them. But alas, tis not the case this time. Still, Having started with 3.5, moved to 4e, slid to cnc, switched back to 4e then back to cnc, followed by pathfinder. I am so ready to hang up this 3.x gig and commit to cnc.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Arduin »

Hilarious Aramis! That would probably work too
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

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Snoring Rock wrote:Lately I have found myself aggravated by the poor quality of editing and the d20-isms left in the M&T, that should have been removed prior to first print. I have gotten tired of house ruling on the fly. And for the love of mankind, please don't go jump in and tell me I am running my game wrong. The fact is, poor editing makes for poor overall product ...
If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone. I haven't bought a TLG product in two years, and I was very disappointed with the last ones before that (esp. PHB 5th and Classic Monsters), largely for editing reasons. I'm sticking with my current C&C books on the grounds that what I'm really doing is playing AD&D with some C&C alternate rules, but I don't see spending any more of my hard-earned money on TLG products until they improve their editing. I know this doesn't matter to plenty of other folks, and therefore perhaps not to TLG, but it matters to me, and as a consumer, I "vote" with my dollars, and at the moment, TLG isn't getting my vote ...

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Treebore »

kreider204 wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:Lately I have found myself aggravated by the poor quality of editing and the d20-isms left in the M&T, that should have been removed prior to first print. I have gotten tired of house ruling on the fly. And for the love of mankind, please don't go jump in and tell me I am running my game wrong. The fact is, poor editing makes for poor overall product ...
If it makes you feel any better, you're not alone. I haven't bought a TLG product in two years, and I was very disappointed with the last ones before that (esp. PHB 5th and Classic Monsters), largely for editing reasons. I'm sticking with my current C&C books on the grounds that what I'm really doing is playing AD&D with some C&C alternate rules, but I don't see spending any more of my hard-earned money on TLG products until they improve their editing. I know this doesn't matter to plenty of other folks, and therefore perhaps not to TLG, but it matters to me, and as a consumer, I "vote" with my dollars, and at the moment, TLG isn't getting my vote ...

Well, then you will want to support the new KS at least at the $45 level, because the PH and M&T are getting a serious editing over haul. Not sure about the CKG, but I would hope they are doing the same with it. I really don't give a crap about the full color, and in fact would prefer to not have it, but if you prefer full color, there is that too.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

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Treebore wrote: Well, then you will want to support the new KS at least at the $45 level, because the PH and M&T are getting a serious editing over haul.
Yeah, but I feel like I've heard that before, and I'm at a "fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" point. I'll believe it when I see it, and I'll consider spending my money then.
Treebore wrote: I really don't give a crap about the full color, and in fact would prefer to not have it ...
Ditto, and another reason why I ended up selling my 5th printing PHB and going back to my 4th - I just found the 5th too difficult to read.

Again, we'll see, but in the meantime, I'm happy with my AD&D reprints and my 4th C&C PHB.

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by Buttmonkey »

I hear you on the color version. I prefer my 4th printing, but my dad swiped it from me because he has bad eyesight and the 5th printing is impossible for him. I am told the contrast in the 6th printing will be greatly improved. Nothing wrong with you waiting to see how it actually looks before dropping your hard earned gold pieces.
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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

Post by kreider204 »

To be clear, I am a big fan of the game itself. I love the SIEGE engine, the C&C take on races and classes, the lack of built-in limits on race/class combinations and level caps - heck, I even like illusionists with healing spells. :) I'm just increasingly turned off my the lack of professional "polish" in the products for which I have so very little disposable income ...

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Re: Well, it happened again, gents

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Buttmonkey wrote:I hear you on the color version. I prefer my 4th printing, but my dad swiped it from me because he has bad eyesight and the 5th printing is impossible for him. I am told the contrast in the 6th printing will be greatly improved. Nothing wrong with you waiting to see how it actually looks before dropping your hard earned gold pieces.
They are going to handle the contrast issue on the new color versions. That was mentioned about a week ago.
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