C&C Newb

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
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Zardnaar
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C&C Newb

Post by Zardnaar »

Hi everyone just digesting my PDF read out as I wait for my amazon goodies to arrive- the 3 core books+ monsters and treasure+ the deities and monsters books. Long time D&D player but never DMed 1st ed or run C&C before. Returning to OSR games after a long stint playing 3rd ed and DCC/C&C seem to have the mos support with new adventures etc. Some dumb questions.

1. No level limits anymore, human seems to suck?
2. I have a Myth and Magic/2nd ed fighter with the 2nd ed cavalier kit. C&C seems easy to convert some 2nd ed material to?
3. A lot of 3rd ed elements involved in C&C but mostly the good parts. Things like assassins, illusionists and Druids seem to use modern spell patterns.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Treebore »

No level limits, and humans get 3 Primes, while everyone else gets 2, so they don't suck.

I find it very easy to convert 2E and prior materials to C&C, and converting 3E and 4E isn't all that difficult either.

Yep, 9 levels of spells in C&C, but assassins don't get any, by the book.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Treebore »

Oh, and welcome to the community!
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Relaxo
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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Relaxo »

Welcome aboard!

One thing I found at first with C&C as compared to 3.x or PF is that there doesn't seem to be enough rules. but this is it's greatest strength! just Siege check things and play on! usually the answer is YES not 'you don't have that skill/feat/whathavyou. its faster and miore fun IMO
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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Rigon »

Zardnaar wrote:Hi everyone just digesting my PDF read out as I wait for my amazon goodies to arrive- the 3 core books+ monsters and treasure+ the deities and monsters books. Long time D&D player but never DMed 1st ed or run C&C before. Returning to OSR games after a long stint playing 3rd ed and DCC/C&C seem to have the mos support with new adventures etc. Some dumb questions.

1. No level limits anymore, human seems to suck?
2. I have a Myth and Magic/2nd ed fighter with the 2nd ed cavalier kit. C&C seems easy to convert some 2nd ed material to?
3. A lot of 3rd ed elements involved in C&C but mostly the good parts. Things like assassins, illusionists and Druids seem to use modern spell patterns.
1. As Tree said, the human's third prime kicks arse. Definitely do not suck.
2. Any 1st or 2nd ed material converts with minimal effort, so all of your earlier edition/OSR materials work great with C&C.
3. Definitely did away with the things in 3e that sucked.

Welcome to the boards.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by jdizzy001 »

The extra goodies awarded to the other races are helpful and usable, but they pale in comparison to the human's extra prime. Strictly metagaming, an extra prime is going to move an additional 16% of your rolls into the "I can do this!" Category for a total of 50%. All other characters sit in the 34% range with only 2 primes. Mathmatically speaking humans are the best race. Of course this analysis does not take into consideration campaign or pc ideas.

I hope you enjoy cnc! I started playing almost two years ago and it has quickly become my favorite fantasy rpg. The streamlined approach to d20 OGL combined with the seige engine makes for a game that is versatile, quick and very fun to play!
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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Buttmonkey »

Welcome aboard!

FWIW, there are only two core rulebooks for C&C: the Players Handbook and Monsters & Treasure. They contain everything you need. The Castle Keeper's Guide contains a crap-ton of optional rules as well as expanding PC abilities to high levels (beyond what's covered in the PHB). The CKG is not core. I've been playing C&C off and on for 7 years and I've never used it. (That doesn't mean it is a bad book, just that I have been too lazy to read it.)
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Zardnaar »

3 Core books usually means PHB, MM, DMG to me or the equivalents as I bought these on PDF. I know some games only have 1-2 core books like Pathfinder, ACKS, Rules Cyclopedia etc. I'm thinking about using some of the 2nd ed magic item/spell compendium books and maybe some kits.


Int thing that is flashing lights though is spell DCs so the base number is 18 in a bad save and you dd the level of the spell to that so a level 4 spell would be 22 and you roll a d20 and add your level, ability and any other modifiers? Seems toough to beat and worse than 3rd ed spell DCs in some ways. I have been liking BECMI/AD&D type saves recently or Myth and Magics Buffed fort/ref/will system. Having a 6 point difference between a good and bad save is kind of like 3rd ed again to me and that was one of the biggest turn offs in that system for me. Magic items being semi abundent in the C&C adventures I have bought so far but that was a main observation I noticed.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Rigon »

Zardnaar wrote:3 Core books usually means PHB, MM, DMG to me or the equivalents as I bought these on PDF. I know some games only have 1-2 core books like Pathfinder, ACKS, Rules Cyclopedia etc. I'm thinking about using some of the 2nd ed magic item/spell compendium books and maybe some kits.


Int thing that is flashing lights though is spell DCs so the base number is 18 in a bad save and you dd the level of the spell to that so a level 4 spell would be 22 and you roll a d20 and add your level, ability and any other modifiers? Seems toough to beat and worse than 3rd ed spell DCs in some ways. I have been liking BECMI/AD&D type saves recently or Myth and Magics Buffed fort/ref/will system. Having a 6 point difference between a good and bad save is kind of like 3rd ed again to me and that was one of the biggest turn offs in that system for me. Magic items being semi abundent in the C&C adventures I have bought so far but that was a main observation I noticed.
Actually, a spell's challenge level is equal to the caster, not the spell level. So a 1st level caster's spells would have a CL of 1 and a 5th level caster's would be 5 regardless of the level spell he is casting. That might seem a lot, but when you factor in level of the recipient (ie, a 5th level character adds 5 to his saving throws), it evens out in the end. However, the beauty of the SEIGE Engine allows you to change the challenge base (12/18) to something else if you want without breaking the game. I know people who use 10/15 for primes and others who use 8/14. The game plays the same. Personally, I love the fact that saves aren't a gimme at higher levels. It brings a bit of drama to those high level combats that I never experienced in any other form of D&D.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Treebore »

Yep in C&C characters are not going to be Superman, they are going to have 3 or 4 weak areas, that will always be a threat to their success. Plus you add the CASTERS level, not the Spells. So that 4th level spell is actually cast by a 7th or 8th level caster, so the CL will be a 7 or 8, or higher, if the Caster is higher.

A lot of people dislike the characters actually being in such danger, but I love it. Plus you can minimize such threats by being aware of who has which Primes, using lower level casters against the players, give them time to cast spells such as Protection From Evil, etc... to boost their saves. Your not going to see characters pretty much auto saving versus spells and similar effects in C&C.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Rigon »

Ha, I beat you to it. :P

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Treebore »

As Rigon mentions above, people have come up with plenty of house rules if you find by the book overly challenging. Yet in the 8+ years I have been running C&C pretty much weekly, including campaigns that went up to 14th and 17th levels, I much prefer doing it by the book. If you typically only run games to 8th or 10th level changing to a 10/15 base would probably be a good idea, because the 12/18 doesn't really pay off until the game goes above that level. Meaning, the 12/18 split keeps the game challenging even at higher levels, instead of running into the auto save problem the other editions have.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Treebore »

The Trolls host a really nice compilation PDF of many of the classes, etc... that we the fans have created. So is nice if you ever want additional options already largely done for you, its the Crusader Companion under fan resources:

http://www.trolllord.com/downloads/index.html
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by jdizzy001 »

Another good medium for the 12/18 split (which can be found in the ckg) is to split it from prime and secondary into prime, secondary and tertiary (12/15/18). I really like this method as it gives the characters a third dimension of depth. Instead of having 2 good and 4 bad you get 2 good (three for hoomans), 2 mediocre, and 2 poor (1 for hoomans).
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Zardnaar
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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Zardnaar »

Rigon wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:3 Core books usually means PHB, MM, DMG to me or the equivalents as I bought these on PDF. I know some games only have 1-2 core books like Pathfinder, ACKS, Rules Cyclopedia etc. I'm thinking about using some of the 2nd ed magic item/spell compendium books and maybe some kits.


Int thing that is flashing lights though is spell DCs so the base number is 18 in a bad save and you dd the level of the spell to that so a level 4 spell would be 22 and you roll a d20 and add your level, ability and any other modifiers? Seems toough to beat and worse than 3rd ed spell DCs in some ways. I have been liking BECMI/AD&D type saves recently or Myth and Magics Buffed fort/ref/will system. Having a 6 point difference between a good and bad save is kind of like 3rd ed again to me and that was one of the biggest turn offs in that system for me. Magic items being semi abundent in the C&C adventures I have bought so far but that was a main observation I noticed.
Actually, a spell's challenge level is equal to the caster, not the spell level. So a 1st level caster's spells would have a CL of 1 and a 5th level caster's would be 5 regardless of the level spell he is casting. That might seem a lot, but when you factor in level of the recipient (ie, a 5th level character adds 5 to his saving throws), it evens out in the end. However, the beauty of the SEIGE Engine allows you to change the challenge base (12/18) to something else if you want without breaking the game. I know people who use 10/15 for primes and others who use 8/14. The game plays the same. Personally, I love the fact that saves aren't a gimme at higher levels. It brings a bit of drama to those high level combats that I never experienced in any other form of D&D.

R-
Lol thats even worse. I like most of C&C but might just plug in AD&D saves.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Treebore »

Zardnaar wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:3 Core books usually means PHB, MM, DMG to me or the equivalents as I bought these on PDF. I know some games only have 1-2 core books like Pathfinder, ACKS, Rules Cyclopedia etc. I'm thinking about using some of the 2nd ed magic item/spell compendium books and maybe some kits.


Int thing that is flashing lights though is spell DCs so the base number is 18 in a bad save and you dd the level of the spell to that so a level 4 spell would be 22 and you roll a d20 and add your level, ability and any other modifiers? Seems toough to beat and worse than 3rd ed spell DCs in some ways. I have been liking BECMI/AD&D type saves recently or Myth and Magics Buffed fort/ref/will system. Having a 6 point difference between a good and bad save is kind of like 3rd ed again to me and that was one of the biggest turn offs in that system for me. Magic items being semi abundent in the C&C adventures I have bought so far but that was a main observation I noticed.
Actually, a spell's challenge level is equal to the caster, not the spell level. So a 1st level caster's spells would have a CL of 1 and a 5th level caster's would be 5 regardless of the level spell he is casting. That might seem a lot, but when you factor in level of the recipient (ie, a 5th level character adds 5 to his saving throws), it evens out in the end. However, the beauty of the SEIGE Engine allows you to change the challenge base (12/18) to something else if you want without breaking the game. I know people who use 10/15 for primes and others who use 8/14. The game plays the same. Personally, I love the fact that saves aren't a gimme at higher levels. It brings a bit of drama to those high level combats that I never experienced in any other form of D&D.

R-
Lol thats even worse. I like most of C&C but might just plug in AD&D saves.

For me C&C is all about doing it the way you want it. I personally can't stand D&D saves, especially at higher levels, but if thats what you want, its certainly a good way to go.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by kreider204 »

Ya, there's definitely split opinions around here about saves. I prefer the C&C way, but I can understand those who prefer the D&D way. If you want something D&Dish but without all the charts, then instead of using the caster level, just set a universal challenge level to get the difficulty you want at various levels. For example, you might set the CL at 5 (so saves against primes would be a CC of 17, against secondary would be 23), and then add the character's level as always - that will make saves hard at first level and easier as they level up.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Aramis »

Zardnaar wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:3 Core books usually means PHB, MM, DMG to me or the equivalents as I bought these on PDF. I know some games only have 1-2 core books like Pathfinder, ACKS, Rules Cyclopedia etc. I'm thinking about using some of the 2nd ed magic item/spell compendium books and maybe some kits.


Int thing that is flashing lights though is spell DCs so the base number is 18 in a bad save and you dd the level of the spell to that so a level 4 spell would be 22 and you roll a d20 and add your level, ability and any other modifiers? Seems toough to beat and worse than 3rd ed spell DCs in some ways. I have been liking BECMI/AD&D type saves recently or Myth and Magics Buffed fort/ref/will system. Having a 6 point difference between a good and bad save is kind of like 3rd ed again to me and that was one of the biggest turn offs in that system for me. Magic items being semi abundent in the C&C adventures I have bought so far but that was a main observation I noticed.
Actually, a spell's challenge level is equal to the caster, not the spell level. So a 1st level caster's spells would have a CL of 1 and a 5th level caster's would be 5 regardless of the level spell he is casting. That might seem a lot, but when you factor in level of the recipient (ie, a 5th level character adds 5 to his saving throws), it evens out in the end. However, the beauty of the SEIGE Engine allows you to change the challenge base (12/18) to something else if you want without breaking the game. I know people who use 10/15 for primes and others who use 8/14. The game plays the same. Personally, I love the fact that saves aren't a gimme at higher levels. It brings a bit of drama to those high level combats that I never experienced in any other form of D&D.

R-
Lol thats even worse. I like most of C&C but might just plug in AD&D saves.
Howdy Zardnaar.

As you can see from the previous posts, C&C is quite different from other communities in that houseruling is encouraged and practiced very widely. However, I would give it a run as a straight vanilla game at first, then by all means adapt it to your preferences. C&C is wonderfully modular and can accomodate any style from old school to 3E and beyond. It is ideally suited to 2E I find, because that is around where the power level is of the PCs and monsters.

As to your questions. The human 3rd prime is quite valuable in vanilla C&C because, as you have realised, with 6 possible save types and half having a roughly 20% success when the other factors balance out, that prime will come up quite a bit.

If you want to switch to Fort/Will/Reflex system or back to the AD&D system, C&C can certainly accomodate that. However, then the humans third prime becomes somewhat useless. You might give them a "Quick Learner" advantage which they can choose to provide either 1) +1 on all saving throws 2) +1 to hit with one class of weapons 3) +1 on all skill checks or 4) a bonus spell at highest spell level available. That would certainly give humans a nice boost, if the primes save system is not to your liking

If your players are used to 3E, don't resist their inevitable reliance on 3E terminology while playing C&C (i.e. "can I cleave the one beside him?" or "can I precise shot such and such?"). C&C can easily accomodate this as well. Just have them roll a SIEGE check vs the HD of the target, add their level and voila, all the 3E feats they are used to but with none of the builds or looking things up in the rulebooks.

Good luck

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by kreider204 »

Aramis wrote: As you can see from the previous posts, C&C is quite different from other communities in that houseruling is encouraged and practiced very widely. However, I would give it a run as a straight vanilla game at first, then by all means adapt it to your preferences.
Always the best advice, for any game whatsoever. It's amazing to me how many times I come across posts at various rpg forums about house rules from folks who haven't even run the game yet. Run it first, see how it actually plays, and then think about house rules to adapt it as you see fit.

Zardnaar
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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Zardnaar »

Aramis wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
Rigon wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:3 Core books usually means PHB, MM, DMG to me or the equivalents as I bought these on PDF. I know some games only have 1-2 core books like Pathfinder, ACKS, Rules Cyclopedia etc. I'm thinking about using some of the 2nd ed magic item/spell compendium books and maybe some kits.


Int thing that is flashing lights though is spell DCs so the base number is 18 in a bad save and you dd the level of the spell to that so a level 4 spell would be 22 and you roll a d20 and add your level, ability and any other modifiers? Seems toough to beat and worse than 3rd ed spell DCs in some ways. I have been liking BECMI/AD&D type saves recently or Myth and Magics Buffed fort/ref/will system. Having a 6 point difference between a good and bad save is kind of like 3rd ed again to me and that was one of the biggest turn offs in that system for me. Magic items being semi abundent in the C&C adventures I have bought so far but that was a main observation I noticed.
Actually, a spell's challenge level is equal to the caster, not the spell level. So a 1st level caster's spells would have a CL of 1 and a 5th level caster's would be 5 regardless of the level spell he is casting. That might seem a lot, but when you factor in level of the recipient (ie, a 5th level character adds 5 to his saving throws), it evens out in the end. However, the beauty of the SEIGE Engine allows you to change the challenge base (12/18) to something else if you want without breaking the game. I know people who use 10/15 for primes and others who use 8/14. The game plays the same. Personally, I love the fact that saves aren't a gimme at higher levels. It brings a bit of drama to those high level combats that I never experienced in any other form of D&D.

R-
Lol thats even worse. I like most of C&C but might just plug in AD&D saves.
Howdy Zardnaar.

As you can see from the previous posts, C&C is quite different from other communities in that houseruling is encouraged and practiced very widely. However, I would give it a run as a straight vanilla game at first, then by all means adapt it to your preferences. C&C is wonderfully modular and can accomodate any style from old school to 3E and beyond. It is ideally suited to 2E I find, because that is around where the power level is of the PCs and monsters.

As to your questions. The human 3rd prime is quite valuable in vanilla C&C because, as you have realised, with 6 possible save types and half having a roughly 20% success when the other factors balance out, that prime will come up quite a bit.

If you want to switch to Fort/Will/Reflex system or back to the AD&D system, C&C can certainly accomodate that. However, then the humans third prime becomes somewhat useless. You might give them a "Quick Learner" advantage which they can choose to provide either 1) +1 on all saving throws 2) +1 to hit with one class of weapons 3) +1 on all skill checks or 4) a bonus spell at highest spell level available. That would certainly give humans a nice boost, if the primes save system is not to your liking

If your players are used to 3E, don't resist their inevitable reliance on 3E terminology while playing C&C (i.e. "can I cleave the one beside him?" or "can I precise shot such and such?"). C&C can easily accomodate this as well. Just have them roll a SIEGE check vs the HD of the target, add their level and voila, all the 3E feats they are used to but with none of the builds or looking things up in the rulebooks.

Good luck
They have used other clones so they have got away from 3rd ed stuff over the last year. I do use things like ascending ACs and convert THAC0 to BAB to make that part of the game easier for them. When they 1st tried 2nd ed more or less btw they liked the game but struggled with THAC0 and some of the other ass backwards mechanics

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Rigon »

I agree with Aramis (don't let it go to your head). You should give it a try btb to see how the game plays. If you are still unsatisfied with the 12/18 Prime, you can change it. I had the same misgivings when I first started playing C&C back in aught-5, but found that it actually made the game more interesting, especially at higher levels. Plus, the strongest feature of C&C for me isn't the SIEGE Engine (a close second), it's the modularity of the game. You can stick whatever you want into the system and it still works perfectly fine.

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Re: C&C Newb

Post by csperkins1970 »

Hey Zardnaar,
A quick (and incredibly easy) fix to C&C, if you don't like primes, is to ditch them. Set the Challenge Base for all attribute checks, including saves, to 15 (or 13 if you're feeling generous).
To give humans a boost, give them a +1 to all attribute checks.
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Re: C&C Newb

Post by Fizz »

Welcome Zardnaar!

I'll echo what others have said. The strength of C&C is its flexibility. I swear everybody on these boards has their own variation for their own game. As for myself, in many ways i play a 2nd Ed AD&D game, but apply the SIEGE mechanic for all conflicts. It works great.

-Fizz

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