Paladin in PH 6

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Troll Lord
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Paladin in PH 6

Post by Troll Lord »

So Kim's paladin has hit 9th level, or is about to, and he gets Smite Evil.

Reading the ability we were all stunned by its actual weakness. Once a day, he can use this ability, and smite evil for +his level in damage and charisma modifier in to hit rolls.

That's not what was intended in the original. It was starting at 9th level, once per level he can smite evil.

As much as a whine about changing the game, this may have to be changed back to its intent.

Thoughts?

Steve
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by redwullf »

Troll Lord wrote:So Kim's paladin has hit 9th level, or is about to, and he gets Smite Evil.

Reading the ability we were all stunned by its actual weakness. Once a day, he can use this ability, and smite evil for +his level in damage and charisma modifier in to hit rolls.

That's not what was intended in the original. It was starting at 9th level, once per level he can smite evil.

As much as a whine about changing the game, this may have to be changed back to its intent.

Thoughts?

Steve
I think once per day per level is too much. Most of the "monsters" PCs fight are "evil" and I think this will unbalance the paladin too much against Fighters.

From OGL:
Smite Evil (Su)

Once per day, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.
I recommend limiting the use similarly, but perhaps staring it at a lower level, perhaps even first.

Smite Evil appeared in 3rd edition and has no real OD&D context. The paladin should really gain cleric spells at 9th level for a more AD&D-like effect. So, if you're going to dish up smite evil as a class ability than the OGL should be your guide. Again, my only concern is making a fighter an undesirable choice by comparison, because the fighter isn't getting comparable 3rd edition boosts.
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by AGNKim »

redwullf wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:So Kim's paladin has hit 9th level, or is about to, and he gets Smite Evil.

Reading the ability we were all stunned by its actual weakness. Once a day, he can use this ability, and smite evil for +his level in damage and charisma modifier in to hit rolls.

That's not what was intended in the original. It was starting at 9th level, once per level he can smite evil.

As much as a whine about changing the game, this may have to be changed back to its intent.

Thoughts?

Steve
I think once per day per level is too much
SHUT UP, DUDE! Gosh!

:lol:

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by redwullf »

AGNKim wrote:
redwullf wrote:
Troll Lord wrote:So Kim's paladin has hit 9th level, or is about to, and he gets Smite Evil.

Reading the ability we were all stunned by its actual weakness. Once a day, he can use this ability, and smite evil for +his level in damage and charisma modifier in to hit rolls.

That's not what was intended in the original. It was starting at 9th level, once per level he can smite evil.

As much as a whine about changing the game, this may have to be changed back to its intent.

Thoughts?

Steve
I think once per day per level is too much
SHUT UP, DUDE! Gosh!

:lol:
Ugh. Typical Paladin player. "I'm the best at everything, nya-nya-nya," and then whines on the rare off-chance something doesn't work out.

:twisted:
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Relaxo
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Relaxo »

I always though it was weak too.

How about: once per day per point of Chr modifier (once at minimum)
and
Add level to both to hit and to damage.

This keeps it simple, but powerful, yet not frequent.

And start at 1st level should be OK, since it scales with level. But if not, maybe 3rd, 5th or 9th.
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Fizz »

I always thought Smite was pretty wimpy too. I've always house-ruled it. But the modification of "per level" makes it too strong imo. In that case, it's a massive boom all at once. I mean, go from no Smites to 9 smites per day? That's effectively from nothing to 81 points of extra damage per day, with no ramp-up.

I think something similar to the d20 version (start at a lower level, once per day, more usages per day at higher levels) is a better way to go. It allows the power to grow more linearly with the characters level.

Just a thought...


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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Arduin »

Troll Lord wrote:
Thoughts?

Steve
Considering the sheer number of opponents it covers, it would be too powerful to go 1/day per level. The fighter (in a party that fights evil monsters) might as well not exist in that case...
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Treebore »

My house rule, been using ti for about 6, maybe 7, years now.

Paladins:
When they gain the Smite Evil ability they can use it once per day per level. OR they can choose to have "religious enemy" under the same rules as the Ranger's "enemy". Then choose a new one every two levels, like the Ranger does. They can only do one or the other, not both Smite and Religious Enemy. To clarify "enemy" choice, as a Paladin I allow it to also add +2 to Damage, and you can track them as well. However to explain why you can Track them and nothing else we will call it a divine power that acts like a very specific "Locate Object/Person" spell that lasts while there is a physical trail that could be followed by a Ranger.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Traveller »

9th Level is way too late. See if this works any better (based upon the Pathfinder SRD version of Smite Evil).
Smite Evil: Once per day, a 1st level paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. Smite evil adds the paladin’s charisma modifier (if positive) to the attack roll, and deals 1 extra hit point of damage per level of the paladin. If the target is an extraplanar creature, a dragon, or undead, the bonus to damage is 2 extra hit points per level. In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin's AC is modified by the charisma modifier (if positive) versus attacks made by the target of smite evil. This ability can be used once per day, and only on creatures of evil alignment.

The smite evil effect remains until the target is dead or until the following day when the paladin can use this ability again. Starting at 4th level and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day.

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Relaxo »

It could also ramp up like the druid shape change... 1/day at 5th level, 2/day at say, 7th level, 3/day at 9th... 4/day at 14th ish, every 6 levels thereafter .... ?
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Treebore »

Having it limited still makes it waaaay less powerful than the Rangers +1 damage per level, plus the players tend to under use it because they like to save it for the big guys. So never overpowered in my experience. I loved it when the 17th level Paladin was able to dish it out to the Pit Fiends.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Treebore »

Also note its an "attempt" so as written, if they miss it is wasted.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Relaxo »

Treebore wrote:Having it limited still makes it waaaay less powerful than the Rangers +1 damage per level, plus the players tend to under use it because they like to save it for the big guys. So never overpowered in my experience. I loved it when the 17th level Paladin was able to dish it out to the Pit Fiends.
could that be any more perfect?!
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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Fizz »

Traveller wrote:9th Level is way too late. See if this works any better (based upon the Pathfinder SRD version of Smite Evil).
Smite Evil: Once per day, a 1st level paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. Smite evil adds the paladin’s charisma modifier (if positive) to the attack roll, and deals 1 extra hit point of damage per level of the paladin. If the target is an extraplanar creature, a dragon, or undead, the bonus to damage is 2 extra hit points per level. In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin's AC is modified by the charisma modifier (if positive) versus attacks made by the target of smite evil. This ability can be used once per day, and only on creatures of evil alignment.

The smite evil effect remains until the target is dead or until the following day when the paladin can use this ability again. Starting at 4th level and at every three levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per day.
This is how i've done it, except the paladin gains Smite at 4th, not 1st.

-Fizz

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Fizz »

Treebore wrote:Having it limited still makes it waaaay less powerful than the Rangers +1 damage per level, plus the players tend to under use it because they like to save it for the big guys. So never overpowered in my experience. I loved it when the 17th level Paladin was able to dish it out to the Pit Fiends.
Well, i think that would depend how combat heavy the campaign is and what they're fighting. At 9th level, the ranger dishes out +9 damage per hit on one type of foe. The 9th level paladin could dish out a max of +81 damage on any type of -evil- foe. So the paladin's ability might be more generally useful (assuming most enemies are evil), but the ranger has higher upside against large numbers of one type of enemy.

Actually, i've always thought the Ranger's was overpowered too. I've always house-ruled the Ranger ability to be +1 / 2 levels. But that's a different topic. :)

-Fizz

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, BtB the Ranger deals out +1 damage per level against their most hated foes. I don't see it as over powered, it just means they can take on more of what I want to throw at them. Same for the Paladin. If they weren't getting the crap beat out of them at the same time, then I'd be concerned, but I fix that by controlling AC's versus the BtH/HD of what they are fighting. So regardless, I am happy with how my games go, so will stick with it regardless of what fix the Trolls decide upon, just like I always do.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by tylermo »

Stephen, I apologize in advance for shifting gears. If anybody can address issues regarding another class in a separate thread feel free. My friend (whom also commented about the way the siege engine is laid out)commented that the rouge gets hosed compared to other classes. He refered to the rogue's abilities in the ckg for sure, and maybe the phb. I apologize for not remembering his specific arguments, but he did say it wasn't entirely the Trolls' fault. He said this was a problem in earlier editions of D&D. I thought maybe some of you gurus could weigh in regarding this concern. If so, we'll start another thread. THANKS.

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Traveller »

Does your friend come from a d20 background? Because his thoughts seem to run along the lines of expecting the classes to be balanced against each other.

Perhaps we'll know more when you can get his specific arguments.

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Treebore »

Traveller wrote:Does your friend come from a d20 background? Because his thoughts seem to run along the lines of expecting the classes to be balanced against each other.

Perhaps we'll know more when you can get his specific arguments.

Yea, its a 3E thought pattern. Apparently Rogues are actually supposed to be fighters instead of thieving types who can sneak up behind you and hit you for nasty damage yet be a wet paper bag in a face to face fight against a real fighter. Plus being able to pick pockets, move silently, hide, climb walls like a spider, etc... are meaningless too.

My answer to guys like him is "Play a fighter. Ranger. Anything other than a Rogue/Thief."
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Traveller »

I'm actually more curious about his specific comments regarding how the Siege Engine is laid out then whether he is looking at the rogue through d20-colored glasses.

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by Treebore »

Traveller wrote:I'm actually more curious about his specific comments regarding how the Siege Engine is laid out then whether he is looking at the rogue through d20-colored glasses.

Yeah, that is a curious statement. I've been running it so long using the SIEGE engine is like breathing to me, so have a hard time remembering what my problems with the engine itself were. Sure, I have house ruled a lot of things, but not the Engine itself. I can only guess its about determining CL's, or that its an "opposed" system, IE level versus level. Or the typical problems with Prime versus non Prime, etc...
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by tylermo »

I'm going to move this topic as not to hijack Stephen's thread. I spoke vaguely enough to inadvertently confuse some folks, especially regarding the Siege Engine comment. Lol

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Re: Paladin in PH 6

Post by koralas »

Troll Lord wrote:So Kim's paladin has hit 9th level, or is about to, and he gets Smite Evil.

Reading the ability we were all stunned by its actual weakness. Once a day, he can use this ability, and smite evil for +his level in damage and charisma modifier in to hit rolls.

That's not what was intended in the original. It was starting at 9th level, once per level he can smite evil.

As much as a whine about changing the game, this may have to be changed back to its intent.

Thoughts?

Steve
What about making it simply 1/day for every 3 levels. Obviously declared before the die is rolled...

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