Omote wrote: Treebore wrote:
The point is, there is much more to think about then simply adding a few more pages to the books based on what only a few people claim to want on these MBs.
Let me point out there are only a few people claiming they don't want any of this too.
There are over 12,000 PHBs in print (TLG stated this earlier in the summer of 2013), yet only few people on these message boards are calling this an issue. Take this for what it is, but it's probably not necessary to change the page count because a dozen players (out of thousands) see the need for change. Look, I also want the game to be clear as possible, but not at the sacrifice of having page bloat. Looking back, I played Mentzer D&D for decades and that game is pretty vague at times, and doesn't have weapon pictures or all descriptions, etc. some of the same things being discussed here. Other than these board, I have heard some people say they wanted the same types of things. But where does it stop? How far do you go before the C&C game becomes something that the majority of players who don't voice their opinions here lose faith in the game because there is too much? I play C&C regularly with a group of about 12 players among 2 campaigns. 2 players have brought this some discussion up as issues. As CK I go over the rules when necessary, and that is that. Only one other player consistently wants change to the C&C game to clarify (almost literally) everything.
But there is another side to that coin. I would say that there are 8 out of the 12 players that still play with 3rd and 4th printing C&C PHB books. For fact, none of them complain or even care about this discussion at all. When the new shiny 5th printing books came out, most of them never even upgraded ~ despite me trying to sell them into buying new PHBs, even when they are on sale.
Using my little microcosm of the C&C player universe, 67% of the players don't care even one ounce about this discussion. Only 8% cares enough to make repeated requests for change.
Again, personally I wouldn't mind clarity added to the game. Many of the suggestions here are valid or good. But, please... PLEASE LORDS OF TROLL, do not clarify the game to the point of C&C becoming a sterile clone of 3rd edition.
What does that have to do with anything? You know who we hear absolutely nothing from? The people who refuse to play C&C. Those are the people we really need to hear from and determine what can be done to get them to play and LIKE C&C. Thats how you grow the market.
What little I have heard on OTHER forums is they don't like the 12/18 split of the SIEGE engine, how crappy the editing is, how crappy the layout/organization is, and how incomplete the rules are.
I am someone who loves C&C, and I agree with them on everything except the 12/18 split.
So if people do want to "grow" the popularity of C&C, then the complaints against it have to be listened to and acted upon. Not ignored just because you THINK not enough people are complaining. There aren't that many complaining because there aren't that many playing C&C in the first place.
Look at the WOTC boards. They have 100's of thousands of people presumably playing their D&D, yet you see less than 1% of that number ever commenting about anything at their forums. Yet WOTC does listen to them, and when they see a valid complaint, or good ideas for solutions, they do usually fix the problem or implement the solution. Something TLG does as well, but they still have things that can be done, and should, if they want their sales to grow.
People who love C&C exactly as it is are already taken care of. They already have their copies of the books and are happily playing away. Now its time to clean it up and fix it up in order to attract those who have refused to play it for the known reasons. Its no skin off of my back if TLG doesn't do it. I have two solid groups I have been gaming with for 4 and 6 years, respectively. What TLG does or doesn't do will not affect that for me. So if they want to keep ignoring repeated complaints, more power to them. Its their RPG, and their company. I have my 20+ Player Handbooks and 4 M&T's and I have everything in PDF. So TLG could go out of business tomorrow and I'll be continuing to play C&C until I quit gaming. I would prefer they stay in business and that the popularity of C&C grows much more rapidly. If it doesn't, I am not going to lose anything because of it.
So TLG can continue to stay the same, and continue to see very little growth, or they can try to do something about it. Its completely up to them, like it always has been, and always will be.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael
Grand Knight Commander of the Society.