lack lustor missle damage

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londonsmee
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lack lustor missle damage

Post by londonsmee »

I'm not that impressed with dice damage done at present so thinking of doubling the all missle so a long bow would do 2d6 so to increase the average and potential max damage. A hvy xbow would have a whopping 2d10.Thoughts on why I shouldn't bring it in? Consider armour absorption too but that's a different subject.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Arduin »

Considering that a Longbow will instantly kill a human with one hit 50% of the time I don't see a damage issue...
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Treebore »

londonsmee wrote:I'm not that impressed with dice damage done at present so thinking of doubling the all missle so a long bow would do 2d6 so to increase the average and potential max damage. A hvy xbow would have a whopping 2d10.Thoughts on why I shouldn't bring it in? Consider armour absorption too but that's a different subject.

The damage system, as is, does scale nicely with C&C over all. I myself do allow for Specialization and STR adjustments, as well as the Expert and magic possibilities. I wouldn't go so far as to increase the damage dice, though.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Treebore »

An idea I have been toying with, mostly for the fighter class, is to, in a way, increase the Critical range every few levels. Not to use a crit system per se, but to allow the fighter to add an additional D6 to their damage, with whatever weapon they use. So at first to maybe 3rd level, they add it on a unmodified 20. Then from 4th to 6th, they add the D6 on a unmodified 19 and 20, then for 7th and 8th, they add it on a unmodified 18 to 20, and so on. If you also use a crit system, they would get that additional damage die multiplied as well. Assuming your crit system multiplies damage. I see some that just modify things, like movement, attacks, and other things.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by serleran »

Sadly, missile weapons are less about their overall damage and more about how quickly they do it and at what range. The crossbow is the odd-man out in that regard. Bows... no. They have incredible range and they do good damage for it, plus, with the CKG, you can fire many shots a round. Adding damage and that = why fight melee, ever, unless forced which is good in theory I guess but really puts the boring into boring beetles.

Anyway the point is that damage is 1 factor. There are others, like cheapness, weight, range, skill requirements, etc etc. Throwing them all out is a huge disservice.

Consider them, at least, and then decide to muck it up with ignoring them.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by nwelte1 »

Damage is fine. In my last session, the 4 or 5 party members took out 3 ogres with arrow fire in one surprise round and one regular round. Poor ogres had no chance.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by londonsmee »

nwelte1 wrote:Damage is fine. In my last session, the 4 or 5 party members took out 3 ogres with arrow fire in one surprise round and one regular round. Poor ogres had no chance.
ok go with what you said.

3 ogres with 4d8 each with average hits would be between (12-48-96) 48 total hits to kill all 3 ogres, I would have stacked them with more HTK with 5 party members.

If you have 5 party members each using say a short bow with d6 all hitting would be possible 10d6 over the 2 rounds would be possible 10-30-60 points of damage. But then again a surprise round doesn't all the time then the party would have more like 15-30 which would have taken say only one ogre.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Treebore »

londonsmee wrote:
nwelte1 wrote:Damage is fine. In my last session, the 4 or 5 party members took out 3 ogres with arrow fire in one surprise round and one regular round. Poor ogres had no chance.
ok go with what you said.

3 ogres with 4d8 each with average hits would be between (12-48-96) 48 total hits to kill all 3 ogres, I would have stacked them with more HTK with 5 party members.

If you have 5 party members each using say a short bow with d6 all hitting would be possible 10d6 over the 2 rounds would be possible 10-30-60 points of damage. But then again a surprise round doesn't all the time then the party would have more like 15-30 which would have taken say only one ogre.
Still pretty nasty. Also consider when the CK gets to use it against the players. Do you want your PC getting hit with a bunch of 2D6 arrows? Don't think so, you won't last long.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by serleran »

londonsmee wrote:
nwelte1 wrote:Damage is fine. In my last session, the 4 or 5 party members took out 3 ogres with arrow fire in one surprise round and one regular round. Poor ogres had no chance.
ok go with what you said.

3 ogres with 4d8 each with average hits would be between (12-48-96) 48 total hits to kill all 3 ogres, I would have stacked them with more HTK with 5 party members.

If you have 5 party members each using say a short bow with d6 all hitting would be possible 10d6 over the 2 rounds would be possible 10-30-60 points of damage. But then again a surprise round doesn't all the time then the party would have more like 15-30 which would have taken say only one ogre.
A surprise round, depending on the rules, could be the equivalent of 3 rounds, plus the additional +1 round. If additional loosing is allowed per round, such as per AD&D or the CKG, 4 - 5 characters firing 2 - 3 shots each for 4 rounds is not shabby especially considering they might have had Strength adjustment (from specially crafted bows) or magic to add to the damage... or, they may have, as I have introduced, alternate arrows which can inflict greater damage. After all, the arrow is the part that hurts. Well, the arrowhead.

So, without knowing the full details, it is highly plausible. Less so if everyone had a 3 Strength and one arrow apiece.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by londonsmee »

Wasn't thinking of hitting them, with a regiment of archers. As they are all around the 5th lvl mark 1d6 don't do a lot.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Arduin »

londonsmee wrote:Wasn't thinking of hitting them, with a regiment of archers. As they are all around the 5th lvl mark 1d6 don't do a lot.
A 5th level wizard has ~14 h.p. So, it'll "do enough"....
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Lurker »

Arduin wrote:
londonsmee wrote:Wasn't thinking of hitting them, with a regiment of archers. As they are all around the 5th lvl mark 1d6 don't do a lot.
A 5th level wizard has ~14 h.p. So, it'll "do enough"....
Plus a shower of arrows all aimed at the cleric, in the next round taking him down or hurting him in a very bad way. Thus panicking the rest of the party ... humble arrows used well (by either the party or the bad guys) can lay waste.

That said, a single archer or one using the bow & arrows unwisely, (like the average party)is unimpressive and ineffective.
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Omote »

I used weapon mastery in my games and multiple arrow shots per round (see link below). These types of rules have allowed bows to be very deadly, particularly if you allow for bows that add STR mod to damage.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

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Lurker wrote: That said, a single archer or one using the bow & arrows unwisely, (like the average party)is unimpressive and ineffective.
Everyone should carry some type of missile weapon. Even a cleric. If for no other reason than to put opponents on the immediate defensive and to break up any potential charge. Even the cleric might hit a bad guy.
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

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Arduin wrote:
Lurker wrote: That said, a single archer or one using the bow & arrows unwisely, (like the average party)is unimpressive and ineffective.
Everyone should carry some type of missile weapon. Even a cleric. If for no other reason than to put opponents on the immediate defensive and to break up any potential charge. Even the cleric might hit a bad guy.

Rgr on that, but so few do. :roll:

I remember a character back in the day, a cleric. I had a light hammer that could be thrown. The party had walked into an ambush and been mauled fairly badly. We were charged by the dark knight leading the enemy. I threw the hammer rolled to hit and then maxed damage which stoped him in his tracks (didn't kill him though). Everyone was quiet around the table I laughed and then charged the stunned knight. That throw saved the party :D

Yes everyone needs some ranged weapon!
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Arduin »

Lurker wrote:
Arduin wrote:
Lurker wrote: That said, a single archer or one using the bow & arrows unwisely, (like the average party)is unimpressive and ineffective.
Everyone should carry some type of missile weapon. Even a cleric. If for no other reason than to put opponents on the immediate defensive and to break up any potential charge. Even the cleric might hit a bad guy.

Rgr on that, but so few do. :roll:

I remember a character back in the day, a cleric. I had a light hammer that could be thrown. The party had walked into an ambush and been mauled fairly badly. We were charged by the dark knight leading the enemy. I threw the hammer rolled to hit and then maxed damage which stoped him in his tracks (didn't kill him though). Everyone was quiet around the table I laughed and then charged the stunned knight. That throw saved the party :D

Yes everyone needs some ranged weapon!
Great graphic example there! This is where the party's Fighter type comes into play. Dictating basic martial tactics of the team. Or, should be if the player is role playing.
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Bowbe »

Arrows historically are one of the worst ways to die in combat because you don't usually die "instantly" even from a "fatal" shot. You die from bleeding out, shock, or sepsis...or multiple arrows which attribute to the above 3. Native Americans using a version of a composite type bow would frequently put a half dozen arrows into a foe. Frequently into arms, legs, kidneys, to prolong their enemies suffering.

Saying that a longbow arrow (simply because someone said it and meaning no offense :) ) kills a man 50% of the time is probably accurate but again it doesn't usually kill them instantly. Hence we have a game of tactical simulations which utilizes "hit points" to indicate liveliness and survivability in combat even after one has suffered "mortal wounds." This is because we have "magic" which keep you from dying from grievous injuries that would kill you half the time, or allies who can bind your wounds to keep you from bleeding out after the encounter has completed.

RPG rules, going back to brown box have always (cleverly in my mind) simulated a persons heroic fortitude in the face of deadly battle. There are many instances in real life of fights to the death where the combatant was given a wound that would eventually kill them, yet managed to hold the line against oppressive numbers of foes while dying. Congressional medal of honor transcripts are loaded with such stories.

To think of it another way, if you aren't using a mechanically enhanced compound bow (Magic bow +5 anyone?)... but a longbow or classic laminate recurve... if you happen to shoot a deer somewhere above and behind the foreleg shoulder (an amazing shot, even for an expert hunter) on your first shot... how far does it run through the brush before it is "dead". How many seconds that seem like forever? What if you pierce the lungs instead of hitting the heart+lungs? What if you get it in the neck and have to adjust for a follow up shot? How far must you track it? How many seconds will it run? How many minutes?

Game combat, although as realistic as we can imagine it, is abstracted. This is true regardless of any completely alternate and completely optional rules are offered in the fully optional Castle Keepers Guide. Optional rules that are merely reflections of very similar rules that have existed in d20 style RPGs since... the 1970s. :)

Also... a first level guy who takes max damage from an arrow would probably die 50% of the time anyhow, and a 0th level human would definitely die outright from an arrow to the knee :) !

Long story short, its your game. You want to double the damage do so if you want to!

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Arduin »

Bowbe wrote:Arrows historically are one of the worst ways to die in combat because you don't usually die "instantly" even from a "fatal" shot. You die from bleeding out, shock, or sepsis!
This was true of any deep puncture wound. Applied to musket ball, grape shot & the like also.
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Bowbe »

Yup. :)

My only exception is that a 7/10ths inch round ball hitting you anywhere on the body within defined fantasy RPG ranges of engagement is going to leave a hole in someone big enough to clearly see through... and grapeshot being like 10 of those? That is why I gave a D8 to the smoothbore round ball in the alternate CKG rules. It could reasonably kill most 1st level characters (exceptions being max hp "fighter" types). Just like a sword or battle axe. In terms of use against a 1st level character, 1-3 HD monster, or a 1-2 hp commoner they are extremely deadly weapons.

Thats also why I made grapeshot a "cone" of damage that requires a reflex save to avoid taking full damage. Though I do see that what is written was researched accurately in 8 lb. canister but of course my chart is off and offers up to 10 lb. FML! Then again its your campaign make it 10 lb haha make it 100 lb. canister. All good as long as your friends don't leave you.

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Fizz »

I think damage from ranged weapons should not be increased. Consider- take a side of beef. Hit it as hard as you can with a long sword. Now shoot an arrow into it with a longbow. The hit from the sword is much more gruesome. I've seen demos of this (must be on youtube somewhere), and it makes quite a statement about relative lethality. Of course, both can kill you outright. But after seeing that demo, if i had to choose, i think i'd rather get shot with a bow.

My only issues with the damages for ranged weapons (bows really) is that they should correlate to range (assuming equivalent ammunition). That is: Distance is proportional to kinetic energy. If you go on the premise that damage is also proportional to kinetic energy, then the bows with longer range should do higher damage. But this is not the case by-the-book. (Fortunately an easy house-rule fix... heh.)

If you wanted to be even more "realistic" about it, damage would actually change with range. As ammunition travels air drag slows it down. A bodkin arrow from a longbow might be able to penetrate heavy armor, but not likely from it's maximum range.

But that's a whole other discussion. As far as comparing bow damage to sword damage, i think they're more than fair.


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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Arduin »

Bowbe wrote:Yup. :)

My only exception is that a 7/10ths inch round ball hitting you anywhere on the body within defined fantasy RPG ranges of engagement is going to leave a hole in someone big enough to clearly see through
True. However, if you aren't using a rifled barrel, a single gunner isn't likely to hit what he's aiming at. That's why they used a line of men packed shoulder to shoulder against the enemy line packed together...
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

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This whole thing got me thinking, My father (remember I'm the young one in this whole adventure stuff) played AD&D as a teenage child and they engineered a ballista using fireball necklace, they put the beads in side the ballista bolt nice a snug like apart from eachother with the bead next to the head of the ballista bolt inside the shaft so it explode when the bolt made contact launching the "tigger" for the next fireball bead to explode the second one creating a chain reaction, while I think this is ingenious and am not terribly surprised my father thought of this he does on occasion tend to be a mean nasty person, we all love him regardless of this fact of life.

What if we took the beads off and attached them as arrow heads?

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

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Dracyian wrote: What if we took the beads off and attached them as arrow heads?
Assuming that the beads are about the size of a pearl on a necklace, it would be better to attach them to the arrowhead but, you'd have a very good anti-personnel weapon! :twisted:
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

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Do you have to be a magic user to use the beads or can a ranger/fighter person use the beads attached to arrow heads?

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Bowbe »

Arduin... the old brown bess was a lot more accurate than you may have been led to believe. I know old timers like my dad and some of his friends who hunt with non rifled Italian replicas to this very day. Inside of 25 yards they are quite accurate, out to 50 yards are still serviceable as a hunting firearm. Some old guys I know like this because to them it makes the hunt more sporting. Likewise you connect with a 7/10ths of an inch round ball... the deer tends to just flop, so less following and dragging through the woods.

At 100+ yards you are definitely pushing the range of the weapon, but again that depends on how tightly the ball is packed, with what wadding, and the practice/skill of the shooter. You may hit a man sized target, though not necessarily where you want to! At 100 yards away... they may charge you but you should have enough time to reload at least once before they get to you. Unless they are a professional athlete (80 yards in 8 seconds? Two rounds to make the full 100?). Most soldiers weren't trained to shoot "at" a target they were trained to shoot shoulder to shoulder in mass because the "wall of lead" was such an effective and devastating tactic in its day.

In RPG terms most combat engagements seem to take place within 50 feet. Well within the accurate range of a smoothbore musket. Ship to ship engagements in the days of sail would have taken place in similarly tight quarters, especially when the ships are lashed and you are boarding/fighting off boarders.

The long land pattern gun served well for hunting and personal defense for over 100 years. Nowhere near the accuracy or the range of its contemporary, the .50 caliber long rifle, but still quite a serviceable weapon with common availability and common use. It was the "Assault weapon" and primary meat gatherer of its day, where as the long rifle was the "sniper rifle" of its day, and was considerably more expensive for the common man to own.

A rules adjustment for the smoothbore may be to simply remove a second range increment? Anyhow. Neat thread! Game on! Makes me want to write a french and indian war themed adventure with Fields of Battle rules applied!

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Arduin »

Dracyian wrote:Do you have to be a magic user to use the beads or can a ranger/fighter person use the beads attached to arrow heads?
Anyone can use them.
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

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Bowbe wrote:Arduin... the old brown bess was a lot more accurate than you may have been led to believe.

I've tested exact replicas of those used in the Revolutionary war with a friend who is a USMC sniper. They are VERY inaccurate. At 70+ paces it is dumb luck if you hit a man sized target. That's why it came as a shock when US troops started using German designed rifled gun in the 18th century.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNkurKylIQo

In fact as late as Waterloo Wellington said that he would rather have Longbow men because the smooth-bore guns were horribly inaccurate.
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Snoring Rock »

I must put my hat in the ring here. I am an historic re-enactor and I build guns as a hobby. I own a Brown Bess musket, a Pennsylvania rifle (designed after the Jager -- German rifle), a smooth bore 1812 land service pistol and an 1804 Harper's Ferry (Louis & Clark expedition) rifle.

First, anyone with a bow and arrow loses hands down. Do not take a bow to a gun fight. The Spanish whipped ass with matchlocks in the largest, strongest empire in the Americas 200 years before the rifle was invented. Guns beat arrows every time.

It takes more skill and is good up to 200 yards with a skilled user, but the Pennsylvania is lethal in the hands of a novice at 75 yards. Some practice, makes you deadly at 100 yards.

The ole Brown Bess will blast very large holes in people. It is NOT a hunting gun. It is a man killer. It loads 5 times as fast as a rifle (no rifling) and is accurate up to 100 yards in skilled hands. It is deadly at 50 yards with a beginner. The point of that 72 caliber ball, it that when it hits your arm, it opened up like a dinner plate and takes it clean off. The rifle is manufactured to make meat. The musket was made to kill men.

The pistol......point blank for lessening the time after being gut-shot. This is not a weapon. It just makes the inevitable faster. Cant hit the barn as any angle at 50 yards.

In a game I would do it thus:

Rifle gets +5 to hit with normal damage -- range 200 yards.
Musket gets +3 to hit with maximum double damage on every hit -- range 100 yards.
Throw the pistol like a hatchet for bludgeoning damage.

:)

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Re: lack lustor missle damage

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Snoring Rock wrote:I must put my hat in the ring here. I am an historic re-enactor and I build guns as a hobby. I own a Brown Bess musket, a Pennsylvania rifle (designed after the Jager -- German rifle), a smooth bore 1812 land service pistol and an 1804 Harper's Ferry (Louis & Clark expedition) rifle.

First, anyone with a bow and arrow loses hands down.
Given having the bowmen, accuracy is better, RoF is better, damage is sufficient. (Over the Brown Bess) Which is why he would have choosen the longbow option to fight Napoleon.

When YOU have as much actual period battlefield experience as Wellington I might take your evaluation over his... Until then, no.
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Re: lack lustor missle damage

Post by Bowbe »

Before this turns hostile let me state: Beef Wellington is delicious. I have a recipe for Basilisk similarly prepared in the "Dirty Bowbe's Roadhouse Recipes" cook book ;)

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