The Fighter...

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Treebore
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The Fighter...

Post by Treebore »

Has anyone done anything to make this class a little more impressive? Even if it required creating a new XP table because of it?

Just come up with ideas you would like to try some day?

Please share.

As anyone who plays in my game should know, I already did this:

"Combat Dominance is now "Mass Combat Dominance". They get multiple attacks per round whenever the Fighter is taking on 3 or more opponents at one time. Irregardless of HD. 1 attack per opponent, this replaces any other attacks."

Been using it for years, and when the fighters attack rolls are hot, it is pretty impressive. Of course, when their rolls are bad, it still feels like a dud.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Snoring Rock
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Snoring Rock »

I dont know. I dont like giving 3 attacks per turn. That kills any looking forward to the day when you get more than on attack per turn. It also kills cleave, which is something I grant out of the CKG as an Advantage. I use the Advantage system and I like it.

If the fighter is say, 6HD higher than the opponent rather than the opponents being 1HD....that may be Ok with me. I dont like them always having to be 1HD...that is a bit lame.

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote:Has anyone done anything to make this class a little more impressive? Even if it required creating a new XP table because of it?
I've been looking at modifying the XP table for fighters down, rather than beefing the abilities up. For instance, the XP progression shows that a 12th fighter is better/more powerful than a 12th cleric. Poppycock I say.
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Ieuane
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Ieuane »

Arduin wrote:
Treebore wrote:Has anyone done anything to make this class a little more impressive? Even if it required creating a new XP table because of it?
I've been looking at modifying the XP table for fighters down, rather than beefing the abilities up. For instance, the XP progression shows that a 12th fighter is better/more powerful than a 12th cleric. Poppycock I say.
I second that. ;)

The fighter is a hard sell in this day and age, because what makes the fighter a good class has all the gray on white pizzazz of telling someone his new car comes with tires: armor & weapon proficiencies, hit dice, attack bonus, and weapon specialization. Other stuff I've tried,

1. Let fighters make a hand to hand attack as a move action.
2. Increase crit range by 1 every 4 or 5 levels
3. Used the AD&D extra attacks rate, the one that has 3/2 attacks

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Relaxo »

But this one comes with TIRES! LOL that example kills me!
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Treebore »

Snoring Rock wrote:I dont know. I dont like giving 3 attacks per turn. That kills any looking forward to the day when you get more than on attack per turn. It also kills cleave, which is something I grant out of the CKG as an Advantage. I use the Advantage system and I like it.

If the fighter is say, 6HD higher than the opponent rather than the opponents being 1HD....that may be Ok with me. I dont like them always having to be 1HD...that is a bit lame.

I actually made Combat Dominance useful through all levels. Sorry, but at some point, they never fight creatures of 1 HD or less ever again, so I gave them a different version that is "triggered" when fighting 3 or more opponents at once. Plus they get one attack per opponent, so if they are surrounded by 8 opponents, they get 8 attacks. Yes, it is inspired by the 3E Whirlwind Attack. Which you could conceivably get by 4th level in 3E.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by serleran »

I change the extra attack ability -- it is gained at 7th level, and again at 14th. Also, at 9th level, the fighter gets a retinue of followers, forming a war-band. To entice the player to play a fighter, I also give them some assumed abilities, none of which are really written down, such as determination of weapon and armor quality and they also have some basic blacksmith knowledge (as do all dwarfs, which means a typical dwarf fighter just knows more.) I also allow, in theory, the "smash" maneuver which I recall seeing at first in the Basic D&D Rules Cyclopedia, but there are conditions for its use and is reminiscent of the d20 "power attack feat."

I have been toying with other ideas, as well, such as having weapon specialization (when gained the second time) grant different abilities like an increase damage type (complicated) or a faster initiative. But, I have not actually implemented it so I can't say it works.

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Snoring Rock »

Gee Tree, it just seems like a lot of abilty. I have nevr had anyone ever complain. Do you really think the fighter RAW is wek or under-powered. I just never thought about it.

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Ieuane »

Treebore wrote:I actually made Combat Dominance useful through all levels. Sorry, but at some point, they never fight creatures of 1 HD or less ever again, so I gave them a different version that is "triggered" when fighting 3 or more opponents at once. Plus they get one attack per opponent, so if they are surrounded by 8 opponents, they get 8 attacks. Yes, it is inspired by the 3E Whirlwind Attack. Which you could conceivably get by 4th level in 3E.

I did that (use it at 1st) at one time too, but not a bonus attack per opponent. The 1 hd or less thing was always like chewing on a piece of the tin foil wrapper stuck to your stick of gum.

The charm of minimizing bonus attacks is to speed up the rotation around the table. If it is restricted to the fighter (and the monk) as a base class ability, though, ol’ Heavy Metal may shine a bit more. Here's a possible revision I think stays closer to the CnC original,

Combat Dominance(also replaces the Extra Attack)
First Level > Against a monster with 1 hit dice or less, the fighter receives a free additional melee attack at his maximum attack bonus. If two or more monsters of varying hit dice are present, this attack must be made against a monster with 1 hit dice or less.
Fourth Level > The fighter has the option to divide his maximum melee attack bonus into separate attacks. He divides his total attack bonus with all modifiers (strength mod., magic bonuses, buff bonuses, etc.), not just the base attack bonus. He cannot move between attacks, and they are always melee attacks. The total number of additional attacks per round equals one per four Fighter levels. At 4th level the fighter could divide his bonus into 2 attacks, at 8th level into 3 attacks, and at 12th level into 4 attacks. He must use at least +1 per attack. This option stacks with the free attack against a monster of 1 hit dice or less. Example: A 5th level fighter with a melee attack bonus of +8 could make two attacks at any of the following bonuses: +7/+1, +6/+2, +5/+3, +4/+4.
Tenth Level > A fighter receives one additional melee attack per round. This attack uses his maximum attack bonus, and must be the first attack he makes during the round. This extra attack may be used in addition to the bonus attack against a monster of 1 hit dice or less, and any bonus attacks from dividing his melee attack bonus into separate attacks.

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Lurker »

I had an idea on changes I’d add, but never was able to play test it to work out any unforeseen bugs in it. They boiled down to:

Adding combat styles (the idea comes from an earlier crusade mag) with styles like finesse fighting, sword & shield, 2 handed, and a couple others. Fighter got it at first level, Ranger and knight got it at 4th, & Paladin at 5th.

Weapon specialization at 3rd level (I can’t remember when they got it a second etc time, or when rangers/knights/paladins got it)

Combat dominance was changed so that the ability worked for 1HD monsters from 4-6 level, 2HD monsters at 7-9 level, & 3HD 10+ level (I tend not to do high level so never progressed it beyond that)

Extra attack at level 5, 10 etc – Ranger/knight at 7, 12 & Paladin/Cleric at 10th

I’d kicked an idea around for fighters (and rangers if it was a preferred enemy) on a cleave like ability where if a damage roll took the monster down to 0 hp, the remaining damage could be added to an adjacent (with in the attack arc) monster if the original to hit would have hit on the additional monster. – no hitting an orc then having the extra damage go to an ogre unless the to hit would have hit said ogre
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Ancalagon
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Ancalagon »

Treebore wrote:Has anyone done anything to make this class a little more impressive? Even if it required creating a new XP table because of it?
Nope. The fighter class works fine in my group. The only complaints come from players who have problems rolling double digit numbers on their d20s. ;)
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Treebore »

Ieuane wrote:
Treebore wrote:I actually made Combat Dominance useful through all levels. Sorry, but at some point, they never fight creatures of 1 HD or less ever again, so I gave them a different version that is "triggered" when fighting 3 or more opponents at once. Plus they get one attack per opponent, so if they are surrounded by 8 opponents, they get 8 attacks. Yes, it is inspired by the 3E Whirlwind Attack. Which you could conceivably get by 4th level in 3E.

I did that (use it at 1st) at one time too, but not a bonus attack per opponent. The 1 hd or less thing was always like chewing on a piece of the tin foil wrapper stuck to your stick of gum.

The charm of minimizing bonus attacks is to speed up the rotation around the table. If it is restricted to the fighter (and the monk) as a base class ability, though, ol’ Heavy Metal may shine a bit more. Here's a possible revision I think stays closer to the CnC original,

Combat Dominance(also replaces the Extra Attack)
First Level > Against a monster with 1 hit dice or less, the fighter receives a free additional melee attack at his maximum attack bonus. If two or more monsters of varying hit dice are present, this attack must be made against a monster with 1 hit dice or less.
Fourth Level > The fighter has the option to divide his maximum melee attack bonus into separate attacks. He divides his total attack bonus with all modifiers (strength mod., magic bonuses, buff bonuses, etc.), not just the base attack bonus. He cannot move between attacks, and they are always melee attacks. The total number of additional attacks per round equals one per four Fighter levels. At 4th level the fighter could divide his bonus into 2 attacks, at 8th level into 3 attacks, and at 12th level into 4 attacks. He must use at least +1 per attack. This option stacks with the free attack against a monster of 1 hit dice or less. Example: A 5th level fighter with a melee attack bonus of +8 could make two attacks at any of the following bonuses: +7/+1, +6/+2, +5/+3, +4/+4.
Tenth Level > A fighter receives one additional melee attack per round. This attack uses his maximum attack bonus, and must be the first attack he makes during the round. This extra attack may be used in addition to the bonus attack against a monster of 1 hit dice or less, and any bonus attacks from dividing his melee attack bonus into separate attacks.

What else do you have in your house rules that makes saying "This attack uses his maximum attack bonus" so important? At least I assume you word it like that due to house rules, since there is no reason to do so with rules by the book, since nothing allows you to use anything less than your maximum attack bonus.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Treebore »

Lurker wrote:I had an idea on changes I’d add, but never was able to play test it to work out any unforeseen bugs in it. They boiled down to:

Adding combat styles (the idea comes from an earlier crusade mag) with styles like finesse fighting, sword & shield, 2 handed, and a couple others. Fighter got it at first level, Ranger and knight got it at 4th, & Paladin at 5th.

Weapon specialization at 3rd level (I can’t remember when they got it a second etc time, or when rangers/knights/paladins got it)

Combat dominance was changed so that the ability worked for 1HD monsters from 4-6 level, 2HD monsters at 7-9 level, & 3HD 10+ level (I tend not to do high level so never progressed it beyond that)

Extra attack at level 5, 10 etc – Ranger/knight at 7, 12 & Paladin/Cleric at 10th

I’d kicked an idea around for fighters (and rangers if it was a preferred enemy) on a cleave like ability where if a damage roll took the monster down to 0 hp, the remaining damage could be added to an adjacent (with in the attack arc) monster if the original to hit would have hit on the additional monster. – no hitting an orc then having the extra damage go to an ogre unless the to hit would have hit said ogre
Do you by chance remember which issue it was? I bought the compilations, so can definitely find it, but if you know the precise issue, it would go faster than reading through the first 6 to 8 issues to find it.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by nightstorm »

I think the fighter is great as is, IF you use the progressions I found on a pdf known only as hlc. Don't know who did this pdf, but I love it. This is the fighter after level 12:


Combat Dominance continues to advance after 12th level, granting an additional attack at levels 16 and 20 against
creatures with a single hit die of d6 or smaller.

Weapon Specialization: A Fighter’s Weapon Specialization bonus increases to +3 at level 15, and to +4 at level 20.

Cleave: At level 15, a Fighter gains the ability to cleave through his foes in combat. When fighting with a melee weapon, if the fighter deals a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), he gets an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. The fighter cannot move before making this extra attack. The extra
attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. The fighter can use this ability once per round, but it does stack with Extra Attack (meaning the fighter can cleave, then still take a second attack using his Extra Attack ability). Atlevel 18, the Cleave ability is useable more than once per round. Every time the fighter kills a creature, he may immediately attack another within reach.

Improved Combat Dominance: At levels higher than 12, the Fighter may use his Combat Dominance ability is usable against creatures with a hit die of d8 or smaller. Also, at level 15, the Fighter’s Combat Dominance is usable against creatures with up to 5 hit dice. At level 18, the Combat Dominance is usable against creatures with up to 8 hit dice, and at level 20, Combat Dominance is usable against creatures with up to
10 hit dice.

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Lord Dynel »

My reply is part devil's advocate, and part flat-out honesty, but I just don't see the issue with fighter. The XP requirements are already pretty low - their requirements are a bit more steep than the rogue and assassin, comparable to the ranger and bard, but lower than everyone else (if I recall correctly) until about 10th level, when the fighter receives his second attack. And I think that is worth the XP bump. That's my opinion, though. By 9th level, the fighter has a +2 to hit and +2 damage with his weapon of choice, gets two extra attacks against 1-HD foes, has the best BtH bonus in the game, and is up there with the best hit points, armor selections, and weapon selections. To me, that's plenty.
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Ieuane »

Treebore wrote:What else do you have in your house rules that makes saying "This attack uses his maximum attack bonus" so important? At least I assume you word it like that due to house rules, since there is no reason to do so with rules by the book, since nothing allows you to use anything less than your maximum attack bonus.
No big reason my friend - I guess maximum as opposed to the divided attack idea I was presenting - as well as BAB as opposed to BAB plus Strength mod. + Magic Bonus + etc. And it's not important, just trying to minimize any confusion within the rule's wording.

It's also not a house rule (yet), I just worked it up yesterday thinking about this. Bored, too much coffee. I do like the idea of the fighter being able to divide up his attack bonus at a certain level, instead of just adding extra attacks. It doesn't seem over-powered, but would provide the player a cool option.

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Treebore »

Ieuane wrote:
Treebore wrote:What else do you have in your house rules that makes saying "This attack uses his maximum attack bonus" so important? At least I assume you word it like that due to house rules, since there is no reason to do so with rules by the book, since nothing allows you to use anything less than your maximum attack bonus.
No big reason my friend - I guess maximum as opposed to the divided attack idea I was presenting - as well as BAB as opposed to BAB plus Strength mod. + Magic Bonus + etc. And it's not important, just trying to minimize any confusion within the rule's wording.

It's also not a house rule (yet), I just worked it up yesterday thinking about this. Bored, too much coffee. I do like the idea of the fighter being able to divide up his attack bonus at a certain level, instead of just adding extra attacks. It doesn't seem over-powered, but would provide the player a cool option.

Yeah, I was wondering if you adapted that from 3E, because in 3E you could take points off your BtH and add to damage, AC too, I think, so I was wondering if you had done something along those lines.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Lurker »

Treebore wrote: Do you by chance remember which issue it was? I bought the compilations, so can definitely find it, but if you know the precise issue, it would go faster than reading through the first 6 to 8 issues to find it.

Tree, sorry. All my game books are still in storage down in FL, so I can't look it up for you ... For some reason, I think it was in the teens, so it might not be in the first 8ish, but I could be off on that ...
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Treebore »

Lurker wrote:
Treebore wrote: Do you by chance remember which issue it was? I bought the compilations, so can definitely find it, but if you know the precise issue, it would go faster than reading through the first 6 to 8 issues to find it.

Tree, sorry. All my game books are still in storage down in FL, so I can't look it up for you ... For some reason, I think it was in the teens, so it might not be in the first 8ish, but I could be off on that ...
Bummer. Hopefully the article stands out in the ToC.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Lurker »

Treebore wrote:
Lurker wrote:
Treebore wrote: Do you by chance remember which issue it was? I bought the compilations, so can definitely find it, but if you know the precise issue, it would go faster than reading through the first 6 to 8 issues to find it.

Tree, sorry. All my game books are still in storage down in FL, so I can't look it up for you ... For some reason, I think it was in the teens, so it might not be in the first 8ish, but I could be off on that ...
Bummer. Hopefully the article stands out in the ToC.

If I remember right, it was titles something like "Fighting with style" or something similiar to that. Hope it helps you find it
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Ronin77 »

I don't see anything wrong with the fighter. Working fine so far in my games. Although I have toyed with adding a "fighting style".

Aggressive: Fighters can apply up to his full Dex AC bonus to an attack rolls (max 3). No longer gets Dex adj to AC for rest of round.

Balanced: As normal.

Defensive: Fighters can apply up to 1/2 of their attack bonus rounded up- Max 3) to AC bonus. has to use adjusted attack bonus for rest of round.

For example a 4th lv fighter with Dex adj +2, Attack +2. could trade +2 to hit for a -2 AC to fight aggressively. or +1 AC for a -2 to hit for fighting Defensively.

Or some such.....
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by csperkins1970 »

I give fighters the ability to use Combat Dominance against all foes with hit dice or levels equal to or less than 1/2 those of the fighter. As such, a 4th level fighter could use the ability against all foes with 2 or less hit dice.
I also give them a +2 to make and resist disarm attempts, and a +1 to hit in all situations when they have tactical advantage (attacking from the flank or rear, attacking from higher ground, attacking a prone, surprised, stunned or blind opponent, etc).
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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Treebore »

csperkins1970 wrote:I give fighters the ability to use Combat Dominance against all foes with hit dice or levels equal to or less than 1/2 those of the fighter. As such, a 4th level fighter could use the ability against all foes with 2 or less hit dice.
I also give them a +2 to make and resist disarm attempts, and a +1 to hit in all situations when they have tactical advantage (attacking from the flank or rear, attacking from higher ground, attacking a prone, surprised, stunned or blind opponent, etc).

Hmmmm... "...a +2 to make and resist disarm attempts, and a +1 to hit in all situations when they have tactical advantage..."

I like those. Simple, yet significant.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: The Fighter...

Post by Ieuane »

csperkins1970 wrote:I give fighters the ability to use Combat Dominance against all foes with hit dice or levels equal to or less than 1/2 those of the fighter. As such, a 4th level fighter could use the ability against all foes with 2 or less hit dice.
I also give them a +2 to make and resist disarm attempts, and a +1 to hit in all situations when they have tactical advantage (attacking from the flank or rear, attacking from higher ground, attacking a prone, surprised, stunned or blind opponent, etc).
Sounds like... the PF Improved Disarm.
"Benefit: You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a disarm combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to disarm a foe. You also receive a +2 bonus to your Combat Maneuver Defense whenever an opponent tries to disarm you."

The other mods are in the PHB. Everyone receives a +1 Flank, +2 Rear, and other situational mods - p.131. Do you limit these to the fighter class?

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