How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
For those of you who have read Slag Heap, you'll be familiar with Kreetkruk, the orge in Dreddstun.
His write up (on page 12) reads:
"He carries both a ball and chain as well as a large club into combat. He uses the club to knock opponents down and follows up with a swing of the ball and chain for 2d8 damage."
So, how would you guys run this?
Is he supposed to have two attacks per round, one using the club and the other to swing the ball and chain?
Is the club supposed to do any damage, or just knock opponents prone (which would give him a bonus to hit with the ball and chain)?
Is he supposed to be subject to the rules for dual wielding?
If the club does not damage (just knocling prone) can he forgoe knocking oppnents prone with the club to just take two attacks?
Obviously, there's probably not a "wrong" answer to this, as long as one reflects the XP reward properly, but just curious to what you guys think when you read that, or how some of you who may have run Slag Heap, ran it.
Thanks!
His write up (on page 12) reads:
"He carries both a ball and chain as well as a large club into combat. He uses the club to knock opponents down and follows up with a swing of the ball and chain for 2d8 damage."
So, how would you guys run this?
Is he supposed to have two attacks per round, one using the club and the other to swing the ball and chain?
Is the club supposed to do any damage, or just knock opponents prone (which would give him a bonus to hit with the ball and chain)?
Is he supposed to be subject to the rules for dual wielding?
If the club does not damage (just knocling prone) can he forgoe knocking oppnents prone with the club to just take two attacks?
Obviously, there's probably not a "wrong" answer to this, as long as one reflects the XP reward properly, but just curious to what you guys think when you read that, or how some of you who may have run Slag Heap, ran it.
Thanks!
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Just apply the rules as written for dual wielding. Baseball bats (clubs) break bones, smash skulls and damage internal organs...
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Looks like he should have a chance to knock the opponent prone with a successful hit with the club. Perhaps the character hit must make a STR Check to stay on his feet.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
The words 'very carefully' spring to mind. But anyhow...How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
I'd use both club damage and the other weapon damage. And I would lessen the off hand penalties wit the # of HD of the creature.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Thanks for the inital replies here gang. I'm thinking, based on the info they gave me in the module (as I posted) I'll do the following (bear with me on reading this, as I'm breaking it down according to my reasoning, instead of just saying "I'm doing this")....
First, he's an ogre. Ogre's do not normally have two attacks per round. So, I can just give him two, and increase the XP, or I can apply the rules for two-weapon fighting. In this case, I will apply the rules for two weapon fighting, however, I am going to apply the advantage "Two Weapon Expert" from the CKG (-1 primary, -4 off-hand) since this is apparently how this ogre fights.
Now, Two Weapon Expert states the off hand weapon "must be light". Since the description of the ogre specifically states he carries a "large club", I am simply going to ignore this rule. He's a freaking ogre, he can swing two large weapons if he wants, HOWEVER......
Since Kreetkruks descritpion states he has a +1 to hit and damage (likey from STR) I will only apply the +1 bonus to the "primary weapon" (ball and chain), since his off hand weapon is not light (so effectively, his attack bonus will be a 0 primary, -4 secondary, but I will still apply the +1 bonus to damage, just cuz he's an ogre ;o) ). Also, Two-Weapon Exert allows you to switch back and forth use the offhand weapon to add +1 to your AC. I will simply not use this for the ogre (either because the off-hand weapon is not light, or just because his an ogre, take your pick, heh, heh)
Last, for the prone question, I am going to treat it as a "Push Maneuver" (p.256, CKG). The attack will be at a -2 to hit, but on a succesful hit, instead of making a Strength check to avoid being pushed back, it will be a Dexterity check to avoid being knocked prone (no damage on this attack, it's a sweeping motion meant to take the targets legs out from under him, not bash his kneecaps). According the Situational Combat Modifiers table (p. 131, PHB), a prone target grants a +5 to the attacker (thus were the real danger of the ball and chain attack would come in as the Ogre follows up with his "primary" weapon).
Additionally, if I want to just have the ogre take two attacks, and ignore the prone thing, I can just do so (but I'm trying to retain the flavor of how the module writers presented him).
First, he's an ogre. Ogre's do not normally have two attacks per round. So, I can just give him two, and increase the XP, or I can apply the rules for two-weapon fighting. In this case, I will apply the rules for two weapon fighting, however, I am going to apply the advantage "Two Weapon Expert" from the CKG (-1 primary, -4 off-hand) since this is apparently how this ogre fights.
Now, Two Weapon Expert states the off hand weapon "must be light". Since the description of the ogre specifically states he carries a "large club", I am simply going to ignore this rule. He's a freaking ogre, he can swing two large weapons if he wants, HOWEVER......
Since Kreetkruks descritpion states he has a +1 to hit and damage (likey from STR) I will only apply the +1 bonus to the "primary weapon" (ball and chain), since his off hand weapon is not light (so effectively, his attack bonus will be a 0 primary, -4 secondary, but I will still apply the +1 bonus to damage, just cuz he's an ogre ;o) ). Also, Two-Weapon Exert allows you to switch back and forth use the offhand weapon to add +1 to your AC. I will simply not use this for the ogre (either because the off-hand weapon is not light, or just because his an ogre, take your pick, heh, heh)
Last, for the prone question, I am going to treat it as a "Push Maneuver" (p.256, CKG). The attack will be at a -2 to hit, but on a succesful hit, instead of making a Strength check to avoid being pushed back, it will be a Dexterity check to avoid being knocked prone (no damage on this attack, it's a sweeping motion meant to take the targets legs out from under him, not bash his kneecaps). According the Situational Combat Modifiers table (p. 131, PHB), a prone target grants a +5 to the attacker (thus were the real danger of the ball and chain attack would come in as the Ogre follows up with his "primary" weapon).
Additionally, if I want to just have the ogre take two attacks, and ignore the prone thing, I can just do so (but I'm trying to retain the flavor of how the module writers presented him).
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Since he's wielding two weapons (one in each hand, I assume) I'd have him roll under his DX (or use the Siege Engine method) to use them properly. Each turn. And if he fumbles, he clocks Ooglz and a random Red Cap. The Red Cap will then be unable to chauffeur anyone or take their luggage at the airport.
And since, according to his description is every printing of Slag Heap (and I have every printing) this ogre HAS NO dexterity, he fumbles every turn.
Unless I can think of something funnier. Like Kreetkrut falling on a random PC.
And since, according to his description is every printing of Slag Heap (and I have every printing) this ogre HAS NO dexterity, he fumbles every turn.
Unless I can think of something funnier. Like Kreetkrut falling on a random PC.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Here is the "final product", short version...
Kreetkruk
HD 5d10, HP 32, AC 15.
Primary Attribute (P) +1 attack and damage
Two Weapon Expert: modifiers included in attack values
Secondary Weapon Club +0 attack, no damage, hit and target must save vs prone.
Primary Weapon Ball and Chain, +5 attack (+10 vs Prone) 2d8+1 damage
Alternativley, KreetKruk can simply make two attacks at one or two differnet tagets. If he attacks like this (-1 primary, -4 off-hand).
Primary Weapon Ball and Chain, +5 attack 2d8+1 damage
Secondary Weapon Club +2 attack, 1d8+1 damage
Kreetkruk
HD 5d10, HP 32, AC 15.
Primary Attribute (P) +1 attack and damage
Two Weapon Expert: modifiers included in attack values
Secondary Weapon Club +0 attack, no damage, hit and target must save vs prone.
Primary Weapon Ball and Chain, +5 attack (+10 vs Prone) 2d8+1 damage
Alternativley, KreetKruk can simply make two attacks at one or two differnet tagets. If he attacks like this (-1 primary, -4 off-hand).
Primary Weapon Ball and Chain, +5 attack 2d8+1 damage
Secondary Weapon Club +2 attack, 1d8+1 damage
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
This could be fun as well.MormonYoYoMan wrote:Since he's wielding two weapons (one in each hand, I assume) I'd have him roll under his DX (or use the Siege Engine method) to use them properly. Each turn. And if he fumbles, he clocks Ooglz and a random Red Cap. The Red Cap will then be unable to chauffeur anyone or take their luggage at the airport.
And since, according to his description is every printing of Slag Heap (and I have every printing) this ogre HAS NO dexterity, he fumbles every turn.
Unless I can think of something funnier. Like Kreetkrut falling on a random PC.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
I'd have him only make one attack per round, at a -3 (primary), with the club. If it hits, he can follow-up with a secondary attack - this one at -6 for the off-hand/secondary weapon - against the same foe that just got hit with the club. As Peter said, I'd offset the penalties with HD. So his two attack modifiers would be +3/+0 (for 5 HD, and another stated +1 to attack, for +6 total). Makes for a pretty dangerous foe, but one they PCs should be able to overcome.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
OK, I like your method as well Dynel. In fact, I may adjust mine to remove the two weapon expert. He's really pretty beastly that way. Your method basically is not taking the ogre as written "literally" (your not really addressing the "prone" part, your just attacking). Also if I am reading this correctly, your not actually giving him the follow up strike unless he hit with the first attack, is that correct?Lord Dynel wrote:I'd have him only make one attack per round, at a -3 (primary), with the club. If it hits, he can follow-up with a secondary attack - this one at -6 for the off-hand/secondary weapon - against the same foe that just got hit with the club. As Peter said, I'd offset the penalties with HD. So his two attack modifiers would be +3/+0 (for 5 HD, and another stated +1 to attack, for +6 total). Makes for a pretty dangerous foe, but one they PCs should be able to overcome.
Hmmmm...might be less complicated this way, and if I want to have him attack to knock the target prone, I can still do that as listed about (-2 to hit, save vs. Dex or prone, then his follow-up hit would still be at a +5 (vs. prone).
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Re-worked based on Lord D's suggestions:Lord Dynel wrote:I'd have him only make one attack per round, at a -3 (primary), with the club. If it hits, he can follow-up with a secondary attack - this one at -6 for the off-hand/secondary weapon - against the same foe that just got hit with the club. As Peter said, I'd offset the penalties with HD. So his two attack modifiers would be +3/+0 (for 5 HD, and another stated +1 to attack, for +6 total). Makes for a pretty dangerous foe, but one they PCs should be able to overcome.
Kreetkruk
HD 5d10, HP 32, AC 15.
Primary Attribute (P) +1 attack and damage
Attacks (modifiers for daul wielding included)
Primary Weapon Ball and Chain +3 attack, 2d8+1 damage
Secondary Weapon Heavy Club +0 attack, 1d8+1
Notes: If I am using this exactly as Dynel suggests, he will only get the secondary *IF* the primary hits.
Also, I can still take a -2 to hit to attempt to knock the target prone. I'd just switch and attack with the club first for no damage, then follow up with the ball and chain at a +5 to hit.
Finally, there is no "heavy" club in the weapons that I see, so I am just using a d8 instead of 1d6+1.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
I would treat the club attack as a trip attack (much like a disarm attack)
Other wise dual weilding ogre.
Other wise dual weilding ogre.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Thank you sir! Yes, I don't address the prone aspect, because - if I'm recalling correctly - there is no way to adjudicate this "prone" condition from an attack...except with overbearing, and I'll get to that in a second. I was simplifying it by making them both attacks. And yes, he wouldn't get the follow-up unless the first strike hits.Lobo316 wrote: OK, I like your method as well Dynel. In fact, I may adjust mine to remove the two weapon expert. He's really pretty beastly that way. Your method basically is not taking the ogre as written "literally" (your not really addressing the "prone" part, your just attacking). Also if I am reading this correctly, your not actually giving him the follow up strike unless he hit with the first attack, is that correct?
Hmmmm...might be less complicated this way, and if I want to have him attack to knock the target prone, I can still do that as listed about (-2 to hit, save vs. Dex or prone, then his follow-up hit would still be at a +5 (vs. prone).
Yet another (!) method would be to take the knocking prone into effect and make the first attack with the club an overbearing attack. I would have the ogre to attack at +3 (+5, plus the additional +1, -3 for the primary weapon) against an AC of 17 (15, plus the +2 for the PC being smaller). If successful, the PC is knocked prone, takes 1-2 points of subdual damage, and is now subject to a second attack from the ball-and-chain. Now, the ogre attacks with a +5 bonus (+5, plus the +1, -6 for the secondary attack, +5 vs. a prone target) against the prone PC against the PC's armor class. Now the PC has to use his move action to stand (an assumption of the rules) and can attack, but is kind of trapped in melee with the ogre (unless the ogre misses his attack and the PC can get away).
This is a little more complicated than my previous version, but it might be a little more accurate to the ogre's stated tactics. If you want a "quick and dirty" method, then the previous post version would be better. I can't say which one I would use - I guess it depends on my mood.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Yea, that goes back to what I said in my initial post...not thinking there wsa a "wrong" way to do it, jut make sure you compensate the PCs appropriately with XPs, etc.Lord Dynel wrote:Thank you sir! Yes, I don't address the prone aspect, because - if I'm recalling correctly - there is no way to adjudicate this "prone" condition from an attack...except with overbearing, and I'll get to that in a second. I was simplifying it by making them both attacks. And yes, he wouldn't get the follow-up unless the first strike hits.Lobo316 wrote: OK, I like your method as well Dynel. In fact, I may adjust mine to remove the two weapon expert. He's really pretty beastly that way. Your method basically is not taking the ogre as written "literally" (your not really addressing the "prone" part, your just attacking). Also if I am reading this correctly, your not actually giving him the follow up strike unless he hit with the first attack, is that correct?
Hmmmm...might be less complicated this way, and if I want to have him attack to knock the target prone, I can still do that as listed about (-2 to hit, save vs. Dex or prone, then his follow-up hit would still be at a +5 (vs. prone).
Yet another (!) method would be to take the knocking prone into effect and make the first attack with the club an overbearing attack. I would have the ogre to attack at +3 (+5, plus the additional +1, -3 for the primary weapon) against an AC of 17 (15, plus the +2 for the PC being smaller). If successful, the PC is knocked prone, takes 1-2 points of subdual damage, and is now subject to a second attack from the ball-and-chain. Now, the ogre attacks with a +5 bonus (+5, plus the +1, -6 for the secondary attack, +5 vs. a prone target) against the prone PC against the PC's armor class. Now the PC has to use his move action to stand (an assumption of the rules) and can attack, but is kind of trapped in melee with the ogre (unless the ogre misses his attack and the PC can get away).
This is a little more complicated than my previous version, but it might be a little more accurate to the ogre's stated tactics. If you want a "quick and dirty" method, then the previous post version would be better. I can't say which one I would use - I guess it depends on my mood.
I think I'm going to your a bit more of your suggestions then my initial write up. And I did not even think about the size difference on a overbearing attack.
Of courese, I was saying a "modified push", your mention overbear, but in the end, Deadhorse may be the most on target with a "trip" attack, lol.
Thanks Gang!
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
I would treat the club as having the same effects as the stunning attack ability of the monk class, though with a duration of 1d2 rounds instead of 1d4, usable at will, due to the ferocious wrath and strength with which it is wielded. He would, therefore, need to hit with it and then the opponent fail a Constitution save; however, failure on the Con save would result in being unable to defend oneself, thereby causing the follow-through to be automatic (and ignoring the rules for off-hand attacks) damage. I would not allow these two to be separated, as I would imagine the ogre attacks in a specific manner, like perhaps a dervish or a Rajput might, nor can the club be used twice in one round. If he loses either weapon (perhaps on a critical fumble or being disarmed in some fashion), he can use the remaining weapon normally; if that is the club, I would say it did 1d8+5 damage.
To face against him, I would suggest someone use a whip and disarm / entangle the fellow.
To face against him, I would suggest someone use a whip and disarm / entangle the fellow.
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Were are you getting the +5 damage from? Out of curiosity. The write up gives him a +1 damage (in the module) but even I was thinking, that seemed pretty whimpy for an ogre.serleran wrote:I would treat the club as having the same effects as the stunning attack ability of the monk class, though with a duration of 1d2 rounds instead of 1d4, usable at will, due to the ferocious wrath and strength with which it is wielded. He would, therefore, need to hit with it and then the opponent fail a Constitution save; however, failure on the Con save would result in being unable to defend oneself, thereby causing the follow-through to be automatic (and ignoring the rules for off-hand attacks) damage. I would not allow these two to be separated, as I would imagine the ogre attacks in a specific manner, like perhaps a dervish or a Rajput might, nor can the club be used twice in one round. If he loses either weapon (perhaps on a critical fumble or being disarmed in some fashion), he can use the remaining weapon normally; if that is the club, I would say it did 1d8+5 damage.
To face against him, I would suggest someone use a whip and disarm / entangle the fellow.
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Now that I think about it, I looked at the ogre writeup in the 3rd printer, M&T and he has no listed bonuse to damage due to STR? Why is that? I can understand leaving a lot up the CK, but I would think bonus damage for an ogre would be a forgone conclusion. I have not looked at other brutes to compare (minotuars, giants, etc), but is the CK supposed to use the "giant strength" card (inside cover of the new CK screen) and assign that himself?serleran wrote:I would treat the club as having the same effects as the stunning attack ability of the monk class, though with a duration of 1d2 rounds instead of 1d4, usable at will, due to the ferocious wrath and strength with which it is wielded. He would, therefore, need to hit with it and then the opponent fail a Constitution save; however, failure on the Con save would result in being unable to defend oneself, thereby causing the follow-through to be automatic (and ignoring the rules for off-hand attacks) damage. I would not allow these two to be separated, as I would imagine the ogre attacks in a specific manner, like perhaps a dervish or a Rajput might, nor can the club be used twice in one round. If he loses either weapon (perhaps on a critical fumble or being disarmed in some fashion), he can use the remaining weapon normally; if that is the club, I would say it did 1d8+5 damage.
To face against him, I would suggest someone use a whip and disarm / entangle the fellow.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
The bonuses to damage based on what the Ogre might have as a STR is already addressed in the dice of damage, and/or # of attacks that the monster can make. Remember, monsters are not created under the same set of rules as PCs are. So assumptions based on bonus damage due to perceived STR cannot be made as a comparison to PCs.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Originally, many creatures did have a damage bonus, but some were changed to multiple dice instead, to provide the same assumed average of their Original counterparts, the assumption being that having numerous "+ this" to remember was harder than a flat die value... like 2d6 is easier than 1d4+4 or whatever.
As for why the +5.... +3 is Strength assumption, +1 for the listed from the module, and the last +1 is from a house rule that I use giving a one-handed weapon a bonus when used two-handed.
As for why the +5.... +3 is Strength assumption, +1 for the listed from the module, and the last +1 is from a house rule that I use giving a one-handed weapon a bonus when used two-handed.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
As far as an ogre's damage due to strength goes, you could always use their # of HD as a damage modifier.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
I know an overbearing attack might seem like a stretch. I used it because of its definition as an attack "used to knock an opponent down." It would seem the ogre is using brute force to knock a PC down, tehn beat him further with the ball-and-chain.Lobo316 wrote:Of courese, I was saying a "modified push", your mention overbear, but in the end, Deadhorse may be the most on target with a "trip" attack, lol.
A trip works fine, too, though there are no rules in the PHB for it...you'll have to reference a monster in M&T that has the special ability and use that. Using the trip "rules" in M&T, you could go back to attacking with the club first, and then have the PC make a dex save. If it fails, then the ogre could get a second attack with the ball-and-chain, with the standard two-weapon penalties as described before. All told, and no offense to Dead Horse, but I'd probably use the overbear attack, were it me. I just like the flow of it better, and the rule works pretty good. However, I don't think anyone could go wrong using any of the options presented here.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Keep it simple.
DC for trip attack creatures HD/Level
DC for trip attack creatures HD/Level
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
I guss that makes sense considering the damage is 2d8 for the ball and chain. The damage potential is a tad higher, not to menton the +1.Omote wrote:The bonuses to damage based on what the Ogre might have as a STR is already addressed in the dice of damage, and/or # of attacks that the monster can make. Remember, monsters are not created under the same set of rules as PCs are. So assumptions based on bonus damage due to perceived STR cannot be made as a comparison to PCs.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
OK, editing this post...changing my comments. Odd there are are not actual rules for Tripping, but I supposed overbear works just as well. I like the fact that the size difference comes into play as well. Thinking I am going this route.Lord Dynel wrote:I know an overbearing attack might seem like a stretch. I used it because of its definition as an attack "used to knock an opponent down." It would seem the ogre is using brute force to knock a PC down, tehn beat him further with the ball-and-chain.Lobo316 wrote:Of courese, I was saying a "modified push", your mention overbear, but in the end, Deadhorse may be the most on target with a "trip" attack, lol.
A trip works fine, too, though there are no rules in the PHB for it...you'll have to reference a monster in M&T that has the special ability and use that. Using the trip "rules" in M&T, you could go back to attacking with the club first, and then have the PC make a dex save. If it fails, then the ogre could get a second attack with the ball-and-chain, with the standard two-weapon penalties as described before. All told, and no offense to Dead Horse, but I'd probably use the overbear attack, were it me. I just like the flow of it better, and the rule works pretty good. However, I don't think anyone could go wrong using any of the options presented here.
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
You know, thinking on this further, can you even do an "overbear" attack and a normal attack, just cuz your wielding two weapons? Or wouldn't the overbear be your "action" for the turn (thinking bigger picture here, how this would apply to the players if they decided to try this maneuver).
Starting to think Deadhorse might be right on...keep it simple. DC for a trip attack. Since there is no "trip" attack in the rules, this truely is just a capability of this particular monster.
Starting to think Deadhorse might be right on...keep it simple. DC for a trip attack. Since there is no "trip" attack in the rules, this truely is just a capability of this particular monster.
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
In this case "overbear" is just describing the result because the weapon and wielder and much larger than the opponent. An Ogre probably weights ~600 lbs. So, maybe let a player try it on someone who weighs ~20-30 lbs...Lobo316 wrote:You know, thinking on this further, can you even do an "overbear" attack and a normal attack, just cuz your wielding two weapons? Or wouldn't the overbear be your "action" for the turn (thinking bigger picture here, how this would apply to the players if they decided to try this maneuver).
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
(This thread has been too serious for too long.)
As I recall, an ogre can use as many weapons as it has, unless overrun by ground troops - even if it loses all its treads.
As I recall, an ogre can use as many weapons as it has, unless overrun by ground troops - even if it loses all its treads.
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Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
MormonYoYoMan wrote:(This thread has been too serious for too long.)
As I recall, an ogre can use as many weapons as it has, unless overrun by ground troops - even if it loses all its treads.
LOL! YoYoman speaks the truth (too serious for too long). Thanks for the input gang, I have several different options it appears, and it's all good.
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
Actually, I do have a follow up question on this...when using something like Overbear, the rules state 1-2 damage...do you add your STR modifier to that?
Re: How would you handle this dual wielding orge?
I would, but I tend to change "overbear" to trample which does much more damage than a coin toss.