ranger prime

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Lobo316
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ranger prime

Post by Lobo316 »

Is anyone out there allowing rangers to have DEX as a prime? Reason I ask, one of my players inquired about this. I told him, if you want DEX as a prime, take it. It's not going to change the class prime of STR though. Or play a human and pick two additional primes.

His reply was bascially that he knew that, but the STR prime was bothering him. He wants a ranger that focuses on ranged attacks (thus, Dex prime).

My reply to that was...well...the same. Take is as your chose prime, but it's not going to change the rangers prime (rangers are strong because they are strong, they have to be, result of thier lifestyle and such).

If I allow the players to pick thier own primes for every class, that's basically mix-maxing. I want characters in my game, not a collection of stats.

Thoughts on this? Am I off base? And I correct?

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Arduin
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Re: ranger prime

Post by Arduin »

You are correct. They can pick two others if human or, 1 if demi-human. That is why they get to choose, customization. You are also correct to point out that if a player wants a more flexible character, play a human...
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magick3six
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Re: ranger prime

Post by magick3six »

I had the same problem with a ranger I am playing, and my CK allowed me to change the base prime to DEX from STR. My character background and idea was to be a bow using ranger, that when forced to melee dual wielded. Both of these actions use DEX and not STR. Also, the 2 main stats for all of the rangers abilities are DEX and WIS. Without being a human, there is no way to cover both if STR is your base prime as per the book.

Mine allowed it with my backstory, and it hasn't broken anything yet. Heck, with my rolling, I almost never succeed even with a prime :)

Hard to break C&C, it just works.

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Lobo316
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Re: ranger prime

Post by Lobo316 »

sajflorida wrote:I had the same problem with a ranger I am playing, and my CK allowed me to change the base prime to DEX from STR. My character background and idea was to be a bow using ranger, that when forced to melee dual wielded. Both of these actions use DEX and not STR. Also, the 2 main stats for all of the rangers abilities are DEX and WIS. Without being a human, there is no way to cover both if STR is your base prime as per the book.

Mine allowed it with my backstory, and it hasn't broken anything yet. Heck, with my rolling, I almost never succeed even with a prime :)

Hard to break C&C, it just works.
Yea, you are correct, if your not a human, it's hard to cover all the bases, but to me, that's what makes some rangers different than others. If all the rangers had primes in all the same things, they'd just all look the same after a while. I don't look at it as a limitation of the the class that they can have a prime in everything they can do, I look at it as some rangers are better than others at certain things (depending upon your primes). If you want to cover all the bases, play a human.

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Re: ranger prime

Post by Omote »

sajflorida wrote:Without being a human, there is no way to cover both if STR is your base prime as per the book.
Hmm. Seems to me that the authors made the ranger in C&C like the single, most famous ranger in all of fantasy fiction. ;)

IMO, changing the ranger's primes to DEX+WIS makes him damn good at everything. Plus, as mentioned above, rangers need to be strong. Their lifestyle demands it.

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Lobo316
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Re: ranger prime

Post by Lobo316 »

Omote wrote:
sajflorida wrote:Without being a human, there is no way to cover both if STR is your base prime as per the book.
Hmm. Seems to me that the authors made the ranger in C&C like the single, most famous ranger in all of fantasy fiction. ;)

IMO, changing the ranger's primes to DEX+WIS makes him damn good at everything. Plus, as mentioned above, rangers need to be strong. Their lifestyle demands it.

~O
Exactly, which is why the term "min-maxing" comes to mind. I love this particular player for the RP he brings to the table, but this just smacks of min-maxing to me. It's not enjoying the character for what he "can" do, it's *itching about what he "can't do".

No character should be able to do everything. Well said Omote.

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Re: ranger prime

Post by Just Jeff »

When I first showed up here I asked about letting a fighter have dex as the class prime instead of strength. It was just part of a thought experiment on transferring an old AD&D character to C&C, and I was curious how many CKs would allow it. I don't recall any naysayers.

If it fits the character and your group is good with the change, sounds like plan. But if you're really opposed to it, sounds like a bad plan.
Lobo316 wrote:Hmm. Seems to me that the authors made the ranger in C&C like the single, most famous ranger in all of fantasy fiction. ;)
I must fling the dwarf, but fortunately my strength is prime.

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Lobo316
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Re: ranger prime

Post by Lobo316 »

Just Jeff wrote:When I first showed up here I asked about letting a fighter have dex as the class prime instead of strength. It was just part of a thought experiment on transferring an old AD&D character to C&C, and I was curious how many CKs would allow it. I don't recall any naysayers.

If it fits the character and your group is good with the change, sounds like plan. But if you're really opposed to it, sounds like a bad plan.
Lobo316 wrote:Hmm. Seems to me that the authors made the ranger in C&C like the single, most famous ranger in all of fantasy fiction. ;)
I must fling the dwarf, but fortunately my strength is prime.
Heh, that is funny, but I did not quote that...that was Omote. And that was a brilliant quote!!! Hee, hee!

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Re: ranger prime

Post by gideon_thorne »

The classes were given their fixed primes as a means of enforcing a standard archetype. That being said, there is absolutely no reason the prime has to be fixed to a given class specification. This came up even back in the days of the initial game development. If you want to have a more canny fighter, unfix their prime from Strength and put it in Dex, Int or Wis. And then choose other primes accordingly. It has no measurable effect that anyone was able to determine save you've got what amounts to a new class.

Same with Ranger. Some folks thought Con or Wis a better place for a ranger prime. They tend to be something of an intuitive fighter which relies on instinct. So Wis would be a logical choice. Dex is also a good choice depending on environment. For example, if your ranger swings about in tree's a lot.

Unhook the primes, stick em anywhere you want. It makes for some interesting possibilities for varied class types. :)
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Re: ranger prime

Post by Omote »

gideon_thorne wrote:Unhook the primes, stick em anywhere you want. It makes for some interesting possibilities for varied class types. :)
Sounds like a fantastic article for The Crusader; Unhooking the Primes. Get to writing. ;)

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Re: ranger prime

Post by gideon_thorne »

Omote wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:Unhook the primes, stick em anywhere you want. It makes for some interesting possibilities for varied class types. :)
Sounds like a fantastic article for The Crusader; Unhooking the Primes. Get to writing. ;)

~O
Just do a search on my inane prattle on these forums. You'll find I already posted something of the sort a few years back. :)
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Re: ranger prime

Post by csperkins1970 »

I'd let him swap the class-based prime from STR to CON... to reflect the endurance and toughness needed to live in the wilds, endure the elements and be on near-constant patrol.

His other primes would then be WIS & DEX.

To be honest, if he is a friend and a good roleplayer, I'd let him swap STR for any other attribute... so long as he gave a good reason for it.
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Re: ranger prime

Post by serleran »

If you change the Ranger Prime from Strength to something else, reduce the HD type, or in the case of going to Con, increase it to d12. These things are supposed to be linked together... so, if you want a Wisdom-Prime Ranger, they get d8 HD. Dex-based gets d6. Once the focus shifts off their archetype, something has to compensate.

Or at least, that would be an option.

Me, I don't even use the classes any longer but ask the players "what can your character do?" and then make a class for them.

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Lobo316
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Re: ranger prime

Post by Lobo316 »

Thanks for the replies all. I think I am going to stick with what's in the book. It's not like any player can't select DEX as a prime (and again, humans can select 2, or heck, if playing with Advantages, you can use half-elf, human lineage and select a 3rd prime).

Anyhow, I just don't want to mess with the core classes in that way. Heck, we've never actually run a game yet. Been waiting for the current DM to finish his run of D&D and this Sunday is going to be our first C&C game. I don't want to make a change that "impacting" without even having run the game before.

I am really looking forward to Sunday though, should be fun.

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Re: ranger prime

Post by Lord Dynel »

gideon_thorne wrote:Just do a search on my inane prattle on these forums. You'll find I already posted something of the sort a few years back. :)
Exactly. I've seen, and contributed to it, many times. :)

Lobo, do what makes you happy. I initially had issue with the ranger because non-humans, with their two primes, could easily get hosed on some of their class abilities. So I, at one point, set up a house rule where every class had to have one of two listed primesthat I listed out (it's somewhere on these forums). The fighter could choose between strength and constitution, the rogue between dexterity and intelligence, the paladin between charisma and wisdom for example. The ranger could pick between dexterity and wisdom. One of a character's primes had to be one of these.

I scrapped it, but not because I didn't like it...more like I wanted to try without it, first. I think it would work just fine, and it would add an interesting variety but still keep the base flavor of the class intact. I'll probably put it back in, in the future.
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Re: ranger prime

Post by BudaZoa »

This game allows for you to roleplay through almost all situations.

I think as a CK, if you let one person change the class prime, all will. I rolled up an elven ranger and because of my choices, Dex was not a prime. I still had GREAT bonus' to strike an opponent with my bow, but doin crazy called shots and special shots which required a siege roll made me inferior to someone who may have rolled up a human or a fighter type. Guess what, that's the choices we make. I still had a great time playing off my ranger.


It's not about stats, it's about getting into your character.

One of my players who I have been gaming with for over 20 years now rolls up shop keeper scores most of the time and still is one of the deadliest players that I have ever come across in rpg.

While on the other hand, there were Muppets at my old college that still think stats are everything and abilities are a way to break the system. Another reason he and like minded players generally wind up going through the most characters during a campaign (modern day players who grew up playin with 3.5 where its easy to become a munchkin at earlier levels.)



But in the end. its all about having fun, if this makes ya players happy and you are Ok with it, roll with it. Despite what anyone can tell you, all the rpg books ever created are nothing more than guidelines
I'd rather be hated for who I am

Than loved for who I am not.

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