Info on Alignment
Info on Alignment
I'm looking for good sources/articles regarding the topic of "alignment". I'm a RPG newbie forming a group with other newbies and I'd like to have a firm understanding of the subject. I think it's not covered in any detail in the C&C Players Handbook. Can someone one point me to thorough treatises?
Thanks!
Thanks!
Re: Info on Alignment
Here is my take on Alignment:
You are an innocent bystander. You see a young boy, maybe 10, run from a bakery with a loaf of bread. Seconds later, you see the baker come out, obviously looking for the kid that apparently stole some bread. You know the direction the kid ran and can in fact still see him.
Lawful Good: Stop the kid, but plead with the baker not to punish the kid to harshly. Ask if the lad can work off the theft or offer to pay for the bread yourself.
Lawful Neutral: Apprehend the young ruffian and return him to the baker.
Lawful Evil: Follow the child home and inform him you will turn him over to the baker unless he performs some thievery for you.
Neutral Good: Shrug your shoulders at the baker, make the "I don't know" face and smile.
True Neutral: What kid?
Neutral Evil: Follow the kid, see where he lives. Return to the baker and tell him you'll turn over the kid's whereabouts for some money. Then tell the kid you'll keep your mouth shut for some money. Lie to both but keep the money.
Chaotic Good: Tell the baker the kid went north... when he actually went south.
Chaotic Neutral: Go buy some bread then make fun of the baker because some little kid stole from him.
Chaotic Evil: Go in the bakery, kill the baker. Eat some free bread. Urinate in the batter. Draw symbols with the baker's blood. Sleep under the baker's dead body and pretend you have super powers.
You are an innocent bystander. You see a young boy, maybe 10, run from a bakery with a loaf of bread. Seconds later, you see the baker come out, obviously looking for the kid that apparently stole some bread. You know the direction the kid ran and can in fact still see him.
Lawful Good: Stop the kid, but plead with the baker not to punish the kid to harshly. Ask if the lad can work off the theft or offer to pay for the bread yourself.
Lawful Neutral: Apprehend the young ruffian and return him to the baker.
Lawful Evil: Follow the child home and inform him you will turn him over to the baker unless he performs some thievery for you.
Neutral Good: Shrug your shoulders at the baker, make the "I don't know" face and smile.
True Neutral: What kid?
Neutral Evil: Follow the kid, see where he lives. Return to the baker and tell him you'll turn over the kid's whereabouts for some money. Then tell the kid you'll keep your mouth shut for some money. Lie to both but keep the money.
Chaotic Good: Tell the baker the kid went north... when he actually went south.
Chaotic Neutral: Go buy some bread then make fun of the baker because some little kid stole from him.
Chaotic Evil: Go in the bakery, kill the baker. Eat some free bread. Urinate in the batter. Draw symbols with the baker's blood. Sleep under the baker's dead body and pretend you have super powers.
- mgtremaine
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Re: Info on Alignment
I'm so glad I've been running this correctlyAGNKim wrote: Chaotic Evil: Go in the bakery, kill the baker. Eat some free bread. Urinate in the batter. Draw symbols with the baker's blood. Sleep under the baker's dead body and pretend you have super powers.
-Mike
Re: Info on Alignment
^^that was funny!!!!
But in all seriousness, if you can get ahold of a pdf or deadtree version of the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (page 23), or the d20 v3.5 Player's Handbook (page 103), that gives you a real good idea of what each alignment stands for.
Otherwise, look here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm
But in all seriousness, if you can get ahold of a pdf or deadtree version of the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide (page 23), or the d20 v3.5 Player's Handbook (page 103), that gives you a real good idea of what each alignment stands for.
Otherwise, look here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm
Re: Info on Alignment
Also, keep in mind that Alignment should be just a part of the actual development and play of the character. Use Alignment as the general outlook the character (player or non-player), not specifically a hard line, unless there is cause, such as a Paladin or in some cases a Cleric. Even with those two there is some "wiggle room", though much less with the Paladin. For the Cleric, it is much more important to follow the tenets of his/her faith rather than the specific of Alignment, unless it is directly pertinent to their faith. Paladins must never knowingly and willingly commit an evil act or loose their status.
That said, there are repercussions for continuously acting outside the defined scope of your alignment. Changing of alignment can happen through the course of play, and the CK should be devious in devising penalties to impose, loss of XP (and level(s)), former friends and allies turning from that friendship or worse becoming an enemy, loss of face in the community (perhaps even being driven out of that community), and satisfaction of enemies in the fall of the hero. Perhaps the character is now hunted by former friends, or agents of their deity. Redemption is possible, returning to their former alignment with appropriate RP, grovelling, quests, etc.
Use Alignment as a part of the scene, but remember that scene elements are woven into the overall story.
That said, there are repercussions for continuously acting outside the defined scope of your alignment. Changing of alignment can happen through the course of play, and the CK should be devious in devising penalties to impose, loss of XP (and level(s)), former friends and allies turning from that friendship or worse becoming an enemy, loss of face in the community (perhaps even being driven out of that community), and satisfaction of enemies in the fall of the hero. Perhaps the character is now hunted by former friends, or agents of their deity. Redemption is possible, returning to their former alignment with appropriate RP, grovelling, quests, etc.
Use Alignment as a part of the scene, but remember that scene elements are woven into the overall story.
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- Ulthal
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Re: Info on Alignment
My take on Kim's take
You are an uninterested bystander who is not performing their civic duty. You see a young rapscallion, maybe 10, run pell mell from a bakery with an evil grin upon his face and loaf of bread under his arm. Seconds later, you see the meaty, sweaty, jiggling baker charge out the same door with a cleaver in one hand and a rolling pin in another, obviously looking for the kid (or an apple tart) that apparently stole some bread and a cake. You know the direction the kid ran and can in fact still see him.
Lawful Good: Stop the kid,, stomp his head, drag him to the magistrate, insure his hand is cut off, then forgive the kid his transgression and send him home with some gold. Beat the baker over the head for not giving a starving kid some food, take some bread, pay for it and tell the baker to exercise his goodness by tithing 20% of his income to you or he will suffer the divine wrath of goodness. Gloat in your goodness until some vagrant throws a water soaked corn cob at you and puts your eye out.
Lawful Neutral: Go to the local constabulary and explain to them what you witnessed. Demand a reward for capturing the kid. Capture the kid and wash your hands of the whole affair. Then go to tavern and get a room. Complain to the local authorities about local vice laws. Explain why getting rid of them will be good for society. Watch while everyone else enjoys their life while disobeying pointless vice laws but do not partake. Die lonely and unfulfilled.
Lawful Evil: Follow the child home, kidnap the kid. Tell the baker that for some gold you will turn over the kid to the constabulary. Tell the constabulary you want a reward for capturing a vile thief. Find some random kid and kidnap him. Turn this kid over to the constabulary, tell the real thief he is your employee and unless he obeys you, he gets turned over to the constabulary. Cheat on your taxes but still file.
Neutral Good: Pay for the stolen bread, give the kid some gold, buy some more bread, hire the kid. Later as you sit poor and hungry on the side of the street you wonder why the kid stole all you money and the baker won't give you some food during your hard times.
True Neutral: Stare with a blank face at your surroundings and try to decide what to do. Keep staring. Get thirsty, keep staring, die of dehydration.
Neutral Evil: Pick the pocket of the dude nearest you. Wait until the baker is out of site and steal some bread. Tell the baker the kid stole a lot. Tell him for a reward you will capture the kid. when the baker agrees, take the money, kill the baker and leave. Find the kid. Steal everything of value from his family and burn down the house. The kid stabs you in the heart later on life.
Chaotic Good: Tell the baker the kid is starving and needs the food. Convince him to give away some bread to homeless kids. Set up an orphanage. Spend all your money on the kids. Leave to go get a job as you are peniless. Forgive the baker for not hiring you. Take a job as a street cleaner. Be so good at your job you never get promoted. Thank your thankless boss for keeping you in his employ. die hungry in a pile of trash.
Chaotic Neutral: Watch the sun set. Build a fire in the middle of the street. Steal some food. Buy a beer.Tell the baker you won't bsteal his food if he gives it to you. Skip down the street and act like the dude in "you can Dance."
Chaotic Evil: Find your best friend, kill him. Burn down the sotre next to the bakery. Buy an apple from a nearby vendor and watch. Kidnap the kids father and hold him for ransom, read a good book, then burn it. Find the bake and congradulate him on the extension of his bakery into the next lot. Tell the baker that you will take all his proceeds for eternity or you will kill every dog in town. HAve a heart attack and die.
You are an uninterested bystander who is not performing their civic duty. You see a young rapscallion, maybe 10, run pell mell from a bakery with an evil grin upon his face and loaf of bread under his arm. Seconds later, you see the meaty, sweaty, jiggling baker charge out the same door with a cleaver in one hand and a rolling pin in another, obviously looking for the kid (or an apple tart) that apparently stole some bread and a cake. You know the direction the kid ran and can in fact still see him.
Lawful Good: Stop the kid,, stomp his head, drag him to the magistrate, insure his hand is cut off, then forgive the kid his transgression and send him home with some gold. Beat the baker over the head for not giving a starving kid some food, take some bread, pay for it and tell the baker to exercise his goodness by tithing 20% of his income to you or he will suffer the divine wrath of goodness. Gloat in your goodness until some vagrant throws a water soaked corn cob at you and puts your eye out.
Lawful Neutral: Go to the local constabulary and explain to them what you witnessed. Demand a reward for capturing the kid. Capture the kid and wash your hands of the whole affair. Then go to tavern and get a room. Complain to the local authorities about local vice laws. Explain why getting rid of them will be good for society. Watch while everyone else enjoys their life while disobeying pointless vice laws but do not partake. Die lonely and unfulfilled.
Lawful Evil: Follow the child home, kidnap the kid. Tell the baker that for some gold you will turn over the kid to the constabulary. Tell the constabulary you want a reward for capturing a vile thief. Find some random kid and kidnap him. Turn this kid over to the constabulary, tell the real thief he is your employee and unless he obeys you, he gets turned over to the constabulary. Cheat on your taxes but still file.
Neutral Good: Pay for the stolen bread, give the kid some gold, buy some more bread, hire the kid. Later as you sit poor and hungry on the side of the street you wonder why the kid stole all you money and the baker won't give you some food during your hard times.
True Neutral: Stare with a blank face at your surroundings and try to decide what to do. Keep staring. Get thirsty, keep staring, die of dehydration.
Neutral Evil: Pick the pocket of the dude nearest you. Wait until the baker is out of site and steal some bread. Tell the baker the kid stole a lot. Tell him for a reward you will capture the kid. when the baker agrees, take the money, kill the baker and leave. Find the kid. Steal everything of value from his family and burn down the house. The kid stabs you in the heart later on life.
Chaotic Good: Tell the baker the kid is starving and needs the food. Convince him to give away some bread to homeless kids. Set up an orphanage. Spend all your money on the kids. Leave to go get a job as you are peniless. Forgive the baker for not hiring you. Take a job as a street cleaner. Be so good at your job you never get promoted. Thank your thankless boss for keeping you in his employ. die hungry in a pile of trash.
Chaotic Neutral: Watch the sun set. Build a fire in the middle of the street. Steal some food. Buy a beer.Tell the baker you won't bsteal his food if he gives it to you. Skip down the street and act like the dude in "you can Dance."
Chaotic Evil: Find your best friend, kill him. Burn down the sotre next to the bakery. Buy an apple from a nearby vendor and watch. Kidnap the kids father and hold him for ransom, read a good book, then burn it. Find the bake and congradulate him on the extension of his bakery into the next lot. Tell the baker that you will take all his proceeds for eternity or you will kill every dog in town. HAve a heart attack and die.
Re: Info on Alignment
cleaverthepit wrote:My take on Kim's take...
Re: Info on Alignment
The BEST description of True Neutral I've ever seen. And people wonder why I don't allow true neutral as a character alignment....cleaverthepit wrote:True Neutral: Stare with a blank face at your surroundings and try to decide what to do. Keep staring. Get thirsty, keep staring, die of dehydration.
Re: Info on Alignment
The conception of "Alignment" in the original game seems to have been influenced by Poul Anderson's "Three Hearts and Three Lions", and the "Elric" books of Michael Moorcock. The idea was that certain beings served the cosmic forces of Law, others served the cosmic forces of Chaos, and others were Neutral between the two forces. "Alignment" in that sense wasn't a description of a person's morality, so much as a designation of which "side" they were on in the cosmic battle of forces. A "Lawful" person would probably keep his word and was generally "good", but might be perfectly capable of wholesale slaughter if that was necessary to maintain cosmic Law. Conversely, a "Chaotic" person was generally selfish and untrustworthy, but might do something truly gracious and kind every so often.
As the game evolved, "Alignment" came to be thought of more as a shorthand for a character's underlying moral and ethical code. While the original rules recognized only the three Alignments of Lawful, Chaotic and Neutral, the Advanced version added Good and Evil to the mix. So, a person could be Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, or just plain Lawful (Lawful Neutral).
By the 2nd Edition of the game, Alignment was being used almost wholly to describe a character's actions. So, a character wasn't Chaotic Evil because he was ultimately fighting for the demons (as in the older conception), but because he always performed actions that were both Chaotic and Evil. It's an important difference.
The older conception of Alignment is not a behavioral straightjacket - a Chaotic person may ultimately want Chaos to triumph, but he might still keep his word and help out the unfortunate. Ultimately, however, he's on the side against cosmic Law. In the more modern conception of Alignment, however, a Chaotic Evil character always (or almost always) acts in a deplorable way.
Personally, I prefer the idea of Alignment as a descriptor of "side" in the grand conflict of the cosmos. It defines who the character's spiritual patrons are, and where their soul is going, without determining everything they do. I am fascinated by the idea of a person who ultimately is going to Hell, but nonetheless sometimes does good things (even though his tainted soul will never be allowed into Heaven).
As the game evolved, "Alignment" came to be thought of more as a shorthand for a character's underlying moral and ethical code. While the original rules recognized only the three Alignments of Lawful, Chaotic and Neutral, the Advanced version added Good and Evil to the mix. So, a person could be Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, or just plain Lawful (Lawful Neutral).
By the 2nd Edition of the game, Alignment was being used almost wholly to describe a character's actions. So, a character wasn't Chaotic Evil because he was ultimately fighting for the demons (as in the older conception), but because he always performed actions that were both Chaotic and Evil. It's an important difference.
The older conception of Alignment is not a behavioral straightjacket - a Chaotic person may ultimately want Chaos to triumph, but he might still keep his word and help out the unfortunate. Ultimately, however, he's on the side against cosmic Law. In the more modern conception of Alignment, however, a Chaotic Evil character always (or almost always) acts in a deplorable way.
Personally, I prefer the idea of Alignment as a descriptor of "side" in the grand conflict of the cosmos. It defines who the character's spiritual patrons are, and where their soul is going, without determining everything they do. I am fascinated by the idea of a person who ultimately is going to Hell, but nonetheless sometimes does good things (even though his tainted soul will never be allowed into Heaven).
Daniel James Hanley
Creator of Ghastly Affair, "The Gothic Game of Romantic Horror".
Player's Manual Now Available on DriveThruRPG and Amazon
Reader discretion is advised.
Creator of Ghastly Affair, "The Gothic Game of Romantic Horror".
Player's Manual Now Available on DriveThruRPG and Amazon
Reader discretion is advised.
- Lord Dynel
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Re: Info on Alignment
Welcome to the Crusade, Protein!
With no disrespect to my fellow posters (as their intrepertions are excellent), here is a good take on alignments. There are additional links on that page that may, too, prove useful.
With no disrespect to my fellow posters (as their intrepertions are excellent), here is a good take on alignments. There are additional links on that page that may, too, prove useful.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.
Re: Info on Alignment
Thanks everyone for the excellent responses. All very valuable.
Tally ho!
Protein
Tally ho!
Protein
Re: Info on Alignment
That is a good page. Of course they deal with True Neutral by the book, which I would have to change. But other than that, nice and concise.Lord Dynel wrote:With no disrespect to my fellow posters (as their intrepertions are excellent), here is a good take on alignments. There are additional links on that page that may, too, prove useful.
Re: Info on Alignment
Ohhh . . yeah!!cleaverthepit wrote:Chaotic Neutral: Watch the sun set. Build a fire in the middle of the street. Steal some food. Buy a beer.Tell the baker you won't bsteal his food if he gives it to you. Skip down the street and act like the dude in "you can Dance."
And I'd be smoking a herbal remedy and have a beautiful elf lady as well as my faithful Lhasa Apso at my side!!
Lord Tadhg - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Ardmore
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"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax
"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth
- Lord Crimson
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Re: Info on Alignment
This is a much more awesome take on Alignment than all the takes before or since.clavis123 wrote:Everything clavis said
-- Lord Crimson, Champion of Darkness
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** As always, my suggestions/statements/ideas come with the caveats of YMMV and IMO.
--> StarSIEGE fan? Come to the SS:EH Wiki for trappings, ideas, and more!
** As always, my suggestions/statements/ideas come with the caveats of YMMV and IMO.
Re: Info on Alignment
Nice perspectives on the alignments.
Lord Aladar
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Warden of the Welk Wood
Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society
The Poster formerly known as Alwyn
Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour
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Re: Info on Alignment
I always thought the alignment descriptions from the Book of Erotic Fantasy explained things rather well.
Re: Info on Alignment
Thank you! One thing I like about Alignment as "side" in the "War in Heaven" is that it makes the idea of True Neutral make perfect sense. Neutrals are those who refuse to take a side, either because they don't care, or are actually opposed to the conflict itself. True Neutrals just want to live their lives. In my Campaign, True Neutral's patrons are the Fairy Folk, sometimes described in legend as originally being the "neutral angels".Lord Crimson wrote:This is a much more awesome take on Alignment than all the takes before or since.clavis123 wrote:Everything clavis said
Daniel James Hanley
Creator of Ghastly Affair, "The Gothic Game of Romantic Horror".
Player's Manual Now Available on DriveThruRPG and Amazon
Reader discretion is advised.
Creator of Ghastly Affair, "The Gothic Game of Romantic Horror".
Player's Manual Now Available on DriveThruRPG and Amazon
Reader discretion is advised.
- KaiserKris
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Re: Info on Alignment
I've been doing quite a lot of thinking about alignment, and how to present it, and I think I've come around to the idea of alignment being a more active thing. One of the things that actually made sense in 4th edition was the presenting of Unaligned as a common and benign thing. Unaligned people aren't morally unconcerned, they're just not willing to commit themselves or make large sacrifices for a relatively abstract morality. It's not unusual for unaligned people to defend their families to the death, nor even their country, but they're probably not going to do it for a stranger. True Neutral is a different thing- a true commitment to balance in the universe. Very, very few people are capable of walking such a path.
So I'm getting rid of Neutral Alignments in a sense- a Neutral Good character is simply Good. A Neutral Evil character is simply Evil, CN is just Chaotic and LN is just Lawful. These are people that have, with varying levels of knowledge of what they have got themselves into, have made a commitment to a particular ideology and worldview. There's still alignments like CE, CG, LE and LG, though. These are people that value both, say, Chaos and Goodness very highly. There's fewer people of these median alignments than the pole ones, because it's not uncommon for the ultimate aims of, say, Law and Evil to clash.
The pole alignments are patronized by one of the four great extraplanar races: The Good are represented by the Angels, the Evil by the Devils, the Lawful by the Archons and the Chaotic by the Demons. Law and Chaos preceded Good and Evil, since the latter two could only exist in a world with sentient races, though in practice, Good and Evil have become somewhat more important concerns to people, and Angels and Devils are somewhat more active in the lives of individuals. Your alignment determines your spiritual patrons, both on earth (the gods) and in the afterlife (will you go to Heaven, Hell, Utopia or the Abyss?), with the Unaligned ending up in Sheol, the common grave, where they are tempted and solicited by agents of the various basic alignments.
So I'm getting rid of Neutral Alignments in a sense- a Neutral Good character is simply Good. A Neutral Evil character is simply Evil, CN is just Chaotic and LN is just Lawful. These are people that have, with varying levels of knowledge of what they have got themselves into, have made a commitment to a particular ideology and worldview. There's still alignments like CE, CG, LE and LG, though. These are people that value both, say, Chaos and Goodness very highly. There's fewer people of these median alignments than the pole ones, because it's not uncommon for the ultimate aims of, say, Law and Evil to clash.
The pole alignments are patronized by one of the four great extraplanar races: The Good are represented by the Angels, the Evil by the Devils, the Lawful by the Archons and the Chaotic by the Demons. Law and Chaos preceded Good and Evil, since the latter two could only exist in a world with sentient races, though in practice, Good and Evil have become somewhat more important concerns to people, and Angels and Devils are somewhat more active in the lives of individuals. Your alignment determines your spiritual patrons, both on earth (the gods) and in the afterlife (will you go to Heaven, Hell, Utopia or the Abyss?), with the Unaligned ending up in Sheol, the common grave, where they are tempted and solicited by agents of the various basic alignments.
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- Dead Horse
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Re: Info on Alignment
KaiserKris,
That is probably the best revision of alinement i have ever seen!
Much more succint then any scheme i have read before.
I think your idea is so good i am going to adapt my campaign to it.
I have been trying to present a world of polarised forces.
Your system will enhance that feeling very much.
That is probably the best revision of alinement i have ever seen!
Much more succint then any scheme i have read before.
I think your idea is so good i am going to adapt my campaign to it.
I have been trying to present a world of polarised forces.
Your system will enhance that feeling very much.
Please don't beat me.
Not Worth Any Experiance Points Alive http://nwaepa.blogspot.com/
Not Worth Any Experiance Points Alive http://nwaepa.blogspot.com/