Traps

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Snoring Rock
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Traps

Post by Snoring Rock »

Ok, blame it on all those years living under the yolk of over-codification.....

Traps: So this 3rd level rogue or dastardly bad guy sets a trap in a dungeon in order to protect a treasure. The CL for the trap would be 3. For a character not trained in trap removal, it would be 18 + 3 for a total of 21 to beat with a d20 roll + any level bonus. For a rogue, it would be 12 + 3 or 15.

Does anyone just figure everything at 18 and then just give characters using primes or trained actions, a +6 rather than giving differing bases? It seems simpler to me that way. Am I missing anything there?

The same thing for doors. I dont see a chart or anything on doors in C&C. I think I like that. But lets say you have an iron door and the CK decides it is a CL of 8. For any PC attempting to open it, who has not designated strength as a prime, the base would be 18, then add the CL of 8 for a 26. If a PC who has determined that strength is a prime, the base would be 12. You then add in the CL for a total of 20. Why not just make it 26 and then give the PC's with primes a +6 on these challenges?

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Aramis
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Re: Traps

Post by Aramis »

Snoring Rock wrote:Ok, blame it on all those years living under the yolk of over-codification.....

Traps: So this 3rd level rogue or dastardly bad guy sets a trap in a dungeon in order to protect a treasure. The CL for the trap would be 3. For a character not trained in trap removal, it would be 18 + 3 for a total of 21 to beat with a d20 roll + any level bonus. For a rogue, it would be 12 + 3 or 15.
Not quite. Trap removal is a class skill of rogues. Therefore, the first thing the CK does is determine whether a player not of that class may attempt it at all. Generally, I would recommend that they not be able to remove traps with a SIEGE check. Although some might be able to detect a trap, and from that, player ingenuity might be able to set it off safely without the need for a check...or they might not set it off safely ;)

Separate from that, your example implies that the CB is 12 because a rogue is trained, and the CB is 18 for the untrained. By the book, the CB is determined by the prime, not the task. Disabling traps is an Intelligence check. Thus, bizarrely, an INT prime wizard might be better at removing traps than a trained rogue. E.g. a 1st level wizard with 18 INT prime would roll d20+3 vs CB 12+3 and a non INT prime 1st level rogue would roll d20+0+1 (he adds his level) vs CB 18+3!

And that's why the CK probably should not allow wizards to make trap removal checks. It makes those who chose rogue as a class get all backstabby. ;)

Snoring Rock wrote:Does anyone just figure everything at 18 and then just give characters using primes or trained actions, a +6 rather than giving differing bases? It seems simpler to me that way. Am I missing anything there?

The same thing for doors. I dont see a chart or anything on doors in C&C. I think I like that. But lets say you have an iron door and the CK decides it is a CL of 8. For any PC attempting to open it, who has not designated strength as a prime, the base would be 18, then add the CL of 8 for a 26. If a PC who has determined that strength is a prime, the base would be 12. You then add in the CL for a total of 20. Why not just make it 26 and then give the PC's with primes a +6 on these challenges?
Yes, some people do that. Primes give a +6 on the roll and all CBs are 18. Another option if one wishes to de-emphasise primes, is to set all CBs at 15, and give a +3 for primes. Both work.

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Snoring Rock
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Re: Traps

Post by Snoring Rock »

Ok, so the special abilities of rogues, rangers, etc., are not used with primes. I misunderstood. I certainly agree, I would never allow wizards to check for traps....well, they can look, but little chance of success. I am new to the game, so I am bound to biff it here and there. Thank you for the clarifications.

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Sir Osis of Liver
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Re: Traps

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Snoring Rock wrote:Ok, so the special abilities of rogues, rangers, etc., are not used with primes. I misunderstood. I certainly agree, I would never allow wizards to check for traps....well, they can look, but little chance of success. I am new to the game, so I am bound to biff it here and there. Thank you for the clarifications.
I allow my players to try whatever they want. If they do something that isn't a class ability, they don't get to add their level to the roll. Most of the time, the players know better than to try something like that. If, however, the party lacks a rogue, it helps if there's Mr. Clanky-pants fighter/knight/paladin type who has INT prime and is willing to give it a go. Let the guy with the best AC give it a go in lieu of a professional.

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Re: Traps

Post by Snoring Rock »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
Snoring Rock wrote:Ok, so the special abilities of rogues, rangers, etc., are not used with primes. I misunderstood. I certainly agree, I would never allow wizards to check for traps....well, they can look, but little chance of success. I am new to the game, so I am bound to biff it here and there. Thank you for the clarifications.
I allow my players to try whatever they want. If they do something that isn't a class ability, they don't get to add their level to the roll. Most of the time, the players know better than to try something like that. If, however, the party lacks a rogue, it helps if there's Mr. Clanky-pants fighter/knight/paladin type who has INT prime and is willing to give it a go. Let the guy with the best AC give it a go in lieu of a professional.
Ok, that makes good sense to me. I think I'm getting it.

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Re: Traps

Post by Go0gleplex »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote: it helps if there's Mr. Clanky-pants fighter/knight/paladin type who has INT prime and is willing to give it a go. Let the guy with the best AC give it a go in lieu of a professional.
I got this image of an armored fighter with his fingers in his ears, one eye squeezed shut, face slightly averted and pensive, tapping the floor ahead with one foot...
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Sir Osis of Liver
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Re: Traps

Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Sir Osis of Liver wrote: it helps if there's Mr. Clanky-pants fighter/knight/paladin type who has INT prime and is willing to give it a go. Let the guy with the best AC give it a go in lieu of a professional.
I got this image of an armored fighter with his fingers in his ears, one eye squeezed shut, face slightly averted and pensive, tapping the floor ahead with one foot...
:mrgreen:
That's about how my knight was in John's game he ran at GaryCon I. We didn't have a rogue until Morty showed up, so since the knight had the best AC, he got to look for traps. Luckily, I'd picked INT as one of his primes. And he rolled natural 20s on his first couple of traps. It was pretty sweet.

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Aramis
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Re: Traps

Post by Aramis »

Snoring Rock wrote:Ok, so the special abilities of rogues, rangers, etc., are not used with primes. I misunderstood. I certainly agree, I would never allow wizards to check for traps....well, they can look, but little chance of success. I am new to the game, so I am bound to biff it here and there. Thank you for the clarifications.
You're welcome. It is a good issue to get straight early because it comes up a fair bit, as you can imagine. Especially with rogue abilities.

One thing I try to keep in mind with rogue abilities is, although you may allow non-rogues to attempt some of the skills in some limited circumstances, the rogue's use of those abilities should always be broader and much more effective.

So a wizard might try to hide, and a paladin might try to listen, but a rogue gets much more out of it. His successes are more like a weak magic spell. That way, people can encroach a bit, but the rogue still has something fun from his class

Also, if you don't like the fact that multi-skilled characters are a bit pinched by the lack of primes, one option is to allow each class to treat his skills as prime, even if the stat itself is not prime. So a rogue who is not INT prime would still get a +0 from his 12 stat (whereas the trap finding wizard would get a +3 from his 18 INT) but both get to have a CB of 12, rather than the rogue facing a daunting CB of 18. This has the downside of making each rogue or ranger much more similar, since they treat all class skills as prime, but you may find it makes skill intensive characters more playable

That's the beauty of C&C, change it to suit what you prefer.

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Re: Traps

Post by Relaxo »

Does anyone just figure everything at 18 and then just give characters using primes or trained actions, a +6 rather than giving differing bases? It seems simpler to me that way. Am I missing anything there?
Not missing anything, I think that's actually a popular house rule.

Otherwise, what Aramis said.
RAW you can allow other classes to try the class abilities of other classes (exmple a Wizards Picking Pockets, or Tracking) but they do not add their level and don't succeed as well as the experts (the classes of whom it's a class ability) which takes some CK subtlety.

Move silently is a good example, the Rogue succeeding their roll is ninja silent, the Druid might scuff a shoe quietly, but but quietly enough that no one notices but them (and since you, as CK should roll that one in secret, it's a great opportunity to describe the ever-so-quiet scuff noise and ratchet up the tension in the players... he he he)

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Onirim
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Re: Traps

Post by Onirim »

I've a question about traps :)

In the 4th edition of C&C and M&T, I haven't found any rule covering the different types of traps, and no guidelines for the damages of traps by levels.

Where can I find this informations ?

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zarathustra
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Re: Traps

Post by zarathustra »

Onirim wrote:I've a question about traps :)

In the 4th edition of C&C and M&T, I haven't found any rule covering the different types of traps, and no guidelines for the damages of traps by levels.

Where can I find this informations ?
You don't need a rule, you just imagine the trap and the consequences of springing it.

The trap can be as simple as the old poison dart on a spring or as elaborate as shifting walls, water filling chambers etc.
Consequences can be physical damage (whatever you feel appropriate);

reduced ability for a time (eg.half strength- weak from poison gas or half intelligence- confused from drug powder, half dexterity from freezing cold blast etc);

certain death if no solution is found (closing walls, or water filled room);

trapped by falling grates etc.

And whatever else you imagine.

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Snoring Rock
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Re: Traps

Post by Snoring Rock »

Ok, I know I will be found guilty of rules lawyer-ing and possibly 3.x-ing this; but after a brief study I find the following:

PH page 8 there is a shaded example box toward the bottom of the right column. It uses a ranger making a track check. The prime is used (12) as the base and the attribute bonus and level are added to the d20 roll. So, when using a class skill you do use it as a prime.

PH page 125 right column, top of the page, 1st paragraph the suggestion is made to “disallow” reserved class skills from other classes. Makes sense in most cases, but then two examples are given in the shaded boxes. One is a fighter using a rogue skill out of his prime. He uses a base of 18 and the rolls d20 and gets to adds the attribute bonus, just like any other attribute check (Siege Engine) except that he does not get to use the level bonus.

The next example is of a fighter using another rogue skill but it is the character’s prime. He gets base 12 and his attribute bonus, but does not get to use level bonus, as above.

That leaves just one stone un-turned. If a class skill is not the character/class prime. Do you use base 12 or 18? At first glance, I side on allowing the characters to use base 12 for all class skills regardless of prime. But then again, if you don’t, it will give different rogues, even with the same attributes, completely different outcomes, simply by being more skilled in one area or another. This will add variety to the game and customization opportunities.

You have to love the genius, simplicity and versatility of this game.

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Re: Traps

Post by DeadReborn »

You have to love the genius, simplicity and versatility of this game.
Amen, brotha! :D
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Re: Traps

Post by Lord Crimson »

Snoring Rock wrote:PH page 8 there is a shaded example box toward the bottom of the right column. It uses a ranger making a track check. The prime is used (12) as the base and the attribute bonus and level are added to the d20 roll. So, when using a class skill you do use it as a prime.
I suspect you're missing something there. The prime is used because the attribute the Ranger is using for the roll is Prime, not because it's a class ability.

Prime means the defining Attribute is Prime and (effectively, as you pointed out) adds 6 to the roll.

Class Ability means you get to add your Level to the roll, too.
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