Illusionist healing spells

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Should Illusionist healing spells be removed from the next PHB printing?

Yes, remove illusionist healing spells
20
50%
No, keep illusionist healing spells
17
43%
Other... please add a note
3
8%
 
Total votes: 40

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Go0gleplex
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Go0gleplex »

anglefish wrote:
zarathustra wrote:If Arcane casters want healing type spells they'd have to delve into the arts of necromancy IMC (some kind of "vampiric" type healing where the strength is sapped from someone else).
Why? They could use alchemy or witchcraft or fey magics. There's other ways to justify arcane healing than Necromancy.

Personally, I have a harder time justifying a neco/healing spin than a palcebo spell.
If I remember right, vampiric touch was a necro spell that did harm to the target and healed the caster.
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by zarathustra »

anglefish wrote: Why? They could use alchemy or witchcraft or fey magics. There's other ways to justify arcane healing than Necromancy.

Personally, I have a harder time justifying a neco/healing spin than a palcebo spell.
Ah, I should have said- "the only way I'd see it happening IMC is..." I am eagerly awaiting a chance to spring Necromanc, the Black Libram of Nartarus and a few of my tweaks at my players.

Yes, Vampiric touch and similar spells sprang to mind.

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Kayolan
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Kayolan »

Call me stubborn or old-fashioned, but Illusionist healing spells are an abomination IMO. Strike these from the PHBs! :)

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anglefish
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by anglefish »

For me, I've never been a fan of the healing/religion combo.

I've always looked for a non-cleric healing substitute so we can take the gods out of the dungeon crawls and put them back in the temples where they belong. :)

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Rigon »

dunbruha wrote:I voted to remove them. I have no problem with arcane healing. I have no problem with C&C being different from D&D. I just can't accept the idea of "illusion" being real.

Illusion: (from the Free Dictionary)
1. a false appearance or deceptive impression of reality.
2. a false or misleading perception or belief; delusion.

Both of these definitions contain the word "false".

So if I were to use the 4th printing rules, I would houserule out the part where it says that illusion spells produce real objects.
So by your definition, spells like phantasmal killer would not cause damage either, because illusions are false. ;)

Seriously though, I choose the third option since I believe it is your game to make it what you want. I however, have no problem with illusionist casting cure spells, as my understanding of hit points is not just physical damage, but fitigue and mental strain. Why can't illusionist healing effect that type of damage?

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by gideon_thorne »

I see the illusionist as a charisma based magic user. Along that vein, they have extraordinary capabilities of persuasion. Its rather well documented as to the effects that persuasion can have on people. Up too, and including, healing faster. :)
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Treebore »

I can definitely see illusionists healing, they are all about the mind, and the mind is very important in real life healing. So I can definitely seeing an Illusionist convincing someones mind that they can heal, they can survive, etc... So I can see them greatly accelerating healing, where I can't get past it is that it is instantaneous. So I can see Illusionists doing things like giving a temporary ability to regenerate, purge out toxins, etc... to where it takes hours and then maybe minutes at higher levels, but not the same as clerics.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by mgtremaine »

Treebore wrote: So I can see Illusionists doing things like giving a temporary ability to regenerate, purge out toxins, etc... to where it takes hours and then maybe minutes at higher levels, but not the same as clerics.
Interesting idea. Maybe raise the casting time to also make it a turn or more. hmmm

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Dead Horse »

I will also point out, i think they should be removed from the PHB.
Not removed from the game.
Something like this strikes me as optional and belonging in the CKG.
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Go0gleplex »

Rigon wrote:
dunbruha wrote:I voted to remove them. I have no problem with arcane healing. I have no problem with C&C being different from D&D. I just can't accept the idea of "illusion" being real.

Illusion: (from the Free Dictionary)
1. a false appearance or deceptive impression of reality.
2. a false or misleading perception or belief; delusion.

Both of these definitions contain the word "false".

So if I were to use the 4th printing rules, I would houserule out the part where it says that illusion spells produce real objects.
So by your definition, spells like phantasmal killer would not cause damage either, because illusions are false. ;)

Seriously though, I choose the third option since I believe it is your game to make it what you want. I however, have no problem with illusionist casting cure spells, as my understanding of hit points is not just physical damage, but fitigue and mental strain. Why can't illusionist healing effect that type of damage?

R-
Per a long ago discussion in dragon mag, it was noted that the Phantasmal Killer spell does not do actual damage. It creates such fear that the victim literally dies from fright, a victim of their own mind (phobias). Hence the save or die status of the spell. That damage would be assigned to a successful save could be arguable as the shock to a persons system, much like narrowly avoiding being hit by a speeding bus or being grazed by a high caliber bullet, though IMO this should probably be more subdual type damage than a more physical damage.
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by dunbruha »

Go0gleplex wrote:
Rigon wrote:
dunbruha wrote:I voted to remove them. I have no problem with arcane healing. I have no problem with C&C being different from D&D. I just can't accept the idea of "illusion" being real.

Illusion: (from the Free Dictionary)
1. a false appearance or deceptive impression of reality.
2. a false or misleading perception or belief; delusion.

Both of these definitions contain the word "false".

So if I were to use the 4th printing rules, I would houserule out the part where it says that illusion spells produce real objects.
So by your definition, spells like phantasmal killer would not cause damage either, because illusions are false. ;)

Seriously though, I choose the third option since I believe it is your game to make it what you want. I however, have no problem with illusionist casting cure spells, as my understanding of hit points is not just physical damage, but fitigue and mental strain. Why can't illusionist healing effect that type of damage?

R-
Per a long ago discussion in dragon mag, it was noted that the Phantasmal Killer spell does not do actual damage. It creates such fear that the victim literally dies from fright, a victim of their own mind (phobias). Hence the save or die status of the spell. That damage would be assigned to a successful save could be arguable as the shock to a persons system, much like narrowly avoiding being hit by a speeding bus or being grazed by a high caliber bullet, though IMO this should probably be more subdual type damage than a more physical damage.
What Google said. Just because the effect isn't real, doesn't mean someone couldn't be fooled into being so scared that he has a heart attack. This is very different from "seeing" an illusionary axe cut off his foot, and the foot really gets cut off (as per the 4th printing illusion mechanism).

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Mark Hall »

I'm reminded, actually, of the Illusionist out of Earthdawn. They specifically noted that some things Illusionists did WERE real, simply so people couldn't automatically discount everything Bob did as "not real". "You spend a round disbelieving the rock. Unfortunately, it was launched from a real catapult. You are now dead."
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Philosopher »

dunbruha wrote:I voted to remove them. I have no problem with arcane healing. I have no problem with C&C being different from D&D. I just can't accept the idea of "illusion" being real.

Illusion: (from the Free Dictionary)
1. a false appearance or deceptive impression of reality.
2. a false or misleading perception or belief; delusion.

Both of these definitions contain the word "false".

So if I were to use the 4th printing rules, I would houserule out the part where it says that illusion spells produce real objects.
Personally, I have a hard time accepting that a magic guy in the sky performs miracles (including granting healing powers). But I can grant it in a fantasy world. Likewise, in a fantasy world, I can grant that a strong enough belief can alter reality. Illusionist healers work for me. They're not for all campaigns, but neither are monks or druids.

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Lord Dynel »

Since their inclusion, I've been against illusionists healing spells. In fact, I have removed these spells from the illusionst's spell list (and their replacements):

0-Level
First Aid (Silent Portal - negates sound from door or portal)

2nd-Level
Cure Light Wounds (False Life - grants 1d10 temp. HP for 1 min./level)

4th-Level
Cure Serious Wounds (Improved False Life - grants 3d10 temp HP for 1 min./level)

5th-Level
Neutralize Poison (Eyebite - caster can choose one gaze attack [charm, sicken, fear, or sleep] and can make a gaze attack against a single creature. Lasts 1 round/3 levels of caster.)

6th-Level
Cure Critical Wounds (Greater False Life - grants 5d10 temp. HP for 1 min./level)

7th-level
Restoration (Illusory Pit - foes in target area make Wis save or fall down on ground and they're falling. An attack on an affected creature breaks frees target, but they are stunned for one round and cannot act.)

9th-Level
Heal (Greater Shadow Evocation - works like Shadow Evocation, but includes the following spells: chain lightning, cone of cold, delayed blast fireball, and incendiary cloud. A successful saving throw reduces the mimicked spell to 60% of its normal damage, effect, and strength.)

It's only my opinion but healing magic just doesn't fit with illusionists, in my mind, when it comes to the game. I've read the explanations (in the PHB and now the CKG, too, thanks to Breakdaddy) and I understand them. I don't fault anyone for keeping them in their games. But to me it's makes more sense, in both game mechanics and in terms of roleplaying, explaining/justifying damage than healing coming from an illusionist. I've added the False Life spells to my game because the idea of temporary hit points ("healing" that goes away after a few minutes) fits the illusionist a lot better, in my opinion.

Just my two cents. ;)
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Galannor »

I absolutely have no problem with arcane spell casters using healing spells: I vote "leave the healing spells for the illusionist". I particularly like the flavour this class has in C&C, much more interesting IMHO than in AD&D 1 and 2 edition. In my games, illusionists in order to succesfully heal someone have to succeed in an Intelligent check with a CL = to the HD of the recipient character (higher level character being more rooted in the Prime Material Plane than lower ones), but I'm looking forward to reading the new Official mechanic in the CKG!

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by dunbruha »

Philosopher wrote: Likewise, in a fantasy world, I can grant that a strong enough belief can alter reality.
This is the biggest sticking point for me. Obviously, this is fantasy, so things can happen that are not logical. But putting healing spells aside for the moment, and talking about the overall design of the class, I feel that the class is just too powerful. The illusionist can cast an image of ANYTHING, and as long as a character fails the save, it becomes real. For example, the party comes to a wide chasm. The illusionist creates an image of a bridge. Then, because you can voluntarily fail a save, everyone in the party "believes" it is real, and walks across the chasm! Once across, they need to cross a grassland. The illusionist creates images of horses, everyone "believes", and they ride off. Or heck, why bother with horses? How about a personal pegasus mount for everyone? IMO, this is just too unbalanced. The ability to create ANY real thing (not just a specific effect) should be very high level (Wish-level spells).

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Peter »

Instead of fooling around with healing and damage spells, To make the Illusionist unique I suggest scraping them and starting over. Something like an entertainer (like David Copperfield) or a shyster (like them guys with the games on the street) would be interesting. Stat/Ability-wise they would basically be a Rogue with Illusion spells.
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by zarathustra »

dunbruha wrote:
Philosopher wrote: Likewise, in a fantasy world, I can grant that a strong enough belief can alter reality.
This is the biggest sticking point for me. Obviously, this is fantasy, so things can happen that are not logical. But putting healing spells aside for the moment, and talking about the overall design of the class, I feel that the class is just too powerful. The illusionist can cast an image of ANYTHING, and as long as a character fails the save, it becomes real. For example, the party comes to a wide chasm. The illusionist creates an image of a bridge. Then, because you can voluntarily fail a save, everyone in the party "believes" it is real, and walks across the chasm! Once across, they need to cross a grassland. The illusionist creates images of horses, everyone "believes", and they ride off. Or heck, why bother with horses? How about a personal pegasus mount for everyone? IMO, this is just too unbalanced. The ability to create ANY real thing (not just a specific effect) should be very high level (Wish-level spells).
In the stated examples, I simply rule that each PC must PASS a save in order to "believe" it into being for himself, like a reverse disbelief.

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by anglefish »

dunbruha wrote: How about a personal pegasus mount for everyone? IMO, this is just too unbalanced. The ability to create ANY real thing (not just a specific effect) should be very high level (Wish-level spells).
My illusonist refuses to cast Dragon Mount while they're in a city.

She's not a fan of falling from great heights.

She also never casts "Dog bite/Dragon bite" spells around opponents who have Mental Saves or animals who use scent and other senses in addition to sight.

She'd rather not waste the spell levels.

We all love that she can help heal the party, but ...

She and the damaged PC cross their fingers when they cast the spell. In fact, she's asking me if she can trade heal spells in when she goes up sicne they'll be doomed to fizzle.

I'm not a hard case when it comes to illusionists, but I also set them straight whenever the "we want to automaticaly fail" attitude pops up. It's only a "loophole" if you let your players get away with it.

The way I look at it. Illusions are spells where everyone gets spell resistance.

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Philosopher »

dunbruha wrote:
Philosopher wrote: Likewise, in a fantasy world, I can grant that a strong enough belief can alter reality.
This is the biggest sticking point for me. Obviously, this is fantasy, so things can happen that are not logical. But putting healing spells aside for the moment, and talking about the overall design of the class, I feel that the class is just too powerful. The illusionist can cast an image of ANYTHING, and as long as a character fails the save, it becomes real. For example, the party comes to a wide chasm. The illusionist creates an image of a bridge. Then, because you can voluntarily fail a save, everyone in the party "believes" it is real, and walks across the chasm! Once across, they need to cross a grassland. The illusionist creates images of horses, everyone "believes", and they ride off. Or heck, why bother with horses? How about a personal pegasus mount for everyone? IMO, this is just too unbalanced. The ability to create ANY real thing (not just a specific effect) should be very high level (Wish-level spells).
Those are good issues you raise. First of all, in that sort of situation, I wouldn't let anyone voluntarily fail a save in this way for the same reason I can't simply make myself believe anything I want. At higher levels, then it would become harder to pull off on the party. The idea is that you'd have to really believe it. Second, we could stipulate that the illusionist can only do so much - the spell descriptions delineate specific effects, and that would limit the sort of beliefs that can be manipulated. I reiterate that it's not for all campaigns, and some adjudication is required, but it's a perfectly viable choice.

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Peter »

The illusionist version of the spell acts in the same manner with one important
exception. The recipient of the spell must make an intelligence saving throw. If
the creature fails the saving throw, the spell acts normally. If the creature makes
the saving throw, the spell fails as the creature realizes that the spell is an
illusion. An illusionist cannot cause damage to undead.
Sense the Illusionist is busted when the creature fails the save, that would mean everyone who seen it should now know he's an Illusionist. Seeing as Wizards don't cast cure spells. So how could anyone who seen this happen keep getting a save to believe the Illusions.
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Treebore »

Peter wrote:
The illusionist version of the spell acts in the same manner with one important
exception. The recipient of the spell must make an intelligence saving throw. If
the creature fails the saving throw, the spell acts normally. If the creature makes
the saving throw, the spell fails as the creature realizes that the spell is an
illusion. An illusionist cannot cause damage to undead.
Sense the Illusionist is busted when the creature fails the save, that would mean everyone who seen it should now know he's an Illusionist. Seeing as Wizards don't cast cure spells. So how could anyone who seen this happen keep getting a save to believe the Illusions.
That is the major weakness of the Illusionist. Once you know they are an illusionist, they lose most of their power.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Mark Hall »

Treebore wrote:
Peter wrote:
The illusionist version of the spell acts in the same manner with one important
exception. The recipient of the spell must make an intelligence saving throw. If
the creature fails the saving throw, the spell acts normally. If the creature makes
the saving throw, the spell fails as the creature realizes that the spell is an
illusion. An illusionist cannot cause damage to undead.
Sense the Illusionist is busted when the creature fails the save, that would mean everyone who seen it should now know he's an Illusionist. Seeing as Wizards don't cast cure spells. So how could anyone who seen this happen keep getting a save to believe the Illusions.
That is the major weakness of the Illusionist. Once you know they are an illusionist, they lose most of their power.
I prefer to think that illusions work on a pre-conscious level... unless you stop and think about it being an illusion, you believe it's real... even when you know you're dealing with an illusionist.
I don't have to have everything perfect... just good enough that the seams don't show on the monkey suit. -Me
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Treebore »

Mark Hall wrote:
Treebore wrote:
Peter wrote:
The illusionist version of the spell acts in the same manner with one important
exception. The recipient of the spell must make an intelligence saving throw. If
the creature fails the saving throw, the spell acts normally. If the creature makes
the saving throw, the spell fails as the creature realizes that the spell is an
illusion. An illusionist cannot cause damage to undead.
Sense the Illusionist is busted when the creature fails the save, that would mean everyone who seen it should now know he's an Illusionist. Seeing as Wizards don't cast cure spells. So how could anyone who seen this happen keep getting a save to believe the Illusions.
That is the major weakness of the Illusionist. Once you know they are an illusionist, they lose most of their power.
I prefer to think that illusions work on a pre-conscious level... unless you stop and think about it being an illusion, you believe it's real... even when you know you're dealing with an illusionist.

Yeah, but like in our game yesterday, one player said, "Why should I be effected by his illusion? I know he is an illusionist and everything he does is fake." Our CK agreed, and I have to say I do too.

Edit: to be clear, this was said about our own party Illusionist. We adventure with him, we know he is an Illusionist, and my character, who is a Mage, has said numerous times how everything he does is fake.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Mark Hall »

I really think that's a weakness of the C&C conception of illusionist... that everything they do is fake. Once you start with that assumption, the class becomes a parody... the guy with no power. I'm not entirely sure how to overcome it, but starting from the assumption that your brain believes it... almost a posthypnotic suggestion... is a good place to start.
I don't have to have everything perfect... just good enough that the seams don't show on the monkey suit. -Me
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Treebore »

Mark Hall wrote:I really think that's a weakness of the C&C conception of illusionist... that everything they do is fake. Once you start with that assumption, the class becomes a parody... the guy with no power. I'm not entirely sure how to overcome it, but starting from the assumption that your brain believes it... almost a posthypnotic suggestion... is a good place to start.

Well, it is only true for now. When he starts getting his "half real" illusions, as I call the Shadow spells, then his spells will be at least partially real. Its been a "problem" ever since 1E AD&D, so is not unique to C&C.

Plus for enemies who do not "know" us, the fact that he is traveling with a Mage with real spells will help sell his Illusions as being real. But secrecy is definitely an important aspect to playing an Illusionist, which is why they have Disguise as a class skill.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Peter »

I really think that's a weakness of the C&C conception of illusionist... that everything they do is fake. Once you start with that assumption, the class becomes a parody... the guy with no power. I'm not entirely sure how to overcome it, but starting from the assumption that your brain believes it... almost a posthypnotic suggestion... is a good place to start.
Well, he is called an Illusionist. Dunbruha already posted the definitions of illusion, so I won't bother. Now if he was called a IllusionSometimesRealMaybeClericist, than it would make sense :P
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by Lord Dynel »

That's one way of looking at it, Mark. Personally, I wouldn't want the rest of the party to crap their armor when I summon something out of Orcus's nightmares. I'd want them to know that it's illusion. I want the foes to think that I'm summoning a horrible creature to fight them, or make the camp look like a stand of trees, or make the rogue turn invisible. The thing is with illusion is like the past few posters are saying - once it's known, it's known. The key is making your foes think it's real without scaring the sh!t out of your party members.

But the current line of thinking in this thread is exactly why I don't like the healing aspects - it's illusion...it's not real. The "shadow evocation" spells being an exception. Perhaps it would be a little easier to swallow if the healing was quasi-real on a failed save and not real at all on a successful save. As much as I read the justifications on illusionist healing, though, it just reads more like evocaton or conjuration to me than illusion. *shrug*
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by dunbruha »

I prefer the "illusion as hologram" version. The illusionist creates an incredibly real-looking, 3D model, complete with sounds and smells at higher levels. Everyone can see this hologram (yes, even undead <sound of can of worms being opened>). If you make the save, you realize it is a hologram, but you still can see it. If you fail the save, you think it is real. But even if you think it's real, it still is a hologram, and if it "runs" toward you, it passes right through you without doing any damage (unless you were so scared that you had a heart attack, or ran off a cliff to avoid it...).

"Shadow-spells" are different, having some reality to them.

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zarathustra
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Re: Illusionist healing spells

Post by zarathustra »

Mark Hall wrote:I really think that's a weakness of the C&C conception of illusionist... that everything they do is fake. Once you start with that assumption, the class becomes a parody... the guy with no power. I'm not entirely sure how to overcome it, but starting from the assumption that your brain believes it... almost a posthypnotic suggestion... is a good place to start.
I kind of answer that one just as simply. Ever been dreaming and crazy things happen and you just accept them as real until you wake up and then they seem ridiculous?

The illusionist is able to get into that space in your head.

At the time you can't shake it (if you fail your save) even if it seems bizarre/wrong but after the effect is gone you might know just what had happened (if you knew about the illusionist ala your example).

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