Surprise alternative

[Lord Dynel]

Does anyone use an alternative to the as-written surprise rules? The RAW are okay, but it can lead to the cleric/druid "surprise buster" scenario, with a straight up wisdom check (with no level adjustment).

I originally thought of doing the "old school" d6 method. I'd rather use the current rules, though, but with a tweak instead of using a new mechanic. I thought of keeping the wisdom check, but allowing the ranger (and maybe the barbarian, too) a surprise class ability, where they can add levels like normal. But I wanted to see where everyone else was at - if it was a problem/issue or whatnot.
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[csperkins1970]

I give all characters a chance to Move Silently or Hide with a Dexterity (Stealth) check opposed by the targets' Wisdom (Perception) check.

Those without the "Stealth" class ability (monk, rogues and assassins... and rangers in wilderness settings) add 1/2 of their level to the Dexterity check. Monk, rogues and assassins, as well as rangers in the wilderness, add their full level bonus to the Dexterity check. Armor penalties apply to these checks: -3 for "medium" armor and -6 for "heavy" armor.

All characters without the "Perception" class ability (assassins, bards, rogues, rangers and barbarians) add 1/2 of their level to the opposing Wisdom check. Those with the Perception class ability add their full level bonus to the check.

If neither side is trying to be stealthy, then it comes down to an opposed Wisdom (Perception) check.

Works out pretty well for me.
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http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/dnd3e/cnc.htm

[Philotomy Jurament]

I went to a d% check that was based on the AD&D surprise ratios. Eventually that morphed into just using the d6-based approach. When using a round with segments, I use the AD&D rules as written. When using a round without segments, I use a variant that still allows for multiple surprise actions, in some cases.

Lord Dynel wrote:
I thought of keeping the wisdom check, but allowing the ranger (and maybe the barbarian, too) a surprise class ability, where they can add levels like normal.

I considered that, too. My problem with it was that it still didn't give classes like the Ranger enough of a boost. For example, the way I see it, a 1st level Ranger should be clearly better than a 1st level Cleric. If you give the Ranger surprise as a class ability, he gets to add his level, but a 1st level Ranger is still quite likely to play second fiddle to a 1st level Cleric. (That is, even if the Ranger has Wis prime, it's likely that the Cleric will have a better Wis bonus. If the Ranger doesn't have Wis prime, then it's not even close.)

I know what you mean about wanting to avoid the introduction a new mechanism. However, in my case I decided that trying to tweak the SIEGE engine to model surprise like I wanted was more trouble than it was worth. It was easier to just use the traditional method. And having more than one mechanism or subsystem doesn't bother me; I've come to believe a universal mechanism is overrated.

Anyway, it really depends on how important sticking with SIEGE is, to you, and how willing you are to simply accept the way SIEGE will model surprise.
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http://www.philotomy.com
Lost City Campaign Log

[Lord Dynel]

Good points, PJ.

Being able to add levels doesn't help the ranger much when:

a) he only has one level or so to add (assuming would allow this), and

b) he might not have Wis as prime.

It is indeed kind of odd when a 1st level cleric can posibly be as good as an 8th level (or so...I was considering a Cleric with a +2 Wis modifier) ranger at avoiding suprise.

It would be like making swimming a Strength check that, like suprise, only adds the ability to the SIEGE check. The only ones safe in the water would be Rangers and Fighters 9without a doubt...probably a few more classes, like barbarian, but you get the picture).
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LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

[Thoom]

Here is my house rule on surprise:

For surprise I use 1d10, the same used for initiative. It's based on the AD&D version, but adapted to C&C and with a modifier based on WIS. Here's how it works.

Fighters (fighter, ranger, paladin, barbarian, knight): Surprised on 1-2 on d10

Casters (wizard, illusionist, druid, cleric): Surprised on 1-4 on d10

Others (rogue, assassin, bard, monk): Surprised on 1-3 on d10

On the first round of an encounter everybody rolls a d10. If surprise is possible for either group (or for both) then those who rolled below their surprise score (see above) on their d10 are surprised and don't act that round. The others act on their initiative as rolled on that same d10. This saves time and makes the game very fluid. If noone is surprised then there is no need to re-roll an initiative, it's already rolled. Also, if some are surprised and others aren't, there is no need to roll initiative for those that aren't surprised, it's already done!

Those who have WIS as prime have lower chances of being surprised. So if a character has WIS as a prime he can substracts his modifier to the number needed to be surprised. For exemple, a cleric with a WIS of 16 is surprised on a roll of 1-2 instead of 1-4 because of his WIS bonus of +2 is substracted from the normal range of 1-4. This bonus can never reduce the chance of surprise below 1. If surprise is possible, a character always have at least 1 in 10 chance of being surprised, whatever the character's WIS.

Note that the bonus isn't added to the d10 (which would increase the character's initiative on the first round) but it instead lowers the surprise threshold.
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Deakin Thunderstruck, Lord of The White Heron
C&C Society

[Treebore]

I am going to make "surprise" a kind of class ability. Meaning they have to be a class, iconically speaking, that is good at surprising and spotting surprises/ambushes.

So my house rule is going to be the Thief, Ranger, Barbarian, Monk, Druid, and Illusionists are going to be able to add their level to spot ambushes. For a variety of reasons, but they are all classes where I thought exceptionally good explanations could be made as to why they would be good at spotting ambush type situations, especially in either the woodlands or city environment. So I was thinking of further differentiating by having the thief, Monk, and illusionist add only half their levels outside of cities, and have the

other classes halve their levels outside of natural environments.

Classes that are good at setting such things already have such a class ability.
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The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

[serleran]

I use 1d12. Every character has a X:12 chance based on race, class, and their actions. Opponent actions may reduce the chance.

I find the SIEGE Engine does not model this "rule" to my preference so I don't use it. Similar instances occur with turning undead.
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Serl's Corner

[dunbruha]

Hmmm. Maybe I've been missing something, but I've never used a roll for surprise. We've always just gone with the situation--it's either obvious who is surprised, or if it's not, then no one is. Works well, and is simple. (and no wisdom "surprise-busting" problem, either)