What would you most want to see changed in a C&C 2nd ed?

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vivsavage
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What would you most want to see changed in a C&C 2nd ed?

Post by vivsavage »

Let's jump ahead a few years and say that C&C is releasing a second edition. What changes would you most want to see in it?

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Post by CKDad »

You forgot the option I'd vote for, which is "Nothing - no major changes are required."

While there is certainly some room for tweaking and clarification, I think Castles & Crusades works perfectly fine as-is, and delivers on what I understand it's design philosophy to call for: a clean expression of late 70s-early 80s D&D/AD&D, with game mechanics updated in view of what's been learned in game design over the last 30 years. Rules-light, easy to learn, fast to play, and easy to customize.

If someone wants to add one of options you list above, they should feel free! It's their game to run and play, after all. But I wouldn't want to see the core rules as written changed in any of those ways.
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Post by serleran »

I do not think any of these options are needed for the game, universally, which is the point of an edition change. They would make fine improvements/changes for a specific campaign or for a group of gamers, however.

That said, the only thing I would truly like to see is a class building guideline, aside from my own, but I imagine there may be something like that on the horizon.
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Post by alcyone »

I wouldn't want any of those changes. I got into C&C to escape a world of feats and skills and more rules than I need, and I don't have a problem with primes, certainly no problems I couldn't simply house rule.

The PHB represents a reasonable baseline from which to launch any changes like these on a table-by-table basis, and you have the full support of the forums for exploring them.

No, if I were to change the PHB, it would just be to add clarity to what is already presented.
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Post by Omote »

Another vote for none of those to the core C&C game. I'm OK with all of these things in C&C, but I would not like them as hard-fast rules. Let that stuff be included in the CKG, or another product.

However, as a 2nd edition to the C&C game (which I don't think will happen for a good long time, if ever), I'd like to see much more text clarification, spell descriptions updated (and added to) and if anything, the inclusion of class levels from 13-24. Yeah, the class about lev12 thing is in the CKG, but if there was going to be a 2nd edition, might as well included that too.

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Post by Go0gleplex »

Yeah...no "Nothing" option which means I can't place a vote in your poll.
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Post by Ace of Swords »

Another vote for happy as is.

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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

I have to add my +1 to the "Don't Change It" chorus. It ain't broke. Don't fix it. EVER!!!

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Post by Treebore »

Another vote for don't change a thing. It's taken me a long time to be happy with my house rules document, I wouldn't want to have to redo it now. I would love a rewrite for better clarity though.
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Post by Arazmus »

CKDad wrote:
You forgot the option I'd vote for, which is "Nothing - no major changes are required."

If someone wants to add one of options you list above, they should feel free! It's their game to run and play, after all. But I wouldn't want to see the core rules as written changed in any of those ways.

Agree 100%

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Post by Traveller »

No changes, thank you very little.
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Post by Rigon »

+1 to the "change nothing" crowd.

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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

Perhaps the more relevant question is, "Why the heck are we even discussing this idea?". Just sayin'...

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Post by Frost »

I voted for "A variety of options for class abilities, rather than a 'fixed' list of abilities." That should be addressed with the Adjuncts coming out in the CKG, though.
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Post by Go0gleplex »

[quote="Sir Osis of Liver"]Perhaps the more relevant question is, "Why the heck are we even discussing this idea?". Just sayin'...[/quote]

I concur.
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Post by Traveller »

I was going to say "especially since there officially is no second edition", but realized that while officially there isn't, the Barbarian and Illusionist revamps in the 4th print do in fact make it different enough that it could be seen as a new edition.

I think if there's one thing that we could benefit from in a second edition, it's better organization of the existing material.
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Post by Treebore »

Traveller wrote:
I was going to say "especially since there officially is no second edition", but realized that while officially there isn't, the Barbarian and Illusionist revamps in the 4th print do in fact make it different enough that it could be seen as a new edition.

I think if there's one thing that we could benefit from in a second edition, it's better organization of the existing material.

Yeah, not only that but they have also changed the grappling rules, so I can certainly see an argument for saying there already is a second edition. Like I posted earlier my biggest thing is rewriting for better clarity and understanding. Organization can use some help as well. Especially in the "CK" section after the spells section.
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Post by Ogre »

Race info before class info, both put in alphabetical order.
I personally prefer a bonus for primes rather than a seperate challenge base, but that's easy enough to house rule.

Maybe a vague skill system, based around primes, rather than skill point just skill focus's that get level bonus, half level bonus, and 3rd level bonus?

I generally think in DND(and lets face it, CnC is more DnD than DnD is now) the base to hit rules could be applied to other areas, fighters are the best base to hit, than clerics, rogues, wizards, couldn't a similar thing be done with other class abilities, rogues are the best at sneaking, than wizards, than fighters, than clerics? or some such thing.

could do a similar thing with skills. instead of spending skill points you just pick areas you are good, fair, bad and terrible at.

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Post by Sir Osis of Liver »

THAC0!!!
Let's think about this...when have edition changes occurred in the past? It seems like every time an edition change has occurred, it has accompanied a shift in the paradigm in which the game is envisioned. 2/e was basically an attempt to break away from the Gygaxian model. the d20 system was evolution of 2/e when all the tweaks people had added in terms of the Skills & Powers supplements became so ungainly that the game became extremely unbalanced and we had...you guessed it...change in the creative team behind the game. 3.5 was simply because WotC wanted the cash cow, under the guise that some of the rules were unbalanced (which I'm not denying that they were, but I think they could've been handled in errata instead of all new hardcovers). 4/e was yet another shift in the creative team to turn D&D into Magic: the RPG.

So for any of this to happen with a shift to 2/e C&C, it seems that people are looking to the day when the Chenault name appears only as a 6-pt. font acknowledgement inside the front leaf page. Gary sure didn't take D&D to 2nd edition. As I understand it, there were people who didn't like his way of doing things. Sorry, but I don't want to see that happen to TLG. That's why I put up my previous post...why in the hell are we even bothering with this thread, because I don't want to see TLG go through the fractious splits that led to subsequent editions of D&D.

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Post by Ogre »

I don't think anyone is saying they want new management at TLG, but that doesn't mean you should stop striving for improvement, but the real problem is improvement is so much about personal opinion that it's really just better to rely on house rules. change the game to meet your needs, thankfully CnC is very easy to house rule

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Post by Sakusammakko »

I've been running 3 online C&C campaigns on and off for almost 2 years and I find the rules are fine 'as is'.

I think the suggestions listed in the poll could be put as optional house rules in the CKG or some other sourcebook.

The fundamental rules should remain clean and we CKs can use other sources to add clutter.
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Post by Traveller »

Sir Osis of Liver wrote:
So for any of this to happen with a shift to 2/e C&C, it seems that people are looking to the day when the Chenault name appears only as a 6-pt. font acknowledgement inside the front leaf page. Gary sure didn't take D&D to 2nd edition. As I understand it, there were people who didn't like his way of doing things. Sorry, but I don't want to see that happen to TLG. That's why I put up my previous post...why in the hell are we even bothering with this thread, because I don't want to see TLG go through the fractious splits that led to subsequent editions of D&D.

Gary had outlined his 2d Edition, but was ousted from TSR before it could happen. Besides, look at the track record of the Dungeons & Dragons game since his ouster. Between Lorraine Williams and Hasbro the Dungeons & Dragons game has slowly but surely become the black sheep of the role playing family.

Nobody in this thread wants the same fate to befall Castles & Crusades. This thread is only to solicit people's opinions regarding what they would like to see in a 2d Edition. And unlike Lorraine Williams and Hasbro, we know that the Trolls will at least read the opinions and not simply throw them in the trash to be ignored.

Methinks you doth striketh ye panic button far too quickly.
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Post by Naleax »

Traveller wrote:
I was going to say "especially since there officially is no second edition", but realized that while officially there isn't, the Barbarian and Illusionist revamps in the 4th print do in fact make it different enough that it could be seen as a new edition.

I think there are enough changes in the 4th printing to make it a new edition. I have both the 3rd and 4th printing and shelved the 4th printing after seeing the changes.

Back on topic though. I agree with the majority of this thread. I wouldn't change anything. However, my group and I are happily playing with the 3rd printing of C&C and not the 4th printing.

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Post by serleran »

OK, I'd like to see less. Honestly. Remove some classes. No paladins, knights, barbarians, monks... no druid. These can be optional at "name level."
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Post by Rhuvein »

Not a damn thing!

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Post by Relaxo »

How cool is it that (damn near) everyone likes it as is?!

Seriously, that's got to feel good if you're the brothers Cheanault.
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Post by Kaiser_Kris »

There's a few things I'd like, but nothing really fundamental. I'd like to see stuff for classes 13-20 in the PHB. Now, I houserule critical hits and misses and do maximum HP at level 1 and a few other things, but I don't have a problem with just houseruling it.

Basically, if I want a system with lots of fiddly bits and crunch, I'll go play Pathfinder, which is well-made and I enjoy playing, but there's no denying that C&C is the more elegant and smoothly running system. And there's no denying which I'd rather DM.

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Post by TheMetal1 »

Naleax wrote:
I think there are enough changes in the 4th printing to make it a new edition. I have both the 3rd and 4th printing and shelved the 4th printing after seeing the changes.

Back on topic though. I agree with the majority of this thread. I wouldn't change anything. However, my group and I are happily playing with the 3rd printing of C&C and not the 4th printing.

I'm with Traveller and Naleax on this, albeit somewhat minor, the 4th Printing could be seen as a new edition with the changes. Of course add to the fact that some of the advertising that came out did indeed bill the 4th printing as C&C 4th Edition. ( It was merely a simple editing error of course - not a freudian slip, floating a trial baloon or anything like that!)

Anyway, I voted "Other" for changes to be made for a Castles & Crusades 2nd Edition. A 2nd Edition would, IMHO, take away all that C&C has strived to be.

One analogy, is to look at C&C like a constitution of sorts. Some will view it as Is it a living document that needs to constantly change with the times, the basic premise was good, but after so many years we need to revise it. Others will see that the document was perfectly fine as it was written and still applicable today requiring little to no change.

As for myself, I would fall in the later catagory of "fine as written." When the Troll Lords get to a 5th Printing of the PHB, I would like to see some clarification and reorganization/presentation of the book, but keep the 'rules' as is. I've seen the errata for the 4th printing, but feel no need to use it or even get the 4th printing stuff. I will evenutally will though to support the Trolls and just for the collector aspect. But really, I'm quite happy with my Yellow Books.
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Post by Treebore »

I think once we all see what is in the CKG it will be obvious to those of us who read it that we will be able to make C&C whatever "edition" we want it to be.

I mean have you guys been reading the "equipment wastage" rules Steve has been Twittering and posting to Facebook about?
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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Post by vivsavage »

Treebore wrote:
I mean have you guys been reading the "equipment wastage" rules Steve has been Twittering and posting to Facebook about?

Links, please...

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