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Julian Grimm
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Post by Julian Grimm »

babbage wrote:
Most of my problem is due to the fact that I am using old modules - the experience awards just don't translate well.


Then definately check out the matrix I worked up at DF. I really hate to plug myself but that was one of the reasons I made it.
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Post by babbage »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Then definately check out the matrix I worked up at DF. I really hate to plug myself but that was one of the reasons I made it.

Will do. Thanks.
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Post by miller6 »

After 25 years, I've come to this...you finish the dungeon, you gain a level. You don't finish, you don't get a level but keep any bonus experience points I hand out for excellent gamesmanship (for role-playing or tactical maneuvers). Bonus experience points are distributed at a flat rate of 1000xp per instance, and rarely more than 0 to 3 times throughout an adventure (bearing in mind that once a character hits the minimum for the next level, they can't gain more experience until they succesfully train for that level which normally occurs after the dungeon).

Why do it this way? I'll explain it as a top-ten countdown (ala David Letterman).

#10) Since I equate levels with aging, this advances characters in age more readily, allowing multiple generations to be played.

#9) Keeps the character's adventuring career within a real timeframe that can be remembered by the player, allowing them to see view their character's life as a whole, rather than just the events of the last couple levels.

#8 ) Discourages players from becoming too attached to their characters since they progress rapidly and retire within a real year or two. Thus if they die and don't come back, they can always be replaced by an equal level character before too long.

#7) Players stop bragging about their character's level. In fact, now some voluntarily refuse to train for their next level so their characters can continue adventuring in low to mid-range level dungeons.

#6) Long time players have less problems with newbies rolling up characters above first level (for semi-equal standing with the rest of the party). As far as I'm concerned, anyone can roll up a character of any level (within the campaign cap of 20th). This also makes players more willing to run pre-gens created for atypical adventures (such as monster characters, etc.).

#5) Reminds people they're playing for fun, not for power since levels come more readily. Results in less greedy players.

#4) Forces players to play many different characters instead of focussing on just one or two. I enjoy seeing new personalities.

#3) Allows me to run a broader range of dungeons since players end up with a binder full of characters, with multiples in each level range.

#2) Keeping track of experience is a pain. I'd rather focus on moving the game along smoothly.

And (insert drum roll)...The top reason for giving out a level each dungeon...#1) My game, my rules.
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Post by Korgoth »

Miller, doesn't that penalize the Thief and other classes with quick advancement? One of the reasons to pick a class with a speedy advancement chart is to level more often than others.

Because level for level, a Thief ain't no Paladin.
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Post by Omote »

Korgoth wrote:
Because level for level, a Thief ain't no Paladin.

Best Statement of the Day Award *ding*

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Post by Laslo Tremaine »

Korgoth wrote:
Because level for level, a Thief ain't no Paladin.

Probably my single biggest annoyance with C&C...

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Korgoth wrote:
Because level for level, a Thief ain't no Paladin.

But then again, a thief isn't supposed to be a paladin. But what they are good at, they do very well.
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Post by serleran »

My paladins are thieves. I don't know what kind of game you guys play, but if my paladin finds a holy avenger in the middle of a lake being held aloft by some farcical aquatic tart, he's taking it! Even if its only a model or a vision.

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Post by miller6 »

serleran wrote:
My paladins are thieves. I don't know what kind of game you guys play, but if my paladin finds a holy avenger in the middle of a lake being held aloft by some farcical aquatic tart, he's taking it! Even if its only a model or a vision.

Irony...gotta love it.

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Post by Omote »

Fact of the matter is that in most campaigns the Paladin is as much of a loot whore as the rest of the party, including the thieves! In their defense, they usually claim it's bounty for the church or some such non-sense.

LOOT WHORES I TELL YOU!

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Post by miller6 »

Korgoth wrote:
Miller, doesn't that penalize the Thief and other classes with quick advancement? One of the reasons to pick a class with a speedy advancement chart is to level more often than others.

Technically, yes, you have a point. Refer to reason #1.
Korgoth wrote:
Because level for level, a Thief ain't no Paladin.

But rogues tend to be more useful than paladins in non-combat, and vice versa...so I'd have to politely disagree. Each class has its purpose and opportunity to shine. Think of it this way...a single thief in a party is responsible for checking what? Every floor, wall, ceiling, door, archway, item, etc. That's a lot to cover singlehandedly (unless a cleric helps with find traps). As soon as a trap is sprung...everyone blames the rogue for not catching it. So in essence they shoulder just as much responsibility as a paladin for safeguarding the party's welfare...and have adequate means to do it.

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Post by miller6 »

Omote wrote:
Fact of the matter is that in most campaigns the Paladin is as much of a loot whore as the rest of the party, including the thieves! In their defense, they usually claim it's bounty for the church or some such non-sense.

LOOT WHORES I TELL YOU!

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That's both funny and true in many cases. We had a paladin who just couldn't stop stabbing thieves in her party in the back...claiming it was justified because they were evil. But in my campaign, such paladins would be scrubbing bathroom floors with toothbrushes for a year. But that's just me. I'm pretty strict on holding paladins to their alignment and diety. After all, that IS the whole point of the class.

If they stray too far from goodness...simply make them an anti-paladin.

I do something similar with Rangers too...evil ones become bounty hunters.

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Post by Omote »

miller6 wrote:
[If they stray too far from goodness...simply make them an anti-paladin.

And normally I would agree with you, but we've had so many arguments over the years about a Paladin playing his alignment. Paladins who claim certain less then lawful-good acts as, "well this is the doctrine of my church" argument come up so often in my group that we debate alignment, acts of alignment and a person thinking they are following certain alignment to no end.

LOOT WHORES THEY ARE! I remain convinced.

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Post by babbage »

serleran wrote:
My paladins are thieves. I don't know what kind of game you guys play, but if my paladin finds a holy avenger in the middle of a lake being held aloft by some farcical aquatic tart, he's taking it! Even if its only a model or a vision.

Farcical aquatic tart!

"Strange women laying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power should be a mandate from the masses not some farcical aquatic ceremony. If I said I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away".

From memory that!
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Post by miller6 »

babbage wrote:
Farcical aquatic tart!

"Strange women laying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power should be a mandate from the masses not some farcical aquatic ceremony. If I said I was an emperor because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd put me away".

From memory that!

Monty Python...Very nice.
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Post by miller6 »

Omote wrote:
LOOT WHORES THEY ARE! I remain convinced.

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You know what you must do as a CK then...kill them all and let their gods sort it out.
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Post by Korgoth »

Omote wrote:
Best Statement of the Day Award *ding*

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Korgoth is pleased.
miller6 wrote:
But rogues tend to be more useful than paladins in non-combat, and vice versa...so I'd have to politely disagree. Each class has its purpose and opportunity to shine. Think of it this way...a single thief in a party is responsible for checking what? Every floor, wall, ceiling, door, archway, item, etc. That's a lot to cover singlehandedly (unless a cleric helps with find traps). As soon as a trap is sprung...everyone blames the rogue for not catching it. So in essence they shoulder just as much responsibility as a paladin for safeguarding the party's welfare...and have adequate means to do it.

OK. But suppose I'm thinking that I want a character with a good chance of survival, because I don't want to start over at 1st level when everybody else is at 5th (that is, due to getting fragged by a monster or trap). Who is more survivable? One guy can heal himself, is immune to disease, can detect evil (useful for avoiding scrapes), has a good attack bonus and rolls d10 for hit points (useful for surviving scrapes); the other guy rolls d6 for hit points, is not immune to anything, cannot heal himself, and most of his abilities in combat work once, if at all, and only from surprise... and he couldn't fight his way out of a brown paper kobold.

This gets back to the 3rd Edition problem. If you make all classes advance evenly, then you have to make them all roughly equal in power at a given level. Which starts to make things really complicated in practice, no matter how good it looks on paper.

I like the uneven advancement in C&C... but you have to realize (I think) that a favorable XP table is a class ability. So if you take away the Thief's advantage in level progression, you've taken away one of his powers. Which Paladin power will you take away to compensate?

A 5th level Paladin has a lot better chance of living through an adventure than does a 5th level Thief (or "Rogue"... sorry). However, according to the XP charts he will be 6th level to the Paladin's 5th. Which gives him that extra edge he needs to remain competitive.
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Post by miller6 »

Korgoth wrote:
OK. But suppose I'm thinking that I want a character with a good chance of survival, because I don't want to start over at 1st level when everybody else is at 5th (that is, due to getting fragged by a monster or trap).
So roll up a 5th level character or 6th if you feel you need a 1 level advantage on everyone else.
Korgoth wrote:
Who is more survivable? One guy can heal himself, is immune to disease, can detect evil (useful for avoiding scrapes), has a good attack bonus and rolls d10 for hit points (useful for surviving scrapes); the other guy rolls d6 for hit points, is not immune to anything, cannot heal himself, and most of his abilities in combat work once, if at all, and only from surprise... and he couldn't fight his way out of a brown paper kobold.
Heh, my kobolds would kill both the paladin and the rogue (see Killer Kobold Cave). Seriously though, when well played, rogues are tricky opponents (i.e. use malatauf cocktails to increase their damage).
Korgoth wrote:
This gets back to the 3rd Edition problem. If you make all classes advance evenly, then you have to make them all roughly equal in power at a given level.

Rogue have mostly "miscellaneous" abilities rather than attack or defense abilities. Miscellaneous abilities help most outside combat, whereas attack and defense abilities are combat oriented. One isn't better than the other as you seem to suggest.
Korgoth wrote:
I like the uneven advancement in C&C... but you have to realize (I think) that a favorable XP table is a class ability. So if you take away the Thief's advantage in level progression, you've taken away one of his powers. Which Paladin power will you take away to compensate?

None. A well-played rogue does just fine at equal levels and compliments the paladin well. You sound as if you want them to fight each other instead of working together.
Korgoth wrote:
A 5th level Paladin has a lot better chance of living through an adventure than does a 5th level Thief (or "Rogue"... sorry). However, according to the XP charts he will be 6th level to the Paladin's 5th. Which gives him that extra edge he needs to remain competitive.
Party's are always unbalanced to some extent. That why there's a level range for every mod. Like you, I always recommend that rogues be 1 level higher than other characters in the dungeon, but it's really up to the players. Say for example a dungeon is 4th-6th level. I recommend 6th level wizards and rogues, 5th level clerics and 4th level fighter types...basically going by Hit dice so the overall hit point distribution margin is narrower.

You seem to have missed my point. Players don't really care about levels in my campaign so long as they have a character in the range that's being played, and that's a really good attitude as concerns the game. If they don't have one in the level range, they role one up or modify one they have. It's how you play the character that counts and makes the game fun. It's not about comparing your power to everyone else's. All that amounts to is bragging rights, which I highly discourage in the following manner....

If an overpowered character presses their advantage to dominate over the party in a dungeon, I target them repeatedly until they're in danger of dying...and hence no greater than anyone else. I freely admit, in my campaign, power gamers are always an endangered breed.

I respect your opinion. My suggests are not intended to tell anyone how to run their campaign, just saying what works for me. Refer to rule #1. All CKs reserve the right to paint their world as they see fit.
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Post by Omote »

miller6 wrote:
You know what you must do as a CK then...kill them all and let their gods sort it out.

I like this. Next time there is a TPK and the players look at me funny, I'll just shrug and say that "it was due to an internal dispute with the gods. Roll up attributes."

Nice.

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Post by Korgoth »

miller6 wrote:
I respect your opinion. My suggests are not intended to tell anyone how to run their campaign, just saying what works for me. Refer to rule #1. All CKs reserve the right to paint their world as they see fit.
Brian Miller

Likewise. I just want to clarify: I'm not a Rogue player myself, and I'm certainly no power gamer. But in my games (I haven't run C&C yet, I'm just recalling D&D days) a character always stands a chance of being felled by a string of bad luck - I don't fudge rolls to get the characters out of a jam.

On a per level basis, I just don't think that a Rogue is as survivable as a Paladin. Which is why I think that the rules set the Rogue at 1 level higher.

You put it in terms of a "1 level advantage". I think that's a particularly unfair thing to say to me. My whole point is that a 6th level Rogue doesn't have an advantage over a 5th level Paladin - they're on parity.

I won't presume to tell you how to run your games... but I feel that if a Rogue is denied his ability to advance in level more quickly, he's getting boned. I would try to avoid that in my games, because I don't fudge rolls, allow "raise dead" type spells (unless a major quest is undertaken as a prerequisite... so basically no) or allow new characters to be generated at party level. But since I don't know what allowances you make, or how you run the other aspects of your campaign, I obviously can't comment on the overall viability of your method. If it's working, you're obviously doing something right.

Maybe I'm sensitive to the issue because my last 3.5 campaign I watched a Rogue player suffer in silence - the DM castrated the "sneak attack" ability to such an extent that it almost never happened. So he was basically a 3rd-string fighter with few hit points who was also required to expose himself to all the worst traps. It seemed like my Fire Elementalist was practically cooking a platoon of gnolls per turn while he stood there chipping away at one flunky for half the battle, etc. I just felt bad for him.

Anyway, it's not a huge issue either way. I just think that the C&C Rogue could benefit from that extra +1 to saves and abilities, and that extra 1d6 hp.
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Post by miller6 »

Korgoth wrote:
Maybe I'm sensitive to the issue because my last 3.5 campaign I watched a Rogue player suffer in silence [...] I just felt bad for him.

Well there's the source of the problem...stop playing 3.5! What with fighter-types using whirlwind attacks and the like, it's no wonder the rogue seemed underpowered. I play C&C, where a rogue may not be a paladin, but a paladin ain't no fighter. Even so I'm happy to inform you that no-one in my campaign gets "boned" as you put it. I'm a reasonable CK. My players have few complaints. The game is about having fun. I always keep that in mind.
Korgoth wrote:
I don't fudge rolls, allow "raise dead" type spells (unless a major quest is undertaken as a prerequisite... so basically no) or allow new characters to be generated at party level.

Dude...So what happens when a character dies? That player can't play in the game any more or in any higher level adventures until they work up a new character? Or they have to be 1st level to everyone else's higher levels? I presume that's not what you meant. Excluding players or starting them at huge disadvantages is waaay uncool in my book. I think we agree wholeheartedly on that. I'd be interested to hear how it's possible to be strict on fatalities yet still keep the players in the game. In 25 years, I haven't found a way to do it without letting them role up new characters or giving them an pregen/NPC to run. People shouldn't have to go home or sit around being bored just because because their character died. They come over to play, not watch everybody else.

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Post by Korgoth »

miller6 wrote:
Well there's the source of the problem...stop playing 3.5! What with fighter-types using whirlwind attacks and the like, it's no wonder the rogue seemed underpowered.
I'm sure you're right about that! Although if he is at least allowed to do his sneak attack damage when he flanks he can be semi-useful in a fight.
miller6 wrote:
So what happens when a character dies? That player can't play in the game any more? Or they have to be 1st level to everyone elses higher levels?

Sometimes I've made them start over at 1st level, and at other times come in at 2 levels behind the party average. The latter is a bit nicer.

Of course, one point I forgot to bring up in all of this is that outside of a fight a Rogue is very useful indeed. Which means that a campaign with less combat and more talking/mystery-solving/etc. is going to favor the Rogue.

Anyway, it's all good as long as folks are having good, clean fun.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Korgoth wrote:
A 5th level Paladin has a lot better chance of living through an adventure than does a 5th level Thief (or "Rogue"... sorry). However, according to the XP charts he will be 6th level to the Paladin's 5th. Which gives him that extra edge he needs to remain competitive.

Call em Thieves, no one here is bothered by PC terms.
But anyhow, if a Thief's survivability is in question, give them Evasion.
Although, according to Gary's LA skills list in Canting Crew it can have a more fanciful name, Swashbuckling.
Something to think on.
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Post by miller6 »

Personally, I don't favor any classes or feel any are at a disadvantage. I'll play any class. They're all fun and different in their own ways. And when it comes to battle, I jump right in and do my part with no gripe about dying if it saves another party member. If that happens, I'm happy to play a new character or NPC or role-play my incorporal no-actions ghost for the rest of the game if that's all I'm permitted to do. Haunting the party can be fun too...not as fun as having actions but better than just watching.
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
I'd be interested to hear how it's possible to be strict on fatalities yet still keep the players in the game.

Hirelings, henchmen, followers, cohorts, hanger-ons, and all manner of NPC-turned-PC, until such time as the player is able to bring in the newly created one. Also, it is not a big deal to start a low level character in a high level game. I've done it. Everyone but me were 9th level, and I had to start as 1st. I opted to play a fighter, mainly for metagame reasons (the "spare equipment rack") , but I stayed back, and used a bow even though I was tons better at melee. Even when we encountered the dragon, and I was auto-affected by its fear (no save for low levels) I ran away until I couldn't feel the pressure anymore, turned around, and started popping shots at it.; Rolled two twenties in a row, and I actually finished the thing off. Hell, at such low levels, even with a 1/6th split of XP, I leveled after nearly every fight... plus, any treasure awards ensured it.

It requires a different style gaming on the player side, perhaps, but it certainly is not impossible.

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Post by miller6 »

Serl,

I used to let low level characters tag along with high level groups. In fact, I used to run my 1st level characters through other GMs high level dungeons as a way to demonstrate my strategic skills. Later, however, I came to see that lower level characters do exactly as you mention, hang back in battle and gain picks from treasures that should be above their level range. Thus, in my campaign, I don't allow it anymore so there's no more dragon slayers or vorpal swords in the hands of 2nd level characters. Aside from giving those characters an unfair edge when they go back to low level dungeons, I also realized that high level NPCs, after hearing about the character, would simply hunt them down, kill them and take their powerful items. Some PC's even considered doing the same. Hence, those brave low level characters were actually making targets of themselves. And, if after going back to a low level dungeon they somehow manage to get themselves killed, I end up with powerful items left behind in a dungeon they shouldn't be in. Just imagine it...killer kobolds becoming equiped vorpal blades and the like. Not good.
Of course, one remedy was to disallow such items in low level dungeons...but I figured that's penalizing a character for doing well, so I stick pretty closely to the dungeon level range these days, give or take a level.

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Post by babbage »

Omote wrote:
I like this. Next time there is a TPK and the players look at me funny, I'll just shrug and say that "it was due to an internal dispute with the gods. Roll up attributes."

Nice.

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Post by grrrowler39 »

Korgoth wrote:
Does anybody just do Ad Hoc experience points?

I think that works the best: "OK, for tonight's session everbody gets X." Then there's no monster-hunt mentality, and no question of balancing the amount of treasure awarded. It also lets the DM adjust the rate of advancement.

I do ad hoc in the following way:

150 XP/hour played

200 XP/session for good role-playing

200 XP/session for MVP

So, in a 4-hr session, a good player can earn up to 1000XP.

This is in addition to any encounter XP.

Treasure is its own reward as others have said. Although I do like the idea of a Wizard being able to spend GP at an "Academy of Magic" to gain experience. This example could be extended to any class. I am going to see if I can fit this into my new campaign.
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Post by babbage »

Excuse my ignorance, but what's MVP?
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Post by Gribble »

MVP=Most Valuable Player

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