View unanswered posts | View active topics It is currently Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:53 am



Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Clerics switching gods and alignments 
Author Message
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:13 am
Posts: 437
Location: Bellevue, NE
Post Clerics switching gods and alignments
Is there anything in the C&C rules that addresses what happens with regard to game mechanics if a cleric abandons his god in favor of another? And if the switch includes an alignment change, what consequences add on?

One of my players runs a cleric character going through a "crisis of faith" so if any info has been codified I'd like to at least be aware of it in case the character jumps ship.

Thanks!

_________________
Imaginatio est Vita


Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:33 am
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Posts: 3685
Location: Keizer, OR
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
I've not come across anything that does so. If you reference earlier AD&D, it would be the loss of a level or two plus any religion specific abilities and powers. Adding an alignment change would've had additional penalties as well.

A suggestion: Rather than losing the level(s); maybe the way to look at it is that the cleric would be treated as a 1st level cleric in terms of spells and turn ability (if allowed by the new deity). This would persist until double the xp required to reach the next level was earned as they had to unlearn their old faith and learn all the tenets of the new, involving a lot of meditation time and study of holy scripts, etc.. Their power takes a hit but not their ability to survive along with the rest of the party so it's not totally like starting over yet they don't just get to carry on like it's no big thing.

_________________
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."


Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:11 pm
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 2012
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
I'm not aware of anything in the C&C rules that covers this situation, although I am not an expert on the CKG's contents.

I'd suggest looking to a more story game approach to the situation rather than looking for rules/mechanics answers. Ask yourself what the change in deities should mean narratively. What would this look like if you were writing a novel? A number of ideas spring to my mind:

1. The new deity may be thrilled with the convert so that the PC doesn't lose any abilities, but maybe the old deity is pissed and going to do something about it. That could come in all sorts of forms. Maybe spell interference. The PC casts a spell granted by the new deity, but the old deity interferes in some way. Maybe the old deity sends some champions to terminate the apostate PC. Maybe the old deity demands some sort of payment to avoid being cursed or geased. Such a quest could be a great adventure hook.

2. Maybe the new deity doesn't trust converts. The PC must prove his/her loyalty to the new deity before gaining full clerical powers again. Make it a quest rather than just requiring XP accumulation. A quest is more interesting narratively than waiting for XP to accumulate. Think narratively rather than mechanically.

3. Maybe the new deity's followers have a different approach to hierarchy than the old deity. The PC may have to answer to higher authorities within the new deity's religion in a way she/he didn't have to with the old deity.

4. Maybe nothing bad/challenging happens to the PC at all. The new deity is thrilled and the old deity wants nothing to do with the PC. Why punish the PC at all if the deity switch is narratively justified?

In any event, I would avoid punishing the PC for a change in alignment. Few roads lead to Not-Fun faster than using alignment as a way to punish the player for not running the PC the way the GM thinks it should be run.

_________________
tylermo wrote:
Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.


Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:18 pm
Profile
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:13 am
Posts: 437
Location: Bellevue, NE
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
Go0gleplex wrote:
I've not come across anything that does so. If you reference earlier AD&D, it would be the loss of a level or two plus any religion specific abilities and powers. Adding an alignment change would've had additional penalties as well.

A suggestion: Rather than losing the level(s); maybe the way to look at it is that the cleric would be treated as a 1st level cleric in terms of spells and turn ability (if allowed by the new deity). This would persist until double the xp required to reach the next level was earned as they had to unlearn their old faith and learn all the tenets of the new, involving a lot of meditation time and study of holy scripts, etc.. Their power takes a hit but not their ability to survive along with the rest of the party so it's not totally like starting over yet they don't just get to carry on like it's no big thing.
Emphasis mine.
Yep. I've DMed AD&D for a long time and knew about those rules, just wasn't sure about the C&C version (if any). Thanks for the suggestion!

_________________
Imaginatio est Vita


Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:27 pm
Profile
Ulthal
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:13 am
Posts: 437
Location: Bellevue, NE
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
Buttmonkey wrote:
I'm not aware of anything in the C&C rules that covers this situation, although I am not an expert on the CKG's contents.

I'd suggest looking to a more story game approach to the situation rather than looking for rules/mechanics answers. Ask yourself what the change in deities should mean narratively. What would this look like if you were writing a novel? A number of ideas spring to my mind:

1. The new deity may be thrilled with the convert so that the PC doesn't lose any abilities, but maybe the old deity is pissed and going to do something about it. That could come in all sorts of forms. Maybe spell interference. The PC casts a spell granted by the new deity, but the old deity interferes in some way. Maybe the old deity sends some champions to terminate the apostate PC. Maybe the old deity demands some sort of payment to avoid being cursed or geased. Such a quest could be a great adventure hook.

2. Maybe the new deity doesn't trust converts. The PC must prove his/her loyalty to the new deity before gaining full clerical powers again. Make it a quest rather than just requiring XP accumulation. A quest is more interesting narratively than waiting for XP to accumulate. Think narratively rather than mechanically.

3. Maybe the new deity's followers have a different approach to hierarchy than the old deity. The PC may have to answer to higher authorities within the new deity's religion in a way she/he didn't have to with the old deity.

4. Maybe nothing bad/challenging happens to the PC at all. The new deity is thrilled and the old deity wants nothing to do with the PC. Why punish the PC at all if the deity switch is narratively justified?

In any event, I would avoid punishing the PC for a change in alignment. Few roads lead to Not-Fun faster than using alignment as a way to punish the player for not running the PC the way the GM thinks it should be run.
Emphasis mine.
The deity sending a champion is an approach I like. This gives me an idea...
The quest mandate for the new church is good. If the PC breaks faith with one god then others could certainly require s significant show of devotion by the PC before bestowing divine favor upon him.
Thanks for the suggestions!

_________________
Imaginatio est Vita


Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:38 pm
Profile
Cleric of Zagyg
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Posts: 10769
Location: Somewhere in Time
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
Good thread here. Lots of food for thought!

Like!

:)

_________________
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth


Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:48 am
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Posts: 2133
Location: North Coast
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
The pc may be enticed to switch. Think a demon promising a paladin greater power or personal desires to become an “anti-paladin”. Think about phones or cable tv vs dish..., do the gods care who follows them? Do they recruit? If they are pissed one leaves would they not want to recruit?
See if the mortal can cut a dangerous deal to go up in power not down.

_________________
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.


Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:54 pm
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:00 am
Posts: 3778
Location: Oklahoma
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
This is an area that I'm an out lyer on.

My home brew was always basic clerics and paladins and the like did not follow 1 specific deity. They prayed to the gods and goddesses of their society that fit the specific need or the location (city v village v rural/rustic v sea community v war camp etc etc etc)

If it was harvest time then the cleric prayed to Demeter as needed, if the village was sending the men off to war then the cleric offered to Ares or Athena, etc.

So there was no issue with switching gods.

However, there were priests that were focus on 1 specific deity. They were more unique and very focused on the tenants of their patron deity. If you needed a blessing ou your crop do not go to the temple of Hermes and ask one of his priests for the blessing.

For them, there would be HUGE issues if they turned their back on their patron deity and chose another. Now the power they switch to may give them powers to replace the powers lost from turning their back on the previous deity. However, will the god trust them completely (if you forswore one oath to a god once, it is easier to do it a 2nd or 3rd time). Plus, the followers of the previous deity will not look kindly on a traitorous priest. Depending on the outlook of the society it may be shunning, expulsion from the community, or the holy assassins may be loosed on the traitorous priest.

As for alignments I've a more fluid look on it. Of course there are the hard and fast rules for some classes (A human paladin must be lawful good) however there is still a flex in it - he can be small l lawful big G good and put more emphasis on the good of society and the letter of the law. But for the normal folk that is not that stringent there is a good bit of flex, and over time they may flow one way or another - no huge change but someone in their youth that was LG or Lg may slowly learn that letter of the law is less preferable to the spirit of the law so them may slowly become NG

Captain_K wrote:
The pc may be enticed to switch. Think a demon promising a paladin greater power or personal desires to become an “anti-paladin”. Think about phones or cable tv vs dish..., do the gods care who follows them? Do they recruit? If they are pissed one leaves would they not want to recruit?
See if the mortal can cut a dangerous deal to go up in power not down.


Nice I like that , I've always loved temptation to the good guy (and redemption to the bad guy) but I never took it to that step. At most I had a influential deviless use a PC paladin to combat demons and other devils that were poaching into her area and opposing her. And of course dropping hints for him that made him doubt things or see that his good actions may have ramification he couldn't quite see (boy when the campaign was over and I let the player know exactly what was going on the player threatened death and then he killed my PC on day one of the next campaign just to balance the scale and expunge the demons and quiet the spirits - good times :lol:

To answer your question on if pissed would the recruit. Yes in my homebrew they would be very pissed and like I said above there would ne ramifications but they would be recruiting all the time regardless of a lone priest straying from the fold

_________________
"And so I am become a knight of the Kingdom of Dreams and Shadows!" - Mark Twain

Forgive all spelling errors.

Knight Errant & Humble C&C Society Contributor
C&C Society


Wed Aug 21, 2019 3:42 am
Profile
Ungern
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 2:01 pm
Posts: 58
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
That does seem like a conflict in frpg gaming - cultures are assumed to be polytheistic, worshiping pantheons, but clerics and paladins are based on monotheistic Templar Knights and the like. I always thought dishonorable deeds are much more offensive than idle ceremonies. And I like the idea of an NPC abandoning/defecting from an evil god, and PCs having to protect him/her from assorted zealots/assassins/avatars.


Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:10 pm
Profile
Greater Lore Drake
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Posts: 2133
Location: North Coast
Post Re: Clerics switching gods and alignments
Polytheists accept all gods of all countries because its logical. following only one god would only work if one had a full time gig doing that. People go to each god for each reason as you note Lurker for the action needed. You need to sue someone, you hire a lawyer not a plumber, but if you're a priest of lawyers, you still go get a plumber when the pipes are backed up... same for gods in their sphere of control. Monotheism was a slow claw from a local god becoming "a more capable god" good for all occasions.. it was a new concept.

Anyway, its a game, if the switch is good in the game and makes sense, then have the affects be good in the game too. All changes should come with good and bad affects, balance them unless you just want to say "its not possible" and make the penalty too steep. After all, get your PC killed or "have the PC walk away from the party" and then start a new PC... if the penalty is too steep, that option would come to mind.

_________________
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.


Sat Aug 24, 2019 12:14 pm
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 10 posts ] 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.