Shipping this Week {05-08-09) TLG 80113 Monsters & Treas

Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:24 am

Product Type: Corebook

Format/Price: Hardcover, $19.99, 128 pages

Written By: Stephen Chenault & Robert Doyel

Ordering Info: TLG 80113, ISBN TBD

Release Date: Available in MARCH/APRIL 2009
Monsters & Treasure (3rd Printing)

Alea Iacta Est - The die is cast!

The latest incarnation, our 3rd Printing, of the C&C Monsters & Treasure with more art and a new design and look and an expanded index!

The roads long journey ends only when the beast is slain and the wondrous artifact plucked from his close guarded horde! Monsters and Treasure are cornerstones of any gaming experience. Castles & Crusades Monsters and Treasure is an invaluable resource to players and Castle Keepers alike. With over 150 monsters fully detailed and a complete list of treasure, this book will make running an evening of C&C all the more enjoyable.

From Dragons to Goblins, Giants to Faeries, this is the essential book of monsters for Castles & Crusades. In this bok you will find a wealth of information about monsters and the treasures they keep. Combat, spell casting, breath weapons, movement, poisons, treasures, magic creation, magic items and much more lay within these pages.

Treasure? Treasure is more than coin and gem, more than magic items. Youll learn how to award treasure, from the simple, such as coin and gems, to the complex, like land and titles. Treasure also includes items of unusual value; the spoils of adventure include exotic animal pelts, fine clothing, enchanted drink, scrolls, potions and more. Lists and descriptions of magical weapons, enchanted items and artifacts complete the book. With quick start guidelines on how to create magic items, enchanted items, scrolls and potions C&C Monsters & Treasure is a source book you wont want to do without.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:40 am

Sentinants and Orinsu? Double entries? Dammit now I have to buy a new printing...jerk.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:59 am

Now THAT'S an unexpecred cover! Whoa...
-O
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:23 am

Didn't see the link. That is sweet!
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:27 am

Well, I'll be the naysayer....

I do not like the cover.

It is way too much WotC-inspired fourth edition repeat. It looks like 95% of everything else released (especially the format of Goodman Games materials), and completely destroys any hope of brand identity because it looks like everything else.

And, I'm so thrilled to have these included. C&C has always needed more anime.

It would have been nice to have been told the reprint was changing so drastically. But, whatever.

Here's to the future... wherever that may be.
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AGNKim · Post by **AGNKim** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:05 am

serleran wrote:
And, I'm so thrilled to have these included. C&C has always needed more anime.

Oh God in Heaven, please tell me that was sarcasm. Saying C&C needs more anime is like saying Jessica Alba needs more Amy Winehouse.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:06 am

I have to disagree. I never liked the old covers. I do like the new and I think people will look at the books more seriously than they have. I don't see WOTC covers in them. I see something similar to the revised 1e covers. Which I liked as well.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:12 am

Quote:
Oh God in Heaven, please tell me that was sarcasm.

As much as I hate to please you, it was.

Quote:
I don't see WOTC covers in them.

Maybe it's just my eyes then:

GG DCC 4e --

WotC 4e Core Book --

It looks like a form letter.

This new format would have been awesome 18 months ago, when it was original. Now, I'm afraid it appears to be an attempt to copy, or possibly confuse people into buying a product thinking it is for 4th Edition.

At least the old cover had a distinctness to it, something that definitely said "this is C&C."
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:17 am

I see minor similarities that's all.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:22 am

Actually, the design of the new look is based off of the look I was doing for the LA design. Since that is no longer an option I modified it a bit, and blended elements from the C&C design and went with that.

Course, I actually designed this look before 4e came out. So if anything, its 4e imitating my genius. But I'm used to that. (yes, I'm being whimsical.)
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:43 am

Damn, even the Pathfinder books have that same basic block design:

1-2" header for Logo -- linear block

3-7" image for cover -- square

final inches for footer -- linear block

The only real differences are the color schemes, the texts, and the actual images used for the cover portion. There's absolutely no difference in layout otherwise. None with a slightly askew logo. None with the logo and footer reversed, this probably to make them easier to read if they actually make it to a book store (like those exist these days...), so, yeah, I guess that's "minor."

Oh, and Peter -- so? Even if you had designed it up to two years ago, its not like it was used on anything to set the trend... now, it appears to be following it.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:49 am

Soo....its better to be a positive than a negative. Even in physics.
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:58 am

Depends what you attract...

Takes a negative to gain a positive. Also, its what holds everything together. Or, so I like to think. Physics is for wussies, like MacGuyver.
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 5:59 am

serleran wrote:
1-2" header for Logo -- linear block

3-7" image for cover -- square

final inches for footer -- linear block

Hmmmm. Kinda sounds like my Eastmark Gazateer, the various district CZ books, More Beasts of Legend, A Problem of Manors, The Rock and They Who Watch as well....

All strikingly familiar to this "new' design.

Wasn't a problem for me then. Don't think it will be a problem for me now.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:05 am

Missing the footer (or the footer was added to the header...) So, close, but not quite.

Closer, but the header is far too large. Though, I'll admit that is more like the new C&C design. However, the background map, rather than a solid color, gives it something unlike what the new design has. Definitely obviously a "stepping stone" from the earliest designs to the new.

So, like I said -- its probably just my eyes. I see a pattern I don't like, but it doesn't mean the pattern is there...

I'll be glad to say I'm wrong. But, the new look is not my favorite. The very first thing I thought when I saw it was "4e."
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DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 6:22 am

serleran wrote:
The very first thing I thought when I saw it was "4e."

I don't see it that way. The 4e books are full page images with the header and footer as banners across the image. So it gives a different image to me.

It is more similar to the GG 4e stuff but looking at TLG products from the past two years this has obviously been an evolutionary thing.

tacojohn4547 · Post by **tacojohn4547** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:29 am

I've gotta agree with Serl on this. The new M&T cover really reminds me of the WotC 4E cover layout scheme (and by association the new Goodman Games 4E DCC cover layout scheme). Bleh.

I've liked the earlier C&C cover schemes, with the map as a background, since seeing the first few products come out. It was different, in the right ways, from everything else coming at the time (d20/3.x in particular). The look helped establish a separate brand identity that in my opinion helped C&C stand apart from everything that mimiced the WotC 3.5 cover look.

Graphically speaking, the new M&T cover bears no similarity at all to the revised 1E core book covers. Those revised TSR book covers had full page art over which the book title and other text and logos were added.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:41 am

Heh, folks are going to have to come up with a better argument than its 'too 4e'. I got tired of the 'its not 1e enough' and similar nonsensical sophistry several years back.
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Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:44 am

I just can't see any 4e design. As DD pointed out they are different and if you have seen the 4e books up close you can spot the difference. I think the design looks a bit cleaner and refined over the the originals. That is why I associated the cover with the revised 1e books. (As an aside, I never liked the original 1e cover art either)

The content is what I am more interested in. All ready I have seen two monsters that are not in my M&T and the two mentioned above are Aidhe monsters. This makes me wonder if C&C and Airdhe are becoming more entwined. As well, the literary entries hold my interest. I haven't bought a new PH or M&T since 2nd print of the PH and my M&T is first print.

With the changes coming I want the new prints to stay current. And, BTW, the first person that suggests this is C&C 2e gets a personal visit from me and a cattle prod.
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:11 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Sentinants and Orinsu? Double entries? Dammit now I have to buy a new printing...jerk.

Actually I had to fix that. I must have accidently taken the ad copy from the very first conception of the M&T (back in 2004) because those monsters are specifically set for the Monsters & Treasure of Aihrde book. I'll get Brian to fix the site information and match up with this one that I just edited!

Steve
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:19 pm

serleran wrote:
Well, I'll be the naysayer....

I do not like the cover.

It is way too much WotC-inspired fourth edition repeat. It looks like 95% of everything else released (especially the format of Goodman Games materials), and completely destroys any hope of brand identity because it looks like everything else.

And, I'm so thrilled to have these included. C&C has always needed more anime.

It would have been nice to have been told the reprint was changing so drastically. But, whatever.

Here's to the future... wherever that may be.

I appreciate the observations Robert. However you are a little mistaken in your representation of the Orinsu. I guess you haven't kept up with any of the older Erde material, nor read the Codex, as the Orinsu is a monster that I created for the world of Erde several years ago. Of course as I just noted that monster isn't in the M&T, it will be appearing in the M&T of Aihrde, that ad copy was mistakenly mingled with this yesterday as I shunted files to Brian.

Steve
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 3:37 pm

serleran wrote:
Damn, even the Pathfinder books have that same basic block design:

1-2" header for Logo -- linear block

3-7" image for cover -- square

final inches for footer -- linear block

Robert you are cracking me up this morning. This sounds like this the creme colored books. I have the MT in front of me.

The C&C logo is in the upper 2 inches, the title in the next inch, the picture is 5 inches square and the TLG logo is on the final few inches. hahahah

serleran wrote:
The only real differences are the color schemes, the texts, and the actual images used for the cover portion. There's absolutely no difference in layout otherwise. None with a slightly askew logo. None with the logo and footer reversed, this probably to make them easier to read if they actually make it to a book store (like those exist these days...), so, yeah, I guess that's "minor."

Now I know you showing your trademarked sarcasm. There are no difference but for the color, the title, art and the logos!

serleran wrote:
Oh, and Peter -- so? Even if you had designed it up to two years ago, its not like it was used on anything to set the trend... now, it appears to be following it.

If that trend was set, it was set far longer than two years ago and certainly not by WoTC.

Steve
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Troll Lord · Post by **Troll Lord** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:13 pm

Hey folks,

I appreciate everyone's comments on the M&T layout. As usual I was a bit taken back at first by the negative comments as I've been so jazzed about the new look. Why I was taken aback I don't know, you would think I had grown used to it by now! LOL

The new cover incorporates some design issues that we've worked on for some time here and it addresses some serious marketing flaws that we had never addressed in the past.

For the marketing: The older C&C look is too busy. The idea is to create an eye pop from the first casual glance. The original cover of C&C, with the non-peter map, was much too busy. Peter's extraordinary art was muted by the busy nature of the background. This was unintentional as the printed version came out far more yellow and highlighted the map more than Davis and Peter had intended. When coupled with the ragged edges of the "parchment" look it made it worse. Though distinctive the logo in the cursive format only served to highlight this issue. For those who knew what C&C was, it didn't matter so much. For those who didn't it was a bit jarring.

This all served to distract the eye.

This problem was somewhat addressed in the 2nd printings of the book.

A further problem developed over time. The creme or yellow color began to play against the attractive look of the art as the number of products piled up. After a while a display rack at the cons, as well as in any store would look like a giant sheet of yellow. It wasn't good, nor pleasing to the eye.

The new look is designed to attract attention. C&C has to grow out of its present market and into the wider market. It has a very slow growth, but it is way past time to expand further. THis new look is designed to do that. The white title on red stands out on the shelf, the blocky font of the title makes it very readable and the blue virtually leaps out of the cover. All very good signs.

A design that you probably don't see on the site is the map. It is still there on the background, you can see it on the yellow actually. But it will be more visible in the printed version.

Thanks!

Steve
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:38 pm

As I posted in the thread under general forum, I like the design very much, and I know from firsthand experience now that trying to make every single individual gamer's tastes only leads to headaches and stomach churning. After putting up the website for the Society I had 4 different emails, 3 applauding it, but one literally ripping it and telling, in detail, just how much a disaster it was and how it needed to be changed completely, including specifics on fonts.
The issue here is simple - making the trade dress of the C&C look work to expand beyond the core enthusiasts (like me) who come to these boards. I think this look will accomplish that. More people will stop and pick up these books than they would the yellow covers, I believe.

So my own personal applause here for the work done on these! You'll never please all the people all the time, but don't feel disgruntled or let down when you create something you're proud of if it's not perfect for everyone!

So to Peter and Steve:

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 4:38 pm

Actually, I had forgotten about the orinisu listed in the Codex, since I have not used Erde / Aihrde for quite some time. So, not recalling them, I did a quick Google and up came this Mr. Potato-Head style build-a-pet anime thing...

But, I'm sorry. I had an initial reaction which was likely provoked by a long, useless, annoying day at work -- I vented.

I still do not particularly like the cover layout, but the image itself is very nice.

I wish success on the endeavors. I do hope the color banner as the header changes with each "type" of book. For example, if I had my way, I'd make the M&Ts blue.
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Sir Osis of Liver · Post by **Sir Osis of Liver** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 1:23 am

When something like this comes up, and lots of people have opinions one way or the other, I ask myself one little question: "Could I have done better?" Most of the time, the answer is a resounding, "NO!" So it is here. This is one of the things that I razz some of the other guys in my gaming group on when I'm a player. Invariably during a game, somebody makes a crack about how the GM is running the game, then it turns into an avalanche. After a few minutes, he usually shoots me the, "Okay, it's time...." look out the corner of his eye, and I remind them that it's his game to run his way. The time for that discussion is after the game is over.

I'm a scientist, not a marketing guru. As far as I'm concerned, if the Trolls want to take things in a different direction with regard to the look of their product, who am I to tell them what to do? If they think that the new look will bring in new business, then more power to them. I hope they're right. Personally, I'm more interested in what's between the front and back cover than I am in what's on each cover. I bought into the game, not because of how cool or how busy I thought the cover was, but on the content of the product. I'd rather they do something that will keep them competitive and producing new game materials for years to come than I am in whether or not I like the way the book looks.

Sir Osis of Liver

p.s. I really don't see anything about the cover that I really dislike. Just the fact that it doesn't say "Wizards of the Coast" on it is a huge plus for me at this point.

danbuter · Post by **danbuter** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:30 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Heh, folks are going to have to come up with a better argument than its 'too 4e'. I got tired of the 'its not 1e enough' and similar nonsensical sophistry several years back.

My argument is that it's just plain uglier than the current covers.
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moriarty777 · Post by **moriarty777** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:44 am

Since everyone else seems to be offering an opinion... here's another.

For the most part I like it. I like the cover art though part of me will miss the classic artwork that was used before. I can certainly understand the concerns with the previous cover design and I see this as a strong step to address this.

I would have some concerns regarding the prominent 'Siege' logo in relation to the 'Castles & Crusades' logo. Both grab your attention and someone who doesn't know better might be thrown off by it. This isn't so much of a problem now but may become one as more Siege products hit the shelves. In this case, it simply comes down to this. Are we playing the Castles & Crusades RPG or are we playing the Siege RPG? The Siege logo should be smaller.

While on the subject of logos, the only thing I dislike about the new cover is the C&C logo. My favorite was the one used on the first and second printing of the PHB. I thought the one used on the third printing was nice enough and not hard to get used to. Now, as subjective this will sound, I dislike the new one. I wish I could explain why I do but I can't. I can say that I don't like how the two C's look in relation to another using this particular font/style. Obviously they aren't quite the same since one is accommodating an ampersand within it but this one doesn't seem to pull it off well. By contrast, I like how the 'L' looks in relation to the sword in the logo and feel that there is some good potential.

Branding can be a tough cookie to crack and I don't necessarily envy the job. I also don't expect all out comments to make a lick of difference here but, here you have it -- for your consideration.

M
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:50 am

*chuckles* Well, at least the previous two posts stand out as excellent examples of the difference between an opinion and a well reasoned argument. The latter which I'm more apt to consider.
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seskis281 · Post by **seskis281** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 3:59 am

danbuter wrote:
My argument is that it's just plain uglier than the current covers.

See, it really is a matter of taste, and designers can never please everyone - I love the new design and think it's a major improvement over the yellow covers, so my tastes are obviously different from danbuter's here.

The logo differences are just that - differences, which make the eye adjustment to the font hard for people who are used to the previous logo... human beings tend to seek that which they are familiar with and resist change with things they already are comfortable or well-broken-in with.... but remember, the trade dress issues are about expanding and targeting new C&C players.
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Troll Lord Games

Shipping this Week {05-08-09) TLG 80113 Monsters & Treas

Shipping this Week {05-08-09) TLG 80113 Monsters & Treas

My own $0.02