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Ideas needed in conversion of The Socerer's Citadel 
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Red Cap
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Post Ideas needed in conversion of The Socerer's Citadel
Hello everyone,

My group has converted to C&C and we have just started "The Socerer's Citadel" aka Crane's Tower in Necromancer Game's excellent module Demons & Devils.

For anyone who has more expertise than myself (i.e. most folks), how would you alter the traps and monsters. I'm really interested in the devils. Should I lift them straight from the old AD&D Monster Manual? I'm afraid that the direct translation from the M.M. won't be dangerous enough since the characters range from 8 to 10th level and are themselves conversions from 3.5 with a few feats kept as hold overs (and appeasement).

Any ideas or suggestions are appreciated. The party has made it through the tunnel and we are posed on a three day game fest the end of the month.

Thanks

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Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:45 pm
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Mogrl

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The 2E versions, plus feel free to add more. What feats did you allow as holdovers?

You could integrate feats like I do. You do not have a list. Technically anyone can attempt any feat. Now I use 3E as guidelines as to what level a character has to be, and maybe an attribute score, so far I have ignored pre-req's. Essentially I decide if and when a feat type of action, or maneuver, can be attempted in addition to their normal attack.

Normally I see attempts for cleaves and an extra attack. Sometimes a power attack or a "improved Initiative" check (which I only give a +2, especially since in C&C DEX does not add to initiative).

If the feat is a fighter type feat in 3E then fighters get to treat the attempt as "Prime", meaning the TN is 12. IF it is a feat outside of their class in 3E then it is a non-Prime attempt, so a TN of 18.

Thats it in a nutshell, once you start playing with it you'll see it goes prety easy. The tricky part is deciding how many to allow them per round, I suggest 1 per 3 levels.

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Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Tue Oct 03, 2006 9:17 pm
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Lore Drake

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I would go with the 2E devils if possible, they are a big step up from the 1E versions. If not that use the 3E, just drop the bonus's they recieve for stats.
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Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:33 pm
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Mogrl

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1E. If they are played right, as in, the judicious use of their innate spell abilities are applied, they are nigh unkillable. They do not need hundreds of HP or tens of spell abilities... the ones they have in 1E are more than enough.

Put them in a desecrated location, providing a bonus of +4 or so on saves... and they won't be so easy to kill. Just let your wicked imagination flow, and a single demon can kill a high level party.

As for the traps: the C&C difficulty = DC - 15.


Tue Oct 03, 2006 10:44 pm
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Red Cap
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Treebore, I've allowed each of the PCs to pick 3 or 4 feats from a list I worked up on my own with LOTS of reading and borrowing from the Dragonsfoot board. It was the only way to get a couple of my gang to leave the 3.X world and travel to a place where it is fun to be the DM again. I've toned down the bonuses to bring them in line with C&C. I kept feats like cleave and a modified version of improved two-weapon fighting. If it makes them happy as players and I can run the game the way it's meant to be than I'm happy too.

Second edition devils eh? I've always had a strong dislike for the 2nd edition. I'm not sure if I still have the Monsterous Manual from the edition that rates lower than 3rd in my book. I will go poking around my boxes of books however.

Serlern, I'm thinking along your lines. How would you translate Spell Resistance from 1st edition into C&C?

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Tue Oct 03, 2006 11:59 pm
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Mogrl

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SR from 1E = (1E / 5) + 1, so that a 35% becomes a 8, for example.

That is the general guideline.


Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:21 am
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Mogrl

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7. 8 is 40%.

As for feats, give my system a try for a couple of sessions. I forgot to say the TN is modified by the HD of the opponent against whom they are attempting this "special maneuver". They also get to add their own level as a bonus.

It would also depend on what kind of players you have. Mine just attempt feats when the going gets tough, not all the time in every fight. Just when they are in the kind of fight where you need that something "extra". If you have the kind of players who would use them all the time maybe you can put in some kind of rule to limit their use. Such as only against opponents that are 2HD or more higher than your parties, or only after you have lost 50% of your HP's, and desperation kicks in, things like that.

As for two weapon fighting it is in C&C. One of my players has expressed an interest in going two weapon style. I told them that their penalty would be offset by each level they gain while consistantly/regularly using the style. So after 3 levels they would be -0 on the primary and only -3 on the secondary. After 6 levels they would have no penalties.

They are asking this while their character is 8th level, so he would be doing this for a good while. Starting this at 1st level would probably be insane/suicidal. Now at 8th level with a BtH of +7, an 18 (+3) STR, a +3 primary weapon and a +3 secondary weapon (so the +13 turns into +10 primary and +7 on the secondary). So he is considering doing it, since he would have no penalties by 14th level.

I am leaving myself open to redoing this, based on how long it actually takes for him to level under the C&C xp charts. I may change to something like "every 50,000 xp's you gain will negate 1 point of the penalty". No I am not saying they pay these xp's, I am saying they have to have that much experience with using the style in order to offset the penalties. If they don't constantly use the style and suffer the penalties they don't gain the "experience with the style" to offset the penalties.

So if they tell me they are learning the style and then constantly, or most frequently, fight one handed, they will never learn to offset the penalties.

So the "price" they pay is suffering those penalties until they learn to offset/deal with them.

I am considering using this "logic" for other things as well.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:20 am
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Mogrl

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No. The +1 is always needed. Going backwards would be (SR -1) x 5%.

You forget in AD&D the MR is contestable, but in C&C it is not. So, for example, in AD&D, even a first level wizard reduces the MR by a fraction... so, technically all the effective MRs in AD&D are lower than they list, in actual gameplay. Therefore, in C&C, one must add it back in, to get the equivalent... that is why the +1 is used.

If you want to use MR/5 as your houserule, go ahead, but the official, and most accurate method is (MR/5)+1. Straight division actually makes SR weaker. Or, actually, one can use a SIEGE Engine resolution of d20 + Caster Level + Attribute Modifier >= 11 + listed SR, though that will not help in converting to find the actual value. As one can see, the 11 is the same thing as the "+1" in the actual conversion manner, so, using the SIEGE way, one would use a straight division...


Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:42 am
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Mogrl

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Well it is usually, if not always, in percentages ending in 0 or 5. So I like being able to divide the percentage by 5 and use that as my number. So 50% is 10, 95% is 19, 10% is 2, etc... Works fine for me so far. I haven't used that many requiring/having resistance, but of the ones so far I have been happy with how it played.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Wed Oct 04, 2006 2:10 am
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Red Cap
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Thanks guys.

That's what I'm looking for.

Treebore, here's a copy of the Word document I've handed out to the players concerning feats. Sorry for the long post!

Castles & Crusades Feats

Many of the feats listed have been modified from the SRD. Some are new and some are borrowed from others on the Dragonsfoot boards.

A characters effective level can be found by adding the characters level and one-half of the number of feats together. Drop the fraction.

The following 3.5 feat is available for use without having a feat. Consider it a combat tactic:

POWER ATTACK

Prerequisite: n/a.

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base to hit. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Buying Feats:

Feats can be purchased using experience points. The following chart lists the amount of experience needed to acquire a feat. The list of feats to purchase follows the chart. One feat may be purchased upon the PC earning enough experience points to go up a level. In lieu of taking the new level, the PC may expend the necessary experience points to purchase a feat (if enough experience points are available) and lowering the experience points the PC has, thus remaining at the current level. Please note the more feats a PC has, the more experience points it costs to purchase a new feat.

Number of Feats Experience to Expend

1 (free feat at first level) 0

2 2,000

3 4,000

4 6,000

5 9,000

6 12,000

7 25,000

8 50,000

9 75,000

10 100,000

11 120,000

12 130,000

13+ 150,000 per feat

AUGMENT SUMMONING

Benefit: Each creature you conjure with any summon spell gains +2 hit points per hit die for the duration of the spell that summoned it.

BLIND-FIGHT

Benefit: In melee, you get a -7 instead of a -10 penalty fighting blind or attacking an invisible opponent.

CLEAVE

Benefit: If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You can use this ability once per round.

COMBAT CASTING

Benefit: You get a +4 bonus on Concentration checks made to cast a spell while on the defensive or while you are grappling or pinned.

DISARM, IMPROVED

Prerequisite: Must be a fighter, ranger, knight, rogue, assassin, monk, cleric, or paladin.

Benefit: This feat bestows a +1 to hit when attempting to disarm an opponent. See p. 119 of the PH for more information about disarming.

DODGE, IMPROVED

Prerequisite: Dex 13.

Benefit: Instead of dodging three attacks in a round, the character can dodge up to five attacks in a round. See page 119 of the PH for information on dodging.

EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spells actual level.

ENLARGE SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range to increase its range by 100%. An enlarged spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

Spells whose ranges are not defined by distance, as well as spells whose range is touch does not have increased ranges.

EVASION

Prerequisite: Dex 13.

Benefit: When evading in combat, this feat allows an additional +1 bonus to your AC. For more information about evading, please see page 119 of the PH.

EXTEND SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: An extended spell lasts twice as long as normal. A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat. An extended spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

FAR SHOT

Benefit: When you use a projectile weapon, such as a bow, its range increment increases by one-half (multiply by 1-1/2). When you use a thrown weapon, its range increment is doubled.

FLANK ATTACK, IMPROVED

Prerequisite: Base to hit +1.

Benefit: The bonus to hit becomes +2. See page 119 of the PH for more information about flank attacks.

FORCE OF PERSONALITY

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all Charisma saving throws.

GREAT FORTITUDE

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all Constitution saving throws.

GREAT STRENGTH

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all Strength saving throws.

HEIGHTEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

IMPROVED ATTRIBUTE

Benefit: Pick one attribute to improve upon. Add one point to the attribute of your choice. This feat may be chosen multiple times and the affects do stack. By means of this feat no attribute can rise above 18.

IMPROVED FAMILIAR

Benefit: The spell caster adds +10 on roll to Summon Familiar (to a max. of 20).

IMPROVED INITIATIVE

Benefit: You get a +2 bonus on initiative checks.

IMPROVED LAY ON HANDS

Prerequisites: Paladin

Benefit: The paladins laying on of hands heals 3 hp per level.

LIGHTNING REFLEXES

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on all Dexterity saving throws.

LOWER RESISTANCE

Benefit: You lower the targets spell resistance by 1.

MANYSHOT

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit: As a standard action, you may fire two arrows at a single opponent within 30 feet. Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a 4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally.

MAXIMIZE SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spells actual level.

NATURAL SPELL

Prerequisites: Wis 13, druid.

Benefit: You can complete the verbal and somatic components of spells while in a wild shape. You substitute various noises and gestures for the normal verbal and somatic components of a spell.

You can also use any material components or focuses you possess, even if such items are melded within your current form. This feat does not permit the use of magic items while you are in a form that could not ordinarily use them, and you do not gain the ability to speak while in a wild shape.

POINT BLANK SHOT

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.

POWER ATTACK, IMPROVED

Prerequisite: Base to hit +1.

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your characters level. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

PRECISE SHOT

Prerequisite: Point Blank Shot.

Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard 4 penalty on your attack roll.

REAR ATTACK, GREATER

Prerequisite: Base to hit +3, thief, rogue, or assassin. Must have the Improved Rear Attack feat.

Benefit: An additional +1 to hit is conferred with this feat on all rear attacks.

REAR ATTACK, IMPROVED

Prerequisite: Base to hit +1.

Benefit: All successful rear attacks gain +1 on damage.

SHIELD MASTERY

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus to your AC when using a shield.

SHIELD SPECIALIZATION

Prerequisite: Shield Mastery

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus to your AC when using a shield. This stacks with SHEILD MASTERY.

SHIELD DOMANACE

Prerequisite: Shield Specialization

Benefit: You get a +1 bonus to your AC when using a shield. This stacks with SHEILD MASTERY and SHEILD SPECIALIZATION.

SILENT SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: A silent spell can be cast with no verbal components. Spells without verbal components are not affected. A silent spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

SKILL FOCUS

Benefit: Choose one class ability and add +2 to that abilitys check. Multiple uses of this feat do not stack. This does not affect combat abilities.

STILL SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: A stilled spell can be cast with no somatic components.

Spells without somatic components are not affected. A stilled spell uses up a spell slot one level higher than the spells actual level.

STUNNING INTELLECT

Benefit: You gain +1 on all Intelligence based saving throws.

TOUGHNESS

Benefit: You gain +1 hit point per level.

Special: A character may gain this feat only once.

TURN DEMON/DEVIL

Prerequisite: Cleric 8th level.

Benefit: This feat allows a cleric to turn demons & devils just as clerics can turn undead. It becomes a Class Ability allowing the clerics level to be added to the check. However, all attempts to turn such monsters are at a -7. All demons and devils are considered unique.

TURN ELEMENTAL

Prerequisite: Druid 8th level.

Benefit: This feat allows a druid to turn elementals just as clerics can turn undead. It becomes a Class Ability allowing the druids level to be added to the check. However, all attempts to turn such monsters are at a -7. All elementals are considered unique.

TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE

Prerequisites: Dex 15, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting.

Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not including natural weapons or unarmed strikes), you gain a +1 bonus to your AC.

When you are dodging or evading, this AC bonus increases to +2.

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING, IMPROVED

Prerequisite: Dex 15.

Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 1 and the one for your off hand lessens by 1. So attacks with a weapon in the primary hand is at -1, and attacks with the off-hand are at a -5.

WEAPON FINESSE

Prerequisite: Base to hit +1.

Benefit: With a melee weapon with an EV (encumbrance value) of 2 or less, rapier, or a whip, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its EV applies as a minus to your attack rolls.

WEAPON FOCUS

Choose one weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike, grapple, or, if applicable, a spell if you are a spellcaster as your weapon for purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different weapon.

WEAPON OF CHOICE

Benefit: You choice one weapon not on your approved weapons list and become proficient with it.

WEAPON SPECIALIZATION

Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, PC level 4th.

Benefit: You gain a +1bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

WIDEN SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spells area increase by 100%. A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spells actual level.

Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.

WISE

Benefit: You gain +1 on all Wisdom based saving throws.

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Wed Oct 04, 2006 11:41 am
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Mogrl

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Wow! I wouldn't call that a compromise, I'd call that "your still playing 3E"!

Granted they are toned down and such, so it is less power creep than full 3E.

I still suggest you give my approach a try. Granted my approach totally eliminates feats like those that add to saves, hp's, and skill checks, plus some others. However, most fo the ones combat oriented and spellcasting oriented are still available as posssible "maneuvers". Like the most common one I see the spellcaster doing is changing the energy type of their fireball to cold or electricity. TN 12+3(spell level to be altered, no increase in effective level), so they make a TN 15 check and voila! They have an ice ball, etc...

Cleave, the opponents are 5 HD, so TN 12+5=17. Make the roll you cleave.

Get an extra attack (because they are 6th level), opponent is 9 HD, so beat a TN12+9=21 and you get an additional attack roll. At 12th level they'll be allowed to try for a third.

Want to try and be first in the initiative? Enemies highest HD in the group is 10, so TN 12+10=22, beat it and you add +2 to your d10 roll.

No one has to keep track of lists, no one has to keep track of spending xp's to buy anything. Anyone can try to attempt them, just non-fighter types use a TN 18 (unless it is for spells or something their class does). Just limit them to one "maneuver" /3 class levels in one round, and only one of any type maneuver (except cleave) is allowed.

Cleave ends when they don't take the opponent down, which usually means one time. Great cleaves are rare.

It plays out pretty simple in my game. A lot easier than tracking lists and xp's spent.

Plus, point out to them that their character is more powerful in that all the feats you do allow are on their "list" of things they can do. IT is balanced, because guess what? All the NPC's/monsters can do them too! So it keeps your monster write-ups and conversion easy as well. Also when you convert/use 3E monsters any of their cool feats are something they can still do or have as part of being that monster. Plus be more powerful since like the players, they can attempt all the maneuvers you make available to them.

I hope you give it a try. I think you will find it much less of a headache, and still good fun.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Wed Oct 04, 2006 7:30 pm
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Red Cap
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Treebore,

I see what you are saying. I already attempted to show the gang that C&C is a lot like AD&D. If you want your PC to attempt something just go for it.

However, several have become too emeshed in 3.X and computer games over the years. They MUST have a listing of skills/feats that they can pick from to make thier character "unique." Perhaps in a year or two, they will see what I'm talking about. Until then, feats will be picked.

The thing that makes it a compromise for me is I don't have to keep track of feats. The player does. If they want a feat they have to spend xp to get it when they go up. They do the work, not me. Monsters and NPCs don't have to have that (unless I want to on the fly.) Someone wanting to play straight from the C&C Players Handbook can and they will advance faster in levels as other buy feats. I tried to make the feats progressively more burdensome to buy.

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Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:49 pm
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Mogrl

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Actually, one can do both. One can have a list of "feats" which can be earned, say, through constant roleplaying, magical items, and training... and the greater "do anything" variety. For example, in-game, the characters can "try" to pull off something like a cleave, or they can have the ability. If they have the ability (gained most likely by fighter-types, during intensive practice over the course of a few levels, let's say....3) it can be done, no roll needed except the obvious attack and kill roll. This means there is an advantage to having the "feat" as you no longer can fail it. It also allows the CK to implement only those which he feels are worthy of being "automatic" as others could remain permanent "try it and see" type things.

I understand the need for some players to have lists for what they can do... so, there's no reason they can't have the best of neither world.


Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:28 pm
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Mogrl

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That is too bad. That is part of the reason I used the 3E feats as the basis of my explanation to my players, they want "inspiration" on things their character can do they pull out the PH and read through them.

Hopefully it will take you less than a year or two to get them to drink from the C&C waters.

_________________
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.


Thu Oct 05, 2006 5:22 pm
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Red Cap
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Been there done that. "Got the tee-shirt!"

One of the "hold-outs" has already found the feats as not needed. You can read about his change of heart over on the thread I've been posting at Goodman Games' forums concerning my running of DCC #17-- Legacy of the Savage Kings. The other fellow will not be so easy. It was the idea of feats that won him to 3.X three years ago.

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Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:40 pm
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Skobbit

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Quote:
Treebore wrote:
Wow! I wouldn't call that a compromise, I'd call that "your still playing 3E"!



I respectfully disagree. This just allows a level of customization to characters who want it.

Still playing 3E means AoO's, feats, boosts, items and situation modifiers stacking or not, unwieldy rules to cover every possible type of action by squeezing them into a rule system which is often counter-intuitive and at odds with common sense, realism and/or cinematic spectacle.

Just adding a very basic list of feats does not 'mutate' C&C into something completely different. True, Cleave could be taken away and presented as a combat tactic for fighting classes, but most of the other feat adaptations seem sensible to me. Moreover, most of these are of the non-SIEGE engine like variety, so they provide options which aren't readily 'simulatable' by the basic C&C rules.

If they're having fun with them, where's the harm? As one player has already ditched the feats, the others may follow suit. And if not, they have more customized characters in a still vastly simplified and streamlined declination of the d20 system.

Seems like win/win to me.


Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:42 pm
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Maukling
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Quote:
mrswing wrote:
If they're having fun with them, where's the harm?



A most succinct and entirely accurate sentiment for any type of game. ^_^
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Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:53 pm
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Lore Drake

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Wow, I missed this one originally, but I kind of like this idea.

Buying Feats:

Feats can be purchased using experience points. The following chart lists the amount of experience needed to acquire a feat. The list of feats to purchase follows the chart. One feat may be purchased upon the PC earning enough experience points to go up a level. In lieu of taking the new level, the PC may expend the necessary experience points to purchase a feat (if enough experience points are available) and lowering the experience points the PC has, thus remaining at the current level. Please note the more feats a PC has, the more experience points it costs to purchase a new feat.

Number of Feats Experience to Expend

1 (free feat at first level) 0

2 2,000

3 4,000

4 6,000

5 9,000

6 12,000

7 25,000

8 50,000

9 75,000

10 100,000

11 120,000

12 130,000

13+ 150,000 per feat

My list of feats is somewhat smaller, but I like the idea of expending the XPs for the feat.
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Never throw rocks at a man with a Vorpal Sword!


Tue May 01, 2007 9:47 pm
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