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D&D 5th Edition Discussion 
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Lore Drake
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
DMSamuel wrote:
Omote wrote:
There is no dirt. Isn't adventuring suppossed to be icky and filled with enemies, and and swords, and scenes of battle?

For me it is.

However, they are focusing on the fantastical, high magic parts of the game rather than the gritty, realistically dirty parts that I would consider must be there to evoke the feel of adventure for me. This, I believe, is because they are focusing on the Forgotten Realms setting, which is so full with magic that if it popped people in Zimbabwe would have it on them.

FR is not to my taste specifically because of this. I like running games where the magic is scare and scary and the fights are dirty and cause problems. The adventurers live a hard scrabble life and every day is a struggle, and only a few of those days end with great rewards.

Forgotten Realms, by contrast, has at least one magic store in each town/village/city, mages are available throughout the world (and are well known), and adventuring is so lucrative (and easy) that "everyone's doing it!" That is the feeling that they are evoking with the art - clean, fantastical, abundant magic, powerful forces on each side.

Granted, there is some exaggeration in my description of FR, but this is how I honestly think of the setting and, well, it just isn't to my taste. Meh.

Havind said that, I like this art a crap-ton better than the huge sword, spiky armor, almost anime style of art that has permeated the game for the last 8-9 years.

I was done with FR when TSR stole the Oriental Adventures and Underdark from Greyhawk and ported them to Faerun. Lots of RL stuff at TSR affected those decisions, I know, but I was happy to place on Oerth all my adventures. I guess the positive side of that is that Greyhawk was spared a bleepton of angst-ridden rebellious drow warriors with two scimitars.

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Wed Aug 13, 2014 4:33 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Zudrak wrote:
I was done with FR when TSR stole the Oriental Adventures and Underdark from Greyhawk and ported them to Faerun. Lots of RL stuff at TSR affected those decisions, I know, but I was happy to place on Oerth all my adventures. I guess the positive side of that is that Greyhawk was spared a bleepton of angst-ridden rebellious drow warriors with two scimitars.


Ha! Amen to that. I still have my original Greyhawk folio set and it is quite well used and loved. I moved on to homebrewing my settings long ago, but Greyhawk and Mystara both have a special place in my heart.

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Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:11 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Treebore wrote:

I don't know, D., if the following link is representative of the interior art, I am going to disagree with you.

http://boingboing.net/2014/07/21/an-exclusive-look-at-the-new-d.html


I think the art is pretty good. I especially liked the wizard, she was in a different style. I like that a GROUP of adventurers were facing off with that dragon.
I am tired of that smeary oil-painty world of warcraft look, but aside from that it looks like D&D to me.

Omote has a point though, where's the damn dirt?

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Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:25 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Omote wrote:
TB, that is representative of THAT piece of art. Not all of the art is bad. In fact, all the artists in the new PHB clearly have talent. I'm just saying that, well perhaps I'm getting old. The art is so lackluster of anything gritty. There is no dirt. Isn't adventuring suppossed to be icky and filled with enemies, and and swords, and scenes of battle? The artwork is mostly muted, with lighter, more happy colors. It's just not taste of adventuring D&D at all. I think, D&D the brand has lot a lot of what made it insanely popular. That might be an old way of thinking, but it's not necessarily wrong.

~O


Ah, so your saying the artwork in and of itself isn't bad, just that it doesn't evoke gloomy, dangerous, mystery filled adventuring. Am I getting it right, now?

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Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:32 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Aside: I saw a preview somewhere of the new Warlock class, and it seems pretty groovy. makes pacts with outsiders, fey, or cthulhu type things to get spells and powers. finally, something like an Elric style magic!

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Wed Aug 13, 2014 7:42 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
I have the starter set and the Basic PDF, have only seen online skims and reviews by those who have early PHB's.

I concur with Piper that they have made a definite philosophical move towards the type of RPG I enjoy - 5e "feels" (such a loaded word...) like D&D again, though I am certainly in the camp that still says C&C did this more effectively and much more elegantly already. I already use house rules for "adjuncts" for my players that do a lot of the customization that 5e does for characters.

I like the adventure a lot - and my biggest interest lies in how much 5e material I can port into my C&C games, and it is very nice to see the full pages of "power" lists and board-gamy encounters gone. I have used a lot of the 3e era DCC mods and 5e looks like mods and adventures will be even easier than those to convert and play on the fly for me.

I tried playing in 4e games and just had a miserable time - hours of single combat engagements with very little role-playing. While I'll continue with C&C as my fantasy game of choice, I can see myself joining a 5e game somewhere again and having fun. I was intending to sign up for one of Chris Perkin's 5e games at Gamehole con in Madison WI this November, but the VIG registration took all those seats before us regular registrants can purchase tickets (though I feel a little warm and fuzzy that 3 of my 6 seats for my run of my Danovar's Desire up-graded game were also taken early by VIG registrants :) )

So, in sum, a lot to like about the new edition, doesn't streamline as elegantly as C&C for me, but I will likely be buying mods and material again that gets published for 5e by WotC, Goodman, Necromancer or Kobold Press.

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Wed Aug 13, 2014 9:40 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Omote, I had a chance to peruse D&D 5th yesterday. I found myself not liking most of the art. The artists are very talented, but some of it just wasn't my style. I'D have to go with PF's art over this. PF does great monsters, but their castle punk, wide-eyed demi-humans, etc. are another matter. I'm not crazy about PF's art overall, but I still favor PF to 5th. I remember not being particularly enamored of some of the D&D 2.5 art stylings (character classes in particular). Either way, I hope the new Monster Manual art is better than much of what I saw in the phb. All of that said, I'm good with the free pdf, and C&C is my D&D.


Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:10 am
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Greater Lore Drake

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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
One more thing. Flipping through phb 5th was like opening a comic book. The art either grabs me or it doesn't. In the case of D&D 5th, much of it didn't.


Thu Aug 14, 2014 7:15 am
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
I will probably be checking out 5E at Gen Con, just to see if it flies for me. It's definitely not going to replace C&C as my game of choice, but I admit that the idea of some form of 'back compatibility' has me intrigued. So far the art hasn't been a major detraction for me, but I haven't really looked as closely at it as some. Since my own work in WoP is going to be a little higher-magic than the base C&C style (while hopefully still retaining a bit of grittiness), I admit to being a little curious.

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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Art-wise I like the maps in the Lost Mine adventure - there they seem to be on par with the maps from Paizo, which have always been my primary interest in produced materials for PF.

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Thu Aug 14, 2014 1:40 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
While I like good art (subjective I know) and dislike crappy art, if a game's mechanics are good, the art isn't a deciding point for me. Unfortunately 5E couldn't shake the video game mentality. Reset button pushed when characters nap & sleep, insanely fast leveling, 50 hp characters being able to survive 90 hp of damage, et al. Without that junk, as they say, "It coulda been a contenda." But, they had to pander to the kiddies, munchkins and video game crowd.

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Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:49 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
I picked up the new PHB and Wolfgang & Steve Winter's "Hoard of the Dragonlord" today, so will be able to really look through it... couple of initial thoughts:

1. I can see mixed reactions to the art - it definitely seems to want to try and replicate a more 2nd ed feel, though it definitely is "lighter and happier" - I can definitely see the loss of "grit" here at times. To be honest it evokes a "Disney-esque" feeling to me. (Not necessarily bad in and of itself - I love Disney animation - but evokes a different tone.)

2. Rules-wise I still see it at as a definite step towards the philosophy that C&C has, and much of what I see I would like if I didn't already have C&C, BUT:

3. 2 things really jump out - the VERY FAST progression and the quick reset of HP in one 8-hour sleep period. "Hoard of the Dragonlord" looks cool, but it definitely says "can take adventures from 1st level to 7th or 8th upon completion," and it's a 94 page adventure path. Kill one 10 HP imp by yourself and you're 2/3 of the way from 1st to 2nd level... but at least it does look easier to die at 1st level again.

4. Had to keep Dragonborn didn't they....

Will delve deeper later - gotta get ready to run my C&C FR campaign in about 30 minutes, but reaction is still in the "C&C did it better and more elegantly in the last 10 years" but I can see myself playing this edition and having fun, and will definitely port good adventure material when I see it.

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Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:34 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
A couple of things I noticed that do "lessen" the "power game" effects:

The class structures are more in line with C&C in terms of extra attacks and the proficiencies add bonuses a lot more reasonably.

The cap on stats at 20 are much better.

The starting gold is REALLY limited, and treasure accumulation seems constricted as well, so purchasing/acquiring of bad-ass armor, weapons and magic items is far less than 3, 3.5, 4 or PF, at least mitigating the fast advance a little bit and placing the bulk of "gaining power" into character advancement - but it is still FAST...

EDIT: Eh, strike the part about starting gold - just reading deeper and classes and backgrounds come with inherent armor & weapons....

Still, liking much of what I am reading, just a couple of things that I don't.... won't supplant C&C by any means, but overall a lot I like.

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Sun Aug 17, 2014 5:44 am
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
I did just read a comment from Mearls about the forth-coming DMG containing "scalable" xp progression tables, including ones to allow the progression to "slow to a 1e frame." If true, that would be good.

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Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:41 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
After going through he Player & DM material it is clear that 5e is a good game to introduce children to FRPG games.

Much of the rule "fudging" I did when playing with my young children (8-10 yr old) has been incorporated as standard rules. Revert those rules (for teen - adult play) and you get a game not as good as C&C.

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Sun Aug 17, 2014 7:52 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Arduin wrote:
After going through he Player & DM material it is clear that 5e is a good game to introduce children to FRPG games.

Much of the rule "fudging" I did when playing with my young children (8-10 yr old) has been incorporated as standard rules. Revert those rules (for teen - adult play) and you get a game not as good as C&C.


I would definitely agree here - the 5e Starter set does offer a very "easy to run" experience for younger/new players, but it is completely "out of the box" and doesn't teach the game. The basic rules offer a little bit of a bridge to the full PHB, but 5e is somewhat fiddly and wonky I have found in my perusal thus far.

To be fair, I still think C&C also needs a Basic edition to introduce young players, especially the actual use and philosophy of the SIEGE engine - I find even experienced players from both OSR and later D&D/PF have a hard time wrapping their head around the concept of "you can try almost any action" if there isn't some specific rule that covers it.

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Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:13 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Yeah, when I have to teach people they "can do anything" in C&C I also have to give them about half a dozen examples for them to "see" what I mean, then they are like, "Really?!? Awesome!!". Then my long term players seem to really like being able to earn feat/advantages/whatever you wish to call them through how they actually play their character, rather than at fixed levels.

I won't have the PH for a couple of days yet, but going by what I saw throughout all the play tests, the free PDF's, and the Starter set, D&D is still not going to be better than C&C for me. The good news is, though, that I think I will actually like it as an RPG in its own right, so will be willing to put it in my "actually play it when I can" rotation of RPG's. So while I thought 3E and 4E were decent games, I lost the desire with 3E, and never had the desire with 4E, to try to play them after we played 4E for a couple of months. Which was fine, its not like I rely on D&D for all my gaming, I have lots of others, and people to play them with.

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Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:25 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
seskis281 wrote:
the 5e Starter set does offer a very "easy to run" experience for younger/new players, but it is completely "out of the box" and doesn't teach the game.


The 5e free DMG pdf starts teaching the game as I outlined. Only thing missing is telling the DM what snacks to have available for the PC's in the Dungeon's designated rest areas. I credit that one omission to not knowing what snack food companies exist in any given GM's world. :lol:

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Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:51 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
seskis281 wrote:
1. I can see mixed reactions to the art - it definitely seems to want to try and replicate a more 2nd ed feel, though it definitely is "lighter and happier" - I can definitely see the loss of "grit" here at times. To be honest it evokes a "Disney-esque" feeling to me. (Not necessarily bad in and of itself - I love Disney animation - but evokes a different tone.)


Expanding on my own quote above as I've spent more time and gone back to my shelf to look through earlier art...

I'd revise my "disney-esque" comment because it's not really that, though there is a trend that the halflings and gnomes and other short characters are a bit in the "happy hobbit" mode. I think, looking elsewhere, the lack of difference between the halfling and gnome is striking visually and the halfling looks like a kender from DL but with an oversized head. That halfling art has definitely evoked the most negative reactions I've seen elsewhere.

I said the PHB evokes the feel of 2nd, and going back and looking at the 2nd ed. PHB and other books I'd amend slightly to say it most certainly is replicating the feel of later 1e (Unearthed Arcana) through early 2e. The full plates have a definitive "Elmore-esque," or "Elmore-light" feel. I think that was likely one of the intentional "appeals to earlier players" decisions, though like all subjective reactions to art styles the choice will elicit very mixed responses. On the whole, my own reaction isn't bad to the art (and I do like the iconic cover), but it's neither "yay!" nor "meh.." for me (other than the really bad halfling....)

8-)

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Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:48 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Actually I came up with an even simpler way to define the art:

It's like late 1e early 2e Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms art, but only if people were a lot happier to live in those worlds.

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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Had the PHB for a few days.

1. The Art. Not a fan of it. The Halfling looks like a fat-headed idiot with tiny feet and the gnome looks like a halfling. And the Gnome doesn't match the "wild hair" description. I would have like to have seen more art examples, not sure why we only have on picture of race or class when there was plenty of room to give more. Each opening for class gives 3 descriptions of that class - a big missed opportunity to show these in images. Each opening of a race has an entry from a D&D novel, again a missed opportunity. Personally, I don't see the "same old fantasy tropes" as a problem, but Paizo and WOTC does (I guess), but making a half-orc paladin while applaud their "against the grain" I find it annoying, would have rather seen the Paladin in hell image. The inquisitor class iconic for Paizo is the same, I was hoping for the Solomon Kane type, but I get this weird half-orc as well. Thing is I'm a fan of the half-orc, especially for C&C as a fighter, it does some serious havoc if you get an 18 or 19 strength, but I think the art here fails.

2. Like the classes and each has different paths you choose at 3rd level. Gives you an idea of how the class works and kicks in the options. Haven't really played with prestige classes, but I do like this idea. It's kind of a 4e thing.

3. Advantage and Disadvantages. Great mechanic, as Greyhawk Grognard said (IIRC), why didn't someone think of this years ago.

4. Warlock options are pretty cool with the Patron Stuff.

5. All the paths and options will create a ton of future books, but I'm OK with that.

6. Pretty Heroic, with the 18-19 giving you a +4

7. Like the background stuff, similar to Paizo's Pathfinder Backgrounds.

8. Druids aren't pure nature worshipers they can worship various gods.

9. Lots of options for clerics (and druids) in terms of Deities. Includes Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Eberron, and Dragon Lance and Nonhuman Deities. Also includes historical Greek, Egyptian, Celtic and Norse. Sadly, once again, no monotheistic stuff. IHMO, that was a missed opportunity in terms of diversity here.

10.


Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:02 am
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
While I still think that D&D's attempts to convince everyone that halflings ≠ hobbits is a mistake, this latest iterations is better than what was in 3rd and 4th editions, which seemed like they had decided that halflings + kender. I tend to prefer my halflings hobbity, so moving closer to that direction I see as an improvement. Now, if only they would take off their shoes...

Advantage vs. Disadvantage is wonderfully simple as a rule-set and one that I think is heads above the fiddly bits of 4th edition. We had a running joke about reminding people to add plus one to damage...repeatedly in 4th edition. The new system moves to something much easier to remember to apply.

I still prefer C&C as a system of choice, but my current group of gamers (aside from my brother) really seems to prefer playing whatever D&D system is current. At least this new edition will be a bit less clunky than 4th edition. However, I keep bringing my latest C&C acquisitions to our gaming group to show off in the hope of convincing them to try it out.


Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:34 pm
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Somebody mentioned C&C needing a basic set. As much as a retro boxed set would be cool, I think the game is easy enough for younger folks. Outside of some detailed spell descriptions here and there, etc., the Siege Engine is fairly simple already. That's another great thing about C&C.


Tue Aug 19, 2014 12:40 am
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
tylermo wrote:
Somebody mentioned C&C needing a basic set. As much as a retro boxed set would be cool, I think the game is easy enough for younger folks. Outside of some detailed spell descriptions here and there, etc., the Siege Engine is fairly simple already. That's another great thing about C&C.


I agree. My kids used AD&D 2nd Ed PHB just fine. C&C PHB is easier than that book was.

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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
I brought it up on a neighboring thread, and I'd still argue for the need -

We as veterans may see C&C as simple and easy to access, and indeed our own kids (if they game) have veteran tutors to guide them. The purpose of a basic edition (and doesn't have to be boxed - could be 2 shorter softcovers, a players basic guide and a DM's basic guide) would be to have an intro out there that the younger player with no adult connection to RPGs can pick up and go "cool, I want to try this!"

When I started gaming it was because of the Holmes basic - my reaction to the AD&D PHB was "that's real complicated" (I was 10).

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Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:10 am
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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
John, I agree with some of your points, but I forgot to mention one thing earlier. In 2014, how much of a younger audience (9-14 or so, let's say) is there for traditional roleplaying games (basic boxes or hardcover books)? Don't get me wrong (this is annecdotal), I have seen a small number of upper teens, as well as a surprising number of 20-somethings playing Pathfinder, or even in my own C&C store demos. However, I'm not sure that most of those age ranges will naturally gravitate toward pen and paper rpg's, unless they have access to a game store. The younger kids might be more impressionable, but how are they going to find out about basic sets and other rpg's? I don't see Paizo PF, or even Hasbro-owned Dungeons and Dragons in Walmart, Target, Toys r' Us, etc. Either way, I'd gladly snap up one of these proposed C&C basic sets. I'd also put A0 The Rising Knight, or some other good starter in the set. On a side note, it's my personal quest to get A0 in more hands than B2 Keep on the Borderlands. ;)


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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
seskis281 wrote:
When I started gaming it was because of the Holmes basic - my reaction to the AD&D PHB was "that's real complicated" (I was 10).


At age 10 how did you find out about Holmes? They weren't in regular toy stores at the time...

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Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Arduin wrote:
seskis281 wrote:
When I started gaming it was because of the Holmes basic - my reaction to the AD&D PHB was "that's real complicated" (I was 10).


At age 10 how did you find out about Holmes? They weren't in regular toy stores at the time...


It was 1979 and my school counselor actually introduced my brother and I to Holmes with their boxed set (it was out in 77 I think), and we bought our own, I think, at our local bookstore just after. I know I bought the original Greyhawk portfolio and Moldvay/Cook about a year and a half later in 1981, the original DMG in whatever printing it was in in that same year too (didn't play AD&D really, but wanted all those cool tables and items lists :) )

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John "Sir Seskis" Wright

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Lands of Ilshara: http://johnwright281.tripod.com


Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:48 am
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Greater Lore Drake
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Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Posts: 4045
Location: Granite quarry
Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
seskis281 wrote:
It was 1979 and my school counselor actually introduced my brother and I to Holmes with their boxed set (it was out in 77 I think), and we bought our own, I think, at our local bookstore just after. I know I bought the original Greyhawk portfolio and Moldvay/Cook about a year and a half later in 1981, the original DMG in whatever printing it was in in that same year too (didn't play AD&D really, but wanted all those cool tables and items lists :) )


Cool! Schools changed since I was in. Counselors for 10 year olds! Amazing stuff.

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Tue Aug 19, 2014 1:56 am
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Greater Lore Drake

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 7:00 am
Posts: 2579
Post Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion
Not sure. Holmes might have been 78. Doesn't really matter. ;) I can relate to the school exposure story. It was a new friend of mine in 6th grade who introduced me to D&D, as well as other rpg's. However, it was a 10th grade geometry teacher who got some of my friends and i hooked on Avalon Hill war games, particularly Circus Maximus. This was intially in the 86-87 school year, then continued through 89 for sure. There was a small room off to the side of the main classroom. He kept 3-5 games in their at any time. He even had a magnetized Afrika Korps that was propped up against the chalk board. We all mainly played before and after school each day, but once or twice a year he was given permission to open the classroom on a Saturday. He'd lay out all of the games (Circus Maximus, Gladiator, D-Day, Wood Ships and Iron Men, etc.) on the tables. Those were the days. My teacher moved off in the late 90's I think. I've tracked down his number, and I'm hoping to get some of us together for Circus Max at least.


Tue Aug 19, 2014 2:57 am
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