Troll Lord Games

DMSamuel,

Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts on D&D 5th ed. based upon your experience.

I find the Advantage/Disadvantage game mechanic interesting, although I have decided not to use it in my C&C house rules.

I also liked the brief list of skills.


JLL

Samuel, thanks so much!

Thanks for the writeup, Samuel. An enjoyable read

I don't know if this is true, as I do not have the Starter Set myself yet- the set does NOT contain rules for character creation. WTF!?! A starter set, for beginners, and it doesn't have a section to make your own characters?! Huh?!
Yeah, I know there are 5 pregens. Yeah I know you can get "BASIC" pdf online. But a starter set for new players should have character creation.
WOTC blunder.
The rulebook should have been 64 pages & the adventure 32 pages.

BLOOD AXE wrote:I don't know if this is true, as I do not have the Starter Set myself yet- the set does NOT contain rules for character creation. WTF!?! A starter set, for beginners, and it doesn't have a section to make your own characters?! Huh?!
Yeah, I know there are 5 pregens. Yeah I know you can get "BASIC" pdf online. But a starter set for new players should have character creation.
WOTC blunder.
The rulebook should have been 64 pages & the adventure 32 pages.

I agree with the sentiment of this, and I wish they would have done that as well. But I think the problem is one of marketing focus.

They really have made the starter set for DMs, not for players.

DMs have to pay to get material, while the focus on players will be to give them the free pdf which does include chargen, to hook them into the game. Then they expect players to buy the PHB if they want more options than Cleric/Fighter/Wizard/Thief and Elf/Human/Dwarf/Halfling.

Thanks for the reply. Not a smart move by WOTC. A better rulebook, but smaller adventure would have been better. If they want their own character other than the pregens, its a big turn-off for new players right from the start.
New Guy:" I want to play a Dwarf Fighter."
DM: " No, sorry. You have to download the pdf of Basic or buy the Players handbook."
New Guy: " Huh? I thought this was the starter set?"




Otherwise , looks like a good starter set. I'll buy it anyway, as its only $20. Are the books a bit flimsy? They don't look as solid as my old Moldvay Basic book. Its still solid after all these years.

You might be overlooking the fact that D&D Basic covers this, and is free.

Relaxo wrote:You might be overlooking the fact that D&D Basic covers this, and is free.

No, I haven't, check my other post.

My point is that a Starter set should be for new players. You shouldn't have to go to the internet later and download a free pdf.
Did any other D&D basic set NOT have character creation? Not that I know of and Ive been playing since the Moldvay set. (Maybe 4th- but I never used that)
Having a 64 page adventure, but not having character creation in a starter set is a good idea??

BLOOD AXE wrote:

Relaxo wrote:You might be overlooking the fact that D&D Basic covers this, and is free.

No, I haven't, check my other post.

My point is that a Starter set should be for new players. You shouldn't have to go to the internet later and download a free pdf.
Did any other D&D basic set NOT have character creation? No.

It is EXTREMELY odd to sell a Starter Kit for an RPG that has no Char Gen material. It might in fact be unprecedented in that regard.

I've never seen that omission in any other comparable item for sale.

Arduin wrote:

BLOOD AXE wrote:

Relaxo wrote:You might be overlooking the fact that D&D Basic covers this, and is free.

No, I haven't, check my other post.

My point is that a Starter set should be for new players. You shouldn't have to go to the internet later and download a free pdf.
Did any other D&D basic set NOT have character creation? No.

It is EXTREMELY odd to sell a Starter Kit for an RPG that has no Char Gen material. It might in fact be unprecedented in that regard.

I've never seen that omission in any other comparable item for sale.

Right. I totally agree. Its just odd for a starter set aimed at new players.

It would have been good to have the basic classes & races in brief to build your own character.
Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling.
Fighter, Magic-User, Cleric, Thief.

There would still be plenty to put in that big fat 320 page Players Handbook in August.

Is there anything at all in the starter set about being able to place different race/class combos?

I bought the starter box on a whim. Personally, C&C has been my D&D-type fantasy game for a long time. As for Next, I skimmed through the first download, and also played one session in September of last year. It was okay, but I probably wasn't going to run it. Either way, I didn't have a handy means of downloading the free pdf yet, and a local store had the starter. I just wanted to read through it. If I had realized there wasn't info about the basic classes and races, I wouldn't have bought it. I suppose the adventure (despite not having a cardstock cover), and the dice are worth 15 dollars at least. Not sure if I would use the adventure anytime soon (for C&C), because I've been running/will be running They Call Him Guff, a bit of Dark Journey, Lure of Delusion, Wizard's Tower, the C series, etc. Anyway, should have just gone with the free pdf. I let 20 bucks burn a hole in my pocket. Haha

tylermo wrote: Either way, I didn't have a handy means of downloading the free pdf yet, and a local store had the starter. I just wanted to read through it. If I had realized there wasn't info about the basic classes and races, I wouldn't have bought it.

THIS!

A 64 page adventure with 5 pregens and no way to make your own character in a "starter set". Stupid decision.
Not everyone can or wants to go and download a pdf. I prefer the dead tree version. Maybe a softcover printed version of basic could be sold for $20.

You know, I am not sure why they went that direction either. But at any rate, I do have the Basic PDF, printed and comb bound, and the starter set, according to Amazon, is in transit to my house as I type. For 12.95 on Amazon with free shipping, I know I am getting a big box with a big adventure in it, and a scanty rulebook to pass around the table. According to a video interview with some dudes at Wotc, the box was intentionally oversized to allow you to throw a bunch of campaign stuff in it for storage, and the adventure is actually supposed to be pretty cool. I am not a fan of FR by any stretch but this looks like something you can plop down anywhere.

Despite the lackluster nature of the starter set, I think that the usual Wotc image of "greedy corporate giant" with it's million splat books needed to play the game has definitely been improved; making the new Basic rules set available for free is an awesome thing. Are they now redeemed in my eyes? No....but it is a hell of a start in my humble opinion. I think they are trying hard to undo some of the negative press that they have received over the last several years (all deserved in my opinion), and I think it is refreshing to see the change, both in marketing and their reversion to a rules-light approach that focuses on storytelling.

It seems that there is going to be quite a bit of game options coming in the PHB and DMG, to tweak the game toward one edition or another. Can this truly bring all the splintered "edition wars" casualties back to D&D? I guess we will see. Unfortunately for Wotc, the fan base they lost went to Pathfinder, C&C, and other games...and are still pretty happy there. So Wotc needs to pull out some big guns to get even a modest percentage back to D&D as their main game.

I play a lot of other systems, but when I want a d20 "D&D" style game, I always come back to C&C.

BLOOD AXE wrote: No, I haven't, check my other post.

oh my bad.

Relaxo wrote:

BLOOD AXE wrote: No, I haven't, check my other post.

oh my bad.

No big deal. I know you were trust trying to help.

Piperdog wrote:You know, I am not sure why they went that direction either. But at any rate, I do have the Basic PDF, printed and comb bound, and the starter set, according to Amazon, is in transit to my house as I type. For 12.95 on Amazon with free shipping, I know I am getting a big box with a big adventure in it, and a scanty rulebook to pass around the table. According to a video interview with some dudes at Wotc, the box was intentionally oversized to allow you to throw a bunch of campaign stuff in it for storage, and the adventure is actually supposed to be pretty cool. I am not a fan of FR by any stretch but this looks like something you can plop down anywhere.

Despite the lackluster nature of the starter set, I think that the usual Wotc image of "greedy corporate giant" with it's million splat books needed to play the game has definitely been improved; making the new Basic rules set available for free is an awesome thing. Are they now redeemed in my eyes? No....but it is a hell of a start in my humble opinion. I think they are trying hard to undo some of the negative press that they have received over the last several years (all deserved in my opinion), and I think it is refreshing to see the change, both in marketing and their reversion to a rules-light approach that focuses on storytelling.

It seems that there is going to be quite a bit of game options coming in the PHB and DMG, to tweak the game toward one edition or another. Can this truly bring all the splintered "edition wars" casualties back to D&D? I guess we will see. Unfortunately for Wotc, the fan base they lost went to Pathfinder, C&C, and other games...and are still pretty happy there. So Wotc needs to pull out some big guns to get even a modest percentage back to D&D as their main game.

I play a lot of other systems, but when I want a d20 "D&D" style game, I always come back to C&C.

You just won the thread.

I'll second that!

Glad to hear it runs fast…4e’s bogged-down combats really damaged the game for me.

Reading through the PHB, I’m digging it so far. The art is solid. But I have to say, 5e really seems to have drawn from all the editions – I can see bits of 1e, 2e (the backgrounds feel almost like kits to me), 3e, and even a few bits of 4e. I’m waiting to pass judgment until I actually run it, though. ut I think it’s going to be fun to play. It’s not quite as streamlined as I would’ve liked, but I’ll take it over 4e any day.

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:Glad to hear it runs fast…4e’s bogged-down combats really damaged the game for me.

Reading through the PHB, I’m digging it so far. The art is solid. But I have to say, 5e really seems to have drawn from all the editions – I can see bits of 1e, 2e (the backgrounds feel almost like kits to me), 3e, and even a few bits of 4e. I’m waiting to pass judgment until I actually run it, though. ut I think it’s going to be fun to play. It’s not quite as streamlined as I would’ve liked, but I’ll take it over 4e any day.

Is the book released now? I thought it wasn't out until the 19th? I've been reading the free basic download version, but didn't see any art in there.

dachda wrote:

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:Glad to hear it runs fast…4e’s bogged-down combats really damaged the game for me.

Reading through the PHB, I’m digging it so far. The art is solid. But I have to say, 5e really seems to have drawn from all the editions – I can see bits of 1e, 2e (the backgrounds feel almost like kits to me), 3e, and even a few bits of 4e. I’m waiting to pass judgment until I actually run it, though. ut I think it’s going to be fun to play. It’s not quite as streamlined as I would’ve liked, but I’ll take it over 4e any day.

Is the book released now? I thought it wasn't out until the 19th? I've been reading the free basic download version, but didn't see any art in there.

I saw 2 reviews of the released PHB. It was a few days ago. As expected, high production value book.

dachda wrote:

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:Glad to hear it runs fast…4e’s bogged-down combats really damaged the game for me.

Reading through the PHB, I’m digging it so far. The art is solid. But I have to say, 5e really seems to have drawn from all the editions – I can see bits of 1e, 2e (the backgrounds feel almost like kits to me), 3e, and even a few bits of 4e. I’m waiting to pass judgment until I actually run it, though. ut I think it’s going to be fun to play. It’s not quite as streamlined as I would’ve liked, but I’ll take it over 4e any day.

Is the book released now? I thought it wasn't out until the 19th? I've been reading the free basic download version, but didn't see any art in there.

The cool kids have it. I saw a copy on Saturday. I was too busy running my C&C game to look at it, but my players looked it over.

Amazon should deliver mine tomorrow, and yes, its been out since about the middle of last week.

I don't have a lot of interest in this product, but I did read 30-40% of the Basic Rules, just enough to get a feel for 5E. There is some of it that is neat, and some that I'd rather stick to old-school or C&C for. I didn't hate it like I did 4E.

Just this evening, I paged through the full 5E PHB at the good ole' FLGS.

What a pile of garbage. That look looks like a total piece of shit. The artwok is all soft and fuzzy-warm feeling. What the hell is with the big fat heads on the dwarves, gnomes, halflings?! Oh god crap. I was nauseated halfway through just by the artwork. Sure, there was a piece or two by Wayne Reynolds who is pretty good, but the rest, GAG ME WITH A PITCHFORK!

Honestly, the 5E PHB reminds me of a pastel, watered down, GOT NO BALLS, froo-froo art. I hate it with the fury of ten-thousand suns. Y'all can have it. When I saw the Jason Walton art for the new C&C Black Box for the first time I thought "now THAT is the sort of fantasy RPG art I am looking for!"

Nope. Crap. Or at the very least, use the Basic, no-art version.

~O

Our FLGS got the products early as thanks for all the Magic: The Gathering events they do. Which I have to say is pretty cool of Wizards to do.

dachda wrote:
Is the book released now? I thought it wasn't out until the 19th? I've been reading the free basic download version, but didn't see any art in there.

I had always heard the 19th, with rumored early availability at GenCon. It'll be awhile, if at all for me.

tylermo wrote:I had always heard the 19th, with rumored early availability at GenCon. It'll be awhile, if at all for me.

The 19th is the official release day - stores that are in the Wizard's Play Network (that is, stores that hold Magic: The Gathering tournaments and host D&D Encounters games) get the product 10-12 days early.

It is for this reason that Amazon sends their pre-orders out such that they arrive on the day the game is released, rather than early - because Amazon is not a premier store (the designation WotC gives those stores that qualify for early release products).

I have the PHB on order - I'll also get the Monster manual, I'm sure. I am not sure if I will bother with the DMG - it is, apparently, meant to be filled with all of the optional rules that they didn't add to the game, but which are available to add on (such as tactical grid-based combat, I hear), plus some advice on how to add or take away parts of the game you may not want in your campaign. I'm on the fence about the DMG - probably nothing in there that I will want since it will either add complexity or make combat more 4e-like, but since I co-host and edit The Tome Show, I'll probably get it so that I can review it for the show.

Omote wrote:I don't have a lot of interest in this product, but I did read 30-40% of the Basic Rules, just enough to get a feel for 5E. There is some of it that is neat, and some that I'd rather stick to old-school or C&C for. I didn't hate it like I did 4E.

Just this evening, I paged through the full 5E PHB at the good ole' FLGS.

What a pile of garbage. That look looks like a total piece of shit. The artwok is all soft and fuzzy-warm feeling. What the hell is with the big fat heads on the dwarves, gnomes, halflings?! Oh god crap. I was nauseated halfway through just by the artwork. Sure, there was a piece or two by Wayne Reynolds who is pretty good, but the rest, GAG ME WITH A PITCHFORK!

Honestly, the 5E PHB reminds me of a pastel, watered down, GOT NO BALLS, froo-froo art. I hate it with the fury of ten-thousand suns. Y'all can have it. When I saw the Jason Walton art for the new C&C Black Box for the first time I thought "now THAT is the sort of fantasy RPG art I am looking for!"

Nope. Crap. Or at the very least, use the Basic, no-art version.

~O

I don't know, D., if the following link is representative of the interior art, I am going to disagree with you.

http://boingboing.net/2014/07/21/an-exc ... new-d.html

None of them were horrible, and a few were pretty good actually. I particularly liked the one with the three adventurers facing the dragon.

TB, that is representative of THAT piece of art. Not all of the art is bad. In fact, all the artists in the new PHB clearly have talent. I'm just saying that, well perhaps I'm getting old. The art is so lackluster of anything gritty. There is no dirt. Isn't adventuring suppossed to be icky and filled with enemies, and and swords, and scenes of battle? The artwork is mostly muted, with lighter, more happy colors. It's just not taste of adventuring D&D at all. I think, D&D the brand has lot a lot of what made it insanely popular. That might be an old way of thinking, but it's not necessarily wrong.

~O

Omote wrote:There is no dirt. Isn't adventuring suppossed to be icky and filled with enemies, and and swords, and scenes of battle?

For me it is.

However, they are focusing on the fantastical, high magic parts of the game rather than the gritty, realistically dirty parts that I would consider must be there to evoke the feel of adventure for me. This, I believe, is because they are focusing on the Forgotten Realms setting, which is so full with magic that if it popped people in Zimbabwe would have it on them.

FR is not to my taste specifically because of this. I like running games where the magic is scare and scary and the fights are dirty and cause problems. The adventurers live a hard scrabble life and every day is a struggle, and only a few of those days end with great rewards.

Forgotten Realms, by contrast, has at least one magic store in each town/village/city, mages are available throughout the world (and are well known), and adventuring is so lucrative (and easy) that "everyone's doing it!" That is the feeling that they are evoking with the art - clean, fantastical, abundant magic, powerful forces on each side.

Granted, there is some exaggeration in my description of FR, but this is how I honestly think of the setting and, well, it just isn't to my taste. Meh.

Havind said that, I like this art a crap-ton better than the huge sword, spiky armor, almost anime style of art that has permeated the game for the last 8-9 years.