D&D 5th Edition Discussion

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Zudrak »

BLOOD AXE wrote:No offense given or taken. Its all about fun.
Well said. I think this, what the hobby is about, is missed too often.

No one is forcing anyone else to play an edition (or game, for that matter) that they don't like. And what happens at one person's gaming table has no bearing on anyone else's gaming table. I would much rather have a "video game vs. tabletop game" Internet forum battle than any sort of "edition war."
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

Hahahah!

"In a hole in the ground there lived a Grippli...."
Zudrak wrote:Until the much-ignored and better-than-halflings race I like to play are considered a core race, I will not support D&D.

That would be the Grippli. Believe it or not.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Rigon »

After reading the 5e Basic rules and looking through the PHB, I can say that I'm not a big fan of the power level of 5e. There are some good ideas and nifty mechanics, but overall, I think that most of it can be done more elegantly and simply with SIEGE checks and good roleplaying without the power influx. I'll give it a try later one when Tree runs it after all the books are out, but I'm definitely sticking with C&C as my game of choice.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by seskis281 »

Well Mona and I are registered for Gamehole Con in Nov. in Madison WI, and we're both going to play in a 5th Edition D&D Experience game "Secrets of Sokol Keep" on Saturday night and I am doing another one earlier that day, "The Scroll Thief" at the same time Mona is doing the Dead Game Society's Cthulu Sesame Street :) - so I'll be able to try things out in play. Was hoping to get into one of the Chris Perkins-run 5e games, but those seats were all gone before general registration opened so it'll be with some other DDEX DM. Come Nov. I'll relay how it goes.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by slimykuotoan »

Sooo, I GMed my first D&D Next game the o'er day.

And...

Something happened I really, really didn't expect.

I... felt... claustrophobic.

Yep, I hadn't realized even subconsciously to what degree the flexibility o' C&C's SIEGE mechanic had really added to my games.

I guess I was really spoiled by C&C and didn't know it.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Buttmonkey »

I'm looking forward to playing 5E. There's a local convention coming up in October that should give me the opportunity.

Not sure if I mentioned this upthread, but I really hate the artwork depicting shorties. The Halfling illustration in the race descriptions is particularly painful. When I compare that to the classic paladin in Hell illustration from the 1E PHB, I wonder what the hell they were thinking over at WotC.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Zudrak »

Buttmonkey wrote:I'm looking forward to playing 5E. There's a local convention coming up in October that should give me the opportunity.

Not sure if I mentioned this upthread, but I really hate the artwork depicting shorties. The Halfling illustration in the race descriptions is particularly painful. When I compare that to the classic paladin in Hell illustration from the 1E PHB, I wonder what the hell they were thinking over at WotC.
I dunno, but I am reminded of the old quote, "The fish stinketh from the head." I won't touch 5e. I downloaded the free PDF, read it, and concluded that it is not for me.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Treebore »

Zudrak wrote:I downloaded the free PDF, read it, and concluded that it is not for me.
Yeah, I am pretty darn sure "its not for me" either, in the sense that it will become my new "go to" game for D&D style play. Its still not as simple and elegant as running a game with the SIEGE engine, nor is it easily cross compatible with the other editions like C&C is. I'm just hoping, that once I run it, I will actually like it enough to want to at least be a player. Which I cannot say about 3E or 4E, or Pathfinder. I have zero motivation to want to play any of them. I definitely won't run it, unless its the core books only. Which is only true for 3E/Pathfinder. While I had fun playing with the people when I tried out 4E, I have not missed playing it, even a little bit.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Rigon »

slimykuotoan wrote:Sooo, I GMed my first D&D Next game the o'er day.

And...

Something happened I really, really didn't expect.

I... felt... claustrophobic.

Yep, I hadn't realized even subconsciously to what degree the flexibility o' C&C's SIEGE mechanic had really added to my games.

I guess I was really spoiled by C&C and didn't know it.
I think that most people who are C&Cers will feel restricted when they play/run 5e, but for people coming from 3.x/PF or 4e will find it liberating. Just goes to show the differences between those types of games. Not that they're bad, just different.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Arduin »

5th is definitely better than 4th (which wasn't really D&D). But, in C&C you can give me a "zero level" shield bearer to play and I'd have fun. Because the system is flexible enough to allow for that.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by tylermo »

As stated before, my only play experience with D&D 5 was one playtest session in Sept of last year. That has changed since then. A local gm has been running it for two weeks, and a slot came open. I made a 3rd level barbarian. The session was riddled with too many breaks and a food run. I made a couple of savings throws and some combat rolls, as well as using my rage ability. The party's halfling rogue scored some crazy-ass critical on an ogre, as well. Not too much other exposure to the system otherwise. Didn't seem overly difficult at this point, but there's an significant power increase over C&C. Too early to say, but C&C seems to do things even easier. I guess I'll be playing more sessions each week, provided there aren't four unnecessary and lengthy breaks, etc.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by slimykuotoan »

Rigon wrote:I think that most people who are C&Cers will feel restricted when they play/run 5e, but for people coming from 3.x/PF or 4e will find it liberating. Just goes to show the differences between those types of games. Not that they're bad, just different.

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Agreed
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Rigon »

slimykuotoan wrote:
Rigon wrote:I think that most people who are C&Cers will feel restricted when they play/run 5e, but for people coming from 3.x/PF or 4e will find it liberating. Just goes to show the differences between those types of games. Not that they're bad, just different.

R-
Agreed
Of course you do. I speak with the wisdom of the middle aged. ;)

And I should amend that statement from C&Cers to OSR. Since most OSRs are relatively rules lite and encourages creative play over "builds".

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

After running 4e for years (while pining away for C&C, which I could never sell the group on), this very much. Though there are still parts of 4e in the game (fortunately minimal), 5e looks like it’s going to feel like freedom.

Sadly, I don’t think D&D is going to ever get away from the concept of builds. People will be min-maxing the axis of Race-Class-Backgrounds. Just play a gnome fighter cause you think it’s a cool idea…
Rigon wrote: I think that most people who are C&Cers will feel restricted when they play/run 5e, but for people coming from 3.x/PF or 4e will find it liberating. Just goes to show the differences between those types of games. Not that they're bad, just different.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

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Arduin wrote:5th is definitely better than 4th (which wasn't really D&D). But, in C&C you can give me a "zero level" shield bearer to play and I'd have fun. Because the system is flexible enough to allow for that.
Amen. Give me a linkboy and/or give me death!
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Arduin »

Zudrak wrote:
Arduin wrote:5th is definitely better than 4th (which wasn't really D&D). But, in C&C you can give me a "zero level" shield bearer to play and I'd have fun. Because the system is flexible enough to allow for that.
Amen. Give me a linkboy and/or give me death!

Might be a neat way to bring a new player into a low level game. Let them decide after a few sessions what PC they want to apprentice under (and thus what class they will be)...
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Zudrak »

Arduin wrote:
Zudrak wrote:
Arduin wrote:5th is definitely better than 4th (which wasn't really D&D). But, in C&C you can give me a "zero level" shield bearer to play and I'd have fun. Because the system is flexible enough to allow for that.
Amen. Give me a linkboy and/or give me death!

Might be a neat way to bring a new player into a low level game. Let them decide after a few sessions what PC they want to apprentice under (and thus what class they will be)...
Indeed! I did that once in high school with the Greyhawk Adventures 0-level rules, IIRC. I may be misremembering the rules used, but it was fun having a cousin introduced to AD&D that way.
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"Rules not understood should have appropriate questions directed to the publisher; disputes with the Dungeon Master are another matter entirely. THE REFEREE IS THE FINAL ARBITER OF ALL AFFAIRS OF HIS OR HER CAMPAIGN."
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by seskis281 »

I do find myself, reading the new 5th PHB, consistently thinking "the SIEGE mechanic can handle all that much more simply."

The "power" scaling doesn't bother me as much with 5e, because it is definitely nerfed compared to 3.5, PF or 4e, and my own home C&C games tend to "power up" between levels 6 and 10 - I use character adjuncts that are tailored to individual characters and are like feats, I use Hero and Luck points, and in most games our group's parties tend to accumulate a lot of wealth and thus have access in big cities to magic items. PCs still die, and true res spells are sometimes needed... even with all their might there is always something as bad ass or better out there, and usually it's their very success as adventurers that attract interest in the group's services to take on the heavier heavies :)

The one mechanic in 5e I really like is the advantage/disadvantage, though if I ever adapt it I would have to re-apply Hero and Luck points differently as they provide some of the same play options and stacking them as I award the pts now would be a bit much when an advantage was in play for a character. If I ever choose to add the advantage/disadvantage model as a houserule, I'd have to severely limit Hero and Luck points as much rarer rewards than I give now.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by slimykuotoan »

DMed second game, and it went extremely well.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by TheMetal1 »

My FLGS - Eagle & Empire Games - decided to pick up some D&D 5E PHB and the Hoard of the Dragon Queen module. As I had the PHB already (picked it up at another not so local FLGS - The Hobbit, in Fayetteville, NC), I wanted to show my support and immediately snatched it up for purchase.

I've read thru the first two scenarios, and it's pretty good. First, PC's wander into a town under attack by cultists and end up engaging a Blue Dragon right off the bat. After they help the town weather the attack, they move next inot a chase down the bad guys and free the prisoner scenario.

It has just enough detail, plenty of options and pretty open style of play. I could easily stick this into my C&C Game. Looking forward to reading the rest of it.

Anyone else pick up Hoard of the Dragon Queen?
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by tylermo »

In addition to Wolfgang Bauer, I saw that Steve Winter was a co-author of QoDH. I met him at North Texas rpg con. He was involved with a lot of old TSR projects (Star Frontiers, Marvel Supers, etc.). Awesome. I'Ve heard a couple of folks say it's railroady, but I don't know that for a fact. Looked good at a glance.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by slimykuotoan »

tylermo wrote: Awesome. I'Ve heard a couple of folks say it's railroady, but I don't know that for a fact. Looked good at a glance.
I'm running it now. I find it very railroady but very good.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Treebore »

Any adventure, as written, is "rail roady". It just takes a GM/DM/CK who knows how to use written adventures as an outline, and fill in the blanks as needed as the PC's move forward, to make it not be a "rail road".
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by DMSamuel »

There is a great, relatively comprehensive review written by a friend of mine, posted on RPGGeek, here: Worthwhile addition to your hoard, except the maps

In case you don't want to read the whole thing, here are the basics of his review:
1) Hoard of the Dragon Queen is a strong, but not quite excellent, campaign-length adventure to kick off D&D 5E.
2) It takes PCs up to 8th level, but some railroading will have to accepted to get there.
3) The episodes contain a variety of adventure styles - dungeon crawls, social episodes, and some investigation. This adventure will require more thinking and planning than the vast majority of those seen for recent D&D editions or Pathfinder.
4) There is not a huge variety of antagonists for 7-8 levels of play - mostly the same humanoids with only a few interesting/different creatures.
5) The treasure is also very boring.
6) The presentation hearkens back to older design in that it often presents a location with which the PCs can interact, without imposing an encounter structure.
7) It’s also important to note that Hoard of the Dragon Queen doesn’t have a conclusion. You’ll need to make up your own if you are running this on its own – or of course look out for the sequel, The Rise of Tiamat, in fall 2014.

And last but not least:
8) There are a few problems with the maps and some description editing stuff in the product: **Note, the following contains spoilers, so skip it if you don't want to read them!*** - I will put them in spoilery light blue colors to try and mitigate the spoilery-ness - highlight them with your mouse to see them.

Episode 1:
The Greenest town map on p. 10 has keyed areas 1-4, but the text only mentions areas 1 (the Keep) and 2 (the Old Tunnel exit). It looks as though area 3 is the temple to Chauntea and area 4 is the town mill, both significant to the episode.

Episode 3:
Area 10: Issue with the roper "willing to talk" but then stats don't list languages, so it looks like the adventure designers and the monster team have come to different visions of the roper. In 3.5, ropers were intelligent, so Baur and Winters were probably assuming they could use that version.

Episode 5:
In the text on p. 39, there's a dangling antecedent which caused me some confusion on initial reading: "Azbara Jos remains with the cultists during this time, and Jamna expresses her desire to remain with them until they uncover the treasure's destination." Jamna wants to remain with the PCs, not with the cultists.

The map of Carnath Roadhouse on p. 41 appears to be missing a red "door" indicator in the gap in the northern wall of the warehouse (area 3), just west of the stairs to the upper level. The text says the warehouse door is "latched but unlocked".

Area 12: This refers to four of the guards being at the entrance at any one time, but Area 1 actually has only 2 creatures (and they aren't the same type as those in area 12 anyway).

Episode 6:
Area 2H: The description clearly describes itself as sitting above the forge (1H), but this room doesn't. The solution is simply to switch the H and K labels on the Level 2 map of the Castle.

In area 1I/J/K (p. 53), are there twelve lizardfolk guards, as noted in the first paragraph of 1I, or twenty, as suggested by adding the numbers from 1J and 1K? I'm assuming it's twenty.

And in area 3E (p. 57), are there six specters or just three? I'm assuming it's six, since three CR1 specters are a pretty weak challenge for a 5th-level party, but it'd be nice to know for sure.


Episode 7:
Level 2 of the map is all screwed up. There definitely shouldn't be an area 14 here.

There should only be one area 18, but there are three. Some of these are supposed to be the bodyguard's chambers, but there are four of those. And there's another room with four beds that could work instead.

Probably the southernmost room marked "18" is Talis's bedchamber (Area 18): it has the "burgundy bedspread" mentioned in the room description. The four-bed room is marked "19", which is right if it's the bodyguards' room (Area 19).

So it looks to me as though the issues are that the two northern "18" rooms should just be (empty?) guest bedrooms, and that the room marked "14" is not described and is not Area 14 from the lower level. (Oh, and that Area 22 isn't marked on the map at all, though it's pretty clear from the description that it's above Area 18.)
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by seskis281 »

I think the comments about 5e being liberating for those used to 4e, 3.5/PF but still constricting to C&Cers is probably going to be right on. There was definitely a philosophical shift back towards the more open format for RPGs with this edition, but only to a point and still somewhat restricted by the desire to try and incorporate elements from all editions. In the end, I think the WotC design team looked at the "universe" of D&D players and made the decision to place the target for 5e at "2nd edition feel, with portions of both previous and later editions added." To a great extent this makes sense - the OSR movement has mainly revolved around OD&D, Basic (or B/X, BECMI) and 1e AD&D and all the derivatives and retro-clones that connect to those eras. PF took up the halberd of 3.x and amped it up, 4th has its own (almost separate) afficionados, but the one era that remained relatively un-represented by in-print D&D or other games was the 2e era. The art is most certainly trying to evoke the 2e period, "backgrounds" really do mimic "kits," though they eliminate class-tied benefits for them making them more flexible, and indeed intentionally seems to work back in some "wonkiness" on purpose to, in the words of Mearls, "keep some uniqueness." In the end, I think WotC realized their stated intention to "appeal to all the different players of different eras" was probably problematic, so they likely chose to concentrate on the "past" era least represented in other current "D&D-like" systems and to pair this with hopeful appeal to new players.

Thus, this is why 5e actually gets a lot of positive reaction from myself and other C&Cers, because it aimed in the direction of our RPG tastes and indeed went there in many respects, but still didn't quite go as "fully liberated" as the SIEGE mechanic and kept too much of the "power-up" feel of later 3.5/PF and 4e, kept skills as restrictive paradigms, etc.

I think ironically this also led, perhaps, to the complaints with HotDQ as an "adventure module," because its linear narrative structure of adventuring mimics very much the 2e Dragonlance module era.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Jyrdan Fairblade »

Just going to point out that the Monster Manual is going to have Modrons and Flumphs! This makes me stupidly happy.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/slyflourish_con ... _by_cr.pdf

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by slimykuotoan »

DMed another game last night. E'erything meshed nicely and the two combats held were lightning fast once again.

Alas, 'D&D Next' hath the openness o' old school rules for a truly enjoyable DMing experience, whilst still somehow giving the crunch which many players desire.
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by slimykuotoan »

Jyrdan Fairblade wrote:Just going to point out that the Monster Manual is going to have Modrons and Flumphs! This makes me stupidly happy.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/slyflourish_con ... _by_cr.pdf
And devils are there!
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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by tylermo »

Devils, eh? Hopefully, TLG's Tome of the Unclean is right around the corner.

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Re: D&D 5th Edition Discussion

Post by Arduin »

tylermo wrote:Devils, eh? Hopefully, TLG's Tome of the Unclean is right around the corner.

I have devils in my Tome of the Unclean now.
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