DCC RPG

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Ieuane
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DCC RPG

Post by Ieuane »

Has anyone run a session, or been a player, using the full DCC rules yet? If so, any thoughts? Anything you might port into CnC?

I'm supposed to try it out as a player this Sunday. Tried the 0 level, total randomization funnel system last night just for kicks, and everyone met their maker three rooms into the mod in the back of the book. When your 0 level, the genre is always Horror. :)

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by dunbruha »

We have played 3 sessions so far, and everyone is enjoying it very much. It is a lot of fun, and yes, the 0-level characters are quite mortal (as was my 1st-level elf, who had just 2 hp. RIP-or whatever elves do in the afterlife. On second thought, given his demonic patron, I doubt he is doing much resting.)

Not sure what could be ported into C&C without a lot of changes. The deed die for the Warrior is pretty cool, and maybe that could be adapted for the C&C Fighter.

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by alcyone »

I have the PDF for this game, and I think it looks like a lot of fun. I am a fan of the unpredictability; careful metagaming seems to be thwarted. Is that the case at the table?

I am not sure I can get a group together to play it. It looks like the sort of game where there'd be a lot of contention if there was just one book at the table, so I'd need to get at least 1 player copy. And I'd be the only one to spring for the fancy dice, and I don't want anyone touching them :). Do you find you need more books so everyone has access to the various tables?
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by dunbruha »

Aergraith wrote:I have the PDF for this game, and I think it looks like a lot of fun. I am a fan of the unpredictability; careful metagaming seems to be thwarted. Is that the case at the table?
Absolutely. If you use the character funnel, there is no metagaming for character creation at all. Whomever survives becomes your character.
Aergraith wrote:I am not sure I can get a group together to play it. It looks like the sort of game where there'd be a lot of contention if there was just one book at the table, so I'd need to get at least 1 player copy. And I'd be the only one to spring for the fancy dice, and I don't want anyone touching them :). Do you find you need more books so everyone has access to the various tables?
All of the "extra" die rolls can be achieved using the regular 7 dice. And the tables most commonly used are available as a pdf here http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 60&t=14791

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Re: DCC RPG

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Aergraith wrote:I have the PDF for this game, and I think it looks like a lot of fun. I am a fan of the unpredictability; careful metagaming seems to be thwarted. Is that the case at the table?

I am not sure I can get a group together to play it. It looks like the sort of game where there'd be a lot of contention if there was just one book at the table, so I'd need to get at least 1 player copy. And I'd be the only one to spring for the fancy dice, and I don't want anyone touching them :). Do you find you need more books so everyone has access to the various tables?
I purchased the book and was thinking of trying a playtest of this when one of our mutual online games has a cancellation, Aergraith, so if you want to be the DM for a playtest, keep that in mind ;)

Using maptools has the added advantage (I assume) that the weird dice thing is solved, since we just type /r 1d5 instead of /r 1d10 etc.

I think it would be a fun playtest, but my concern is more how it plays long term. Having magic inflict permanent corrupting consequences (and weapons inflict crits) sounds cool and very amusing short term, but as every spell caster starts to get "altered" by magic and every sellsword starts to lose limbs etc. from crits, campaign viability seems limited (Peg leg Pete and Octopus Face the Sorcerer does have a certain ring to it, however). Very realistic, yes, but is it fun over the long term?

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by alcyone »

Aramis wrote: I think it would be a fun playtest, but my concern is more how it plays long term. Having magic inflict permanent corrupting consequences (and weapons inflict crits) sounds cool and very amusing short term, but as every spell caster starts to get "altered" by magic and every sellsword starts to lose limbs etc. from crits, campaign viability seems limited (Peg leg Pete and Octopus Face the Sorcerer does have a certain ring to it, however). Very realistic, yes, but is it fun over the long term?
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Ieuane »

Aergraith wrote:I have the PDF for this game, and I think it looks like a lot of fun. I am a fan of the unpredictability; careful metagaming seems to be thwarted. Is that the case at the table?

I am not sure I can get a group together to play it. It looks like the sort of game where there'd be a lot of contention if there was just one book at the table, so I'd need to get at least 1 player copy. And I'd be the only one to spring for the fancy dice, and I don't want anyone touching them :). Do you find you need more books so everyone has access to the various tables?
I think everyone will have a book, which I guess you could interpret as, "Yes." At 0 level, the only table you reference is "D-0: Death Now or Later."

Come Sunday, it will probably depend on how much the DM wants the players to roll/reference the tables, including spells.

I could see printing out the class crit table for each character/player, and then let the player roll. You could print out the Might Deeds of Arms pages as a free-range reference packet . You'd probably only need the book/pdf at hand if you were a spell-caster.

Metagaming - if you enforce using the random character creation method, including straight rolls down the line for stats, and occupation, any hint of min/max (if that's what you mean) is vanquished. It might even be impossible.

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Lord Dynel »

I finally broke down and ordered me this darn thing. I was super-excited when I first heard about it, then I cooled down. A lot. Then, as release neared, I got excited again. I was expecting to see it in my FLGS, but sadly the guy dropped the ball. So, I ordered it from Troll and Toad today. I'm anxiously awaiting its arrival. :D
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by finarvyn »

I've been following the game's development from the inside as a pre-beta playtester and I think it's a great product. The two things that bug folks the most are (1) funky dice, and (2) such a thick book.

As to the funky dice, much of my playtesting occured with only a regular poly set of dice. You can recreate the odd dice by either (a) using a bigger die and doing a "roll over" for numbers not in the range, or (b) using a smaller die and a control die. An example of a "roll over" would be to use a d8 in place of a d7 and to roll over any 8's. An example of a control die would be to use a d12+d6 in place of a d24 and if the d6 rolls high (4-6) simply add 12 to the d12 number. It's not nearly as complex as folks seem to be making it.

As far as the thickness of the book, keep in mind that a huge slice of the game is in the form of spell charts. Each spell takes up a full page or so of rules, but only because there is so much flavor in the effects that can occur. If you remove the spell pages, the rulebook would appear a lot thinner. Also, to start out you can remove certain aspects of the rules (Mighty Deeds, Murcurial Magic, etc) which add great flavor but may seem complex at first. Then add 'em in as you feel comfortable running the game.

Honestly, running DCC is very easy. Most of it is intuitive and follows the basic philosophy of other "old school" RPGs.
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Thoom »

Thanks for the feedback finarvyn, much appreciated. I've got the pre-release but I have yet to run a game as I have not had the time to read it all (mostly hoping around from subject to subject). It seemed to be hard to referee but I'm glad that you say it ain't.

I hope my players like it. Some of them are grumpy old players that think nothing good has been invented since 1979! :)

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by finarvyn »

Start 'em off with 0-level characters and let the first session run without using a lot of the tricky rules. That way they can get a feel for how to play and such without much confusion. Then slowly bring 'em on board with Mighty Deeds and Spellburn and some of the other stuff. Honestly, most of the rulebook is spell tables. :D
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Aramis »

One thing I wonder about with DCC is its claim to be a more Appendix N, sword and sorcery style game (one of the main reasons I bought it). Two of the main hallmarks of gameplay (the 3d6 in order mediocre stats, and the 0 level funnel of peasants with hoes and lengths of rope) seem to have very little to do with such a style

In fact sword and sorcery is almost always the opposite. The protagonists (Conan, Elric, Fafhrd, Grey Mouser, etc.) are quite superior to everyday peasants, even in their early lives, and they did not stumble through a terrifying dungeon funnel to begin their careers

As noted above, I have not yet received my book so perhaps the answers are in there, and the 0 level funnel of peasants style of gaming is probably quite amusing, but how did we get from Appendix N to the peasant funnel?

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Ieuane »

Aramis wrote:One thing I wonder about with DCC is its claim to be a more Appendix N, sword and sorcery style game (one of the main reasons I bought it). Two of the main hallmarks of gameplay (the 3d6 in order mediocre stats, and the 0 level funnel of peasants with hoes and lengths of rope) seem to have very little to do with such a style
Good point.

Having now played DCC, it’s all in the spell casting. Most of the system is aimed at making the use of magic, and recovering from using magic, a big part of the game.

Taking time creating and ordering around plebes and fodder, aka the 0 level funnel system, is a waste of that time. Something’s sadistic about it. Like Lee Ermey leaning over your shoulder, shouting, “You will play a sucky, doomed to die waste of space, and you will love it. Love it. D’hear me, you pasty-face, pampered, 20 in my main attribute, full 1st level hp, Pathfinder prestige class, 4E with my sweet tea cry baby—LOVE IT!!!!”

I’d like to have seen something more like the front end of CnC—with both races and classes—that had been given the Goodman & Co treatment, then worked in with a scaled-back version of the magic system in DCC.

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by dunbruha »

Ieuane wrote:
Aramis wrote:One thing I wonder about with DCC is its claim to be a more Appendix N, sword and sorcery style game (one of the main reasons I bought it). Two of the main hallmarks of gameplay (the 3d6 in order mediocre stats, and the 0 level funnel of peasants with hoes and lengths of rope) seem to have very little to do with such a style
Good point.

Having now played DCC, it’s all in the spell casting. Most of the system is aimed at making the use of magic, and recovering from using magic, a big part of the game.

Taking time creating and ordering around plebes and fodder, aka the 0 level funnel system, is a waste of that time. Something’s sadistic about it. Like Lee Ermey leaning over your shoulder, shouting, “You will play a sucky, doomed to die waste of space, and you will love it. Love it. D’hear me, you pasty-face, pampered, 20 in my main attribute, full 1st level hp, Pathfinder prestige class, 4E with my sweet tea cry baby—LOVE IT!!!!”

I’d like to have seen something more like the front end of CnC—with both races and classes—that had been given the Goodman & Co treatment, then worked in with a scaled-back version of the magic system in DCC.
Just to add another point of view--I have played the game for several weeks now, and our group LOVES the funnel--it is really fun. I guess Lee Ermey couldn't make it to our table. :roll:

In my view, the funnel's strength is that it eliminates the min/max temptation when creating a character--you create it randomly, but you do have some choice among several characters. It is easy to skip it and use some other char-gen system if you want.

I agree with you about the "race as class" thing--I don't much care for it, and have some plans to house-rule a separate race/class system when it is my turn to GM.

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Re: DCC RPG

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Ieuane wrote:
Aramis wrote:One thing I wonder about with DCC is its claim to be a more Appendix N, sword and sorcery style game (one of the main reasons I bought it). Two of the main hallmarks of gameplay (the 3d6 in order mediocre stats, and the 0 level funnel of peasants with hoes and lengths of rope) seem to have very little to do with such a style
Good point.

Having now played DCC, it’s all in the spell casting. Most of the system is aimed at making the use of magic, and recovering from using magic, a big part of the game.


Yes, I noticed that seemingly half the book is devoted to spells. One wonders how it all plays in a party with few or no spellcasters (most of our C&C games have a plethora of sword swingers). Seems like part of the flavour would be absent.

But, the more important point is: I received my book today. Huzzah! Now to ensure Aergraith is still going to run our playtest... :lol:

First impressions:
-it's big. Like, size of a college textbook big.

- And also, like college textbooks, it is full of wonderful doodles at the margins. The evocative line art in this tome is superb. Much better than the airbrushed full colour superhero/manga that seems to dominate other games (though, thankfully, not C&C)

-It came with a free module, as well as the two in the back. Not sure if they all have that, but what a wonderful bonus. Give the customers more than they expect. Excellent business practice

-there are a ton of cool little rule changes. I am not sure if they all work well in play etc. but someone has thought about the various issues and come up with some fun ideas

-like C&C it seems very modular. New class? New Race? Just slot them right in. Although adapting spells would be more work than normal since each would require a spell table

-speaking of which, the various crit and spell tables often are quite evocative and/or amusing. However, the varied outcomes are actually much more detailed than I was expecting. It makes me wonder how much discussions over interpretations would be necessitated for each and every spell when even vanilla C&C spells and magic items often leave us flipping through our books trying to get a handle on specific instances

So some stuff to ponder as I read more deeply but this looks like an excellent book

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by finarvyn »

The "Appendix N" thing comes in a few places:
1. Spell effects -- sometimes dark, sometimes whimsical, always unpredictable
2. Patrons -- characters like Elric got favors from Arioch, this is a big concept in DCC
3. Monsters -- the idea that most monsters are unique fits the AppN style
4. Artwork -- the Kovacs maps, the B&W line art, much like was found in some of the pulpy magazines like Weird Tales
5. The style of the modules -- a focus on dark sorcery and such

Could this atmosphere be done with other RPGs? Sure. Much of DCC is similar to C&C or AD&D or other old-school games. The flavor of the game is based on the extras as much as it is on rules mechanics.
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by redwullf »

Somehow, unintentionally, I've become an FRPG book collector over the past year, rounding out collections here and there. In the spirit of this (costly) endeavor, I picked up the Limied-Edition Gold Foil Cover copy of DCC. I can honestly say, given the field of choices at my weekly game table, DCC will likely never see play-time. However, as a collector piece, it's a work of stunning beauty and I absolutely love thumbing through it. If things were different, and if Goodman hadn't insisted on the extra dice, there might have been some time spent playing this game.

This is not a critique, mind you. The game looks wonderful and fun, no doubt about that, and the book is utterly gorgeous.
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Sir Ironside »

I had no intention on buying DCC. Wasn't really all that interested. Then I kept reading about how people liked DCC. What turned me off was the "weird" (Not to me as I've owned Gamescience dice for years) dice that was integral to the game. I also saw the book and it was a giant one and as I like more rules light games these days, I figured I was looking at another Aces & Eights. A game I'd love to play, but the complexity was something that turned me off. Being based off of D&D 3/3.5 rules set didn't help the cause.

I could go on about things that prevented me from giving DCC even a quick glance but after all the good reviews I figured I'd at least check out more in depth reviews. A lot of them where helpful but the best one I found was on Youtube at this link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAJA4VWvGC4&noredirect=1

Though he admittedly is kind of all over the place and not as coherent as he'd like to be, he does explain that it is this way because he was so overwhelmed with awesome that it was hard to streamline the review. That being said, he is definitely a guy that took the time to read and understand DCC and articulates it enough to give you a very good feel as to what DCC is and who should play it. He is also one of the more intelligent reviewers that does give an excellent oversight of DCC. More importantly he answered some of my concerns and showed just how well DCC runs smoothly and how, unabashed, Goodman Games took no compromises to its design and it was wrote for a very specific type of game play with no apologies. In a game world where rpg's attempt to attract a wide variance of gamer types, I find it refreshing that there is a game that says, "Play this game if you like [blank]. Don't pick up this game if you don't like [blank]." It was this video review that has me more excited about DCC.

There where definitely areas that were covered that I was so glad to see. Things like creating a character by rolling 3d6 from top to bottom and having to live with the outcome. Something that has totally disappeared from rpg's and something I liked from my early gaming years. Making you play from zero level and having to survive the crucible of fire just highlights how one can get more attached or more invested in your character outside of the normal "build to your specifications" investment. I also like that you may end up with a character that maybe a class you didn't want to play, but because of the emotional investment kind of takes that mind-thought away.

What can I say about magic. It forces you (In a good way) to go out of the magic as a tool to magic as a living thing. Something I've tried to do with the more traditional games but players didn't get that flavour is just as important as to what it can do. I love it.

Never liking playing multiple characters at the same time, DCC makes it actually something you'd want to do.

Going back to races as classes was something else I loved. And, they did it so well that once you play it it makes sense and makes it enjoyable to not have to pair up class and race separately.

Nice to hear that Goodman Games plan to fully support DCC (Not just modules but other, undefined, books that will complement DCC. World book? Patron book? Monster book?) It'd be interesting if they eventually decided to try to do GM screens. Don't know how possible that'd be, but still interesting to see how it could be done.

There is so much more that had given me an about face and so many things that I was concerned about that I realized I was in the conventional rpg mind-set but once it was spelled out for me, I realized I wasn't giving the game a fair shake and most of my concerns weren't even founded in reality just my expectations.

A minor thing, but a book that relies so heavily on charts, *there is no appendix. If there was ever a system that would need one it'd be DCC.

*I'm relying on the other reviewers words. If this has changed in the final product then I guess that has been covered. If it doesn't it seems to me that the pdf would be better than the book. I have no good computer technology that would help me in this aspect (No tablet, notebook or laptop.) so I guess it'd be bookmarks for me. Also having the pdf I guess you could print out the specific pages you'd need and attach them to characters or as a quick reference for the Judge.
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Relaxo »

Ironside, that is a great link! Thanks for sharing.

It really clarifies a lot of interesting details.
I love the deed die (action die?) for fighters! that is very cool!

that video really cuts thru some of the hype and crap surrounding DCC and just reveals it. Now I'm very interested in the game.

I stumbled upon this video, unrelated, but funny:
http://youtu.be/HKy3Bl_K6BM
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by finarvyn »

Sir Ironside wrote:A minor thing, but a book that relies so heavily on charts, *there is no appendix. If there was ever a system that would need one it'd be DCC.
You're not the first to cite this flaw.
(1) There is a project on the DCC boards right now to create an index. I asume it will be a free download. (It's a GoogleDoc at the moment.)
(2) As has been noted, a large percentage of the rulebook is actually spell tables. It turns out that there really aren't that many rules, and I think that the "need" for an index has been somewhat overblown.
(3) On the Goodman boards is a "resources" thread with a nifty little download. A booklet of tables that can be printed as a pamphlet for game use. It doesn't have spells, but it does have lots of key tables like crit and fumble charts. Not quite the same as an index, but a way to have key rules in a smaller space. ;)
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Relaxo »

I finally spent some quality time pouring thru the Beta rules and I'm becoming more and more impressed with DCC. I was initially turned off by the zocchi dice, thinking they were just trying to be different, but they're so well integrated into the rules and they ways they're used are brilliant.
The appendix N flavor permeates.
They're may be too many charts? But I say this from reading the beta, not from actual play, and when you're actually playing, a handful of post-it's will make short work of finding tables.
The Deeds rule is very cool (it's like a more freeform called shots rule, gives guidance for old-school making stuff up maneuvers, while giving it all a rules framework so that it's clearly not GM fiat (I'm inclined to say the tables for various Deed resolutions are unnecessary; the guideline of rolling a 3 is success, and the higher you roll the more successful it is... but again, in all fairness, I'm saying this from a read of the beta rules)).
so yeah... if I see it on sale or I have a gift card somewhere, I may grab the full rule book. I'll certainly play if I come across a game.
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Sir Ironside »

finarvyn wrote:As has been noted, a large percentage of the rulebook is actually spell tables. It turns out that there really aren't that many rules, and I think that the "need" for an index has been somewhat overblown.
With such a massive book, wouldn't a index that included spells be a big help for the dead tree book? To me I'd seem that including them would be a big help, for character creation as well as for the Judge when playing the actual game.

I include the player because, during the time you are creating your character(s), it'd be a lot easier to refer to the index (Spell heading then spells that are in alphabetical order, maybe separated spells for a Wizard and a Cleric.) when picking your spells. I don't know about you, but I'd bet a majority of the spells would not be uncommon and having a list that you can scan through, before going to the spell page, seems less daunting than flipping through 200+ pages of spells. Any unknown spells, that intrigues a player, it is a simple matter of going to the page that the index has numbered.

Owning the pdf you would not have these problems, and I'm not a fan of using multiple bookmarks to get to the pages I need. So, if there is something offered by the game that the pdf can do, it isn't that far of a stretch to at least to try and have something that resembles what you could do with the pdf?
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by dunbruha »

The 2nd printing is supposed to have an index (as well as fixing errata). (The 1st printing is essentially sold out.)

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Ieuane »

Sir Ironside wrote: I include the player because, during the time you are creating your character(s), it'd be a lot easier to refer to the index (Spell heading then spells that are in alphabetical order, maybe separated spells for a Wizard and a Cleric.) when picking your spells. I don't know about you, but I'd bet a majority of the spells would not be uncommon and having a list that you can scan through, before going to the spell page, seems less daunting than flipping through 200+ pages of spells. Any unknown spells, that intrigues a player, it is a simple matter of going to the page that the index has numbered.
Pages 127-128 provide a list that works like a spell index--each spell and its page number. It's handy during character creation, and when you're in theatre. This is good, because the spell tables are by level, and then alphabetical, order. Haven't messed with patron spells yet, which are in another section.

Here's a character sheet I made that has page references on it. Seemed to help. It looks wonky--its' just a doc converted to pdf, but it prints nice. http://www.mediafire.com/?sjgyfcxy2hy2og1

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by dunbruha »

Ieuane wrote:Here's a character sheet I made that has page references on it. Seemed to help. It looks wonky--its' just a doc converted to pdf, but it prints nice. http://www.mediafire.com/?sjgyfcxy2hy2og1
Nice sheet. What are the small circles for in the Saves?

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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Sir Ironside »

Ieuane wrote:Pages 127-128 provide a list that works like a spell index--each spell and its page number. It's handy during character creation, and when you're in theatre. This is good, because the spell tables are by level, and then alphabetical, order. Haven't messed with patron spells yet, which are in another section.
I'm still a proponent of indexes, but that sounds even better than what I had envisioned.
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Ieuane
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Ieuane »

dunbruha wrote: What are the small circles for in the Saves?
The race/class bonus by level, which you then add to the attribute mod.

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TheMetal1
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by TheMetal1 »

Anyone have a review, game play or more thoughts on this since it came out?

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finarvyn
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by finarvyn »

dunbruha wrote:The 2nd printing is supposed to have an index (as well as fixing errata). (The 1st printing is essentially sold out.)
This is correct. The second printing will have both an index and some typos fixed. You can also download a PDF of the index and changes at the Goodman Games forum (and, I think, also on the main website).

There will be several covers for the 2nd printing.
1) The "blue" Kovacs cover with the dude and the portal will be the go-to cover. This should be hitting the presses ASAP.
2) Kovacs is doing an alternate "wizard" cover (preview sketch on GG's boards). The release date is Sept/Oct, I think.
3) An un-named TSR artist will also be doing a second alternate cover. No details yet; Joseph is keeping this secret at the moment. Estimated release date is December, last I heard.
TheMetal1 wrote:Anyone have a review, game play or more thoughts on this since it came out?
Not much different than earlier posts. I've been playtesting several of the DCC modules and a couple "third party" products. Joseph Goodman has tried to keep a high level of quality in terms of adventure design and pretty much everything I've seen is top-notch.

I still occasionally hear some grumblings about dice types, but mostly on forums. My players have had zero issues with dice. (I've picked up a couple of the Gamescience 12-die poly sets and there are some really easy ways to "fake it" for most rolls with regular poly sets.)

The rules really are a lot simpler that the thickness of the rulebook would imply. We've been having a blast with DCC for over a year now.
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Relaxo
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Re: DCC RPG

Post by Relaxo »

Fin, can I ask about the Fighter's Deed Die past level 5? From levels 1-5 the size is level +2, but at somepoint does it become 2dsomething? or 1dX + Y? at some point in their career, a potential 1 on that die makes them weaker than fighters in other games (of course with the wizard's spell check to cast, they probably balance out with the other classes (not that balance is a concern, but the classes should be close-ish))

did that make sense?
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