Any thoughts on the playtester Kit just released?

[Julian Grimm]

I keep hearing the next packet will be released during GenCon.

[Rigon]

I keep hearing the next packet will be released during GenCon.

Thanks, JG.

R-

[finarvyn]

I keep hearing the next packet will be released during GenCon.

Actually, a guy I know who has some "connections" said that he expected it to be a couple of days before GenCon so that folks funning games would be able to read up on the changes.

[MormonYoYoMan]

I keep hearing the next packet will be released during GenCon.

Actually, a guy I know who has some "connections" said that he expected it to be a couple of days before GenCon so that folks funning games would be able to read up on the changes.

"Funning games" may have been a typo, but I like it!!

[Rigon]

I keep hearing the next packet will be released during GenCon.

Actually, a guy I know who has some "connections" said that he expected it to be a couple of days before GenCon so that folks funning games would be able to read up on the changes.

Even better.

R-

[Rigon]

For anyone who is interested, the new playtest version is available for download over at WizBro.

R-

[Julian Grimm]

Got it. From the skim through it looks good. So far I have liked what I have seen but need to give it a deeper read.

[redwullf]

Yeah, this kit focuses on character creation and looks really good. I did note that the Opportunity Attacks have returned with this iteration of the game rules, but they only occur if you move out of your opponent's melee attack range without using a Withdraw action. For those of you who played AD&D you'll recognize this as the original attack of opportunity rule, which got out of hand in 3rd edition.

[Relaxo]

Is combat in feet or squares?

[MormonYoYoMan]

I don't like that the new monk class has the feat of flinging its own poop.

[Rigon]

Is combat in feet or squares?

Feet.

R-

[Relaxo]

I don't like that the new monk class has the feat of flinging its own poop.

Only if they're from the Monkey Clan, so it balances out.

[Relaxo]

Is combat in feet or squares?

Feet.

R-

Cool.

This bodes well, I dare say.

[Ieuane]

Yeah, this kit focuses on character creation and looks really good. I did note that the Opportunity Attacks have returned with this iteration of the game rules, but they only occur if you move out of your opponent's melee attack range without using a Withdraw action. For those of you who played AD&D you'll recognize this as the original attack of opportunity rule, which got out of hand in 3rd edition.

I saw a few more innovations as well, such as the fighter's expertise dice. I also see how the character creation modularity is developing: class + background + specialty, with feats and skills coming in with the background and specialty. Both optional. But it looks good--solid and easy to use. I like that they are *adding* content and concepts, with any eye to maintaining an open and light feel to the rules. Little things like putting the spell descriptions of the spells the “Dark Priest” can cast in its stat block in the bestiary warms my heart.

[redwullf]

Looks like the "basic set" will also take characters to level 10, although the playtest only goes up to level 5.

[Relaxo]

I saw a few more innovations as well, such as the fighter's expertise dice.

Oh, DCC much?



I'll have to reead this play test thingy I DL'd, it actually sounds kinda good.

[Rigon]

The fighter's combat expertise seems uneccessarilly complicated to me. And the fact that Turn Undead is a first level spell that you don't need to prepare is kind of silly. Why not just make it a part of Channel Divinity?

Some of the stuff just comes across as too fidlely. I think they could have gone more simplistic for the "basic" set. Then added the fidlely bits for more complex play, if you wanted it.

It's starting to move toward a game that I don't know if I'd want to play now.

R-

[redwullf]

The fighter's combat expertise seems uneccessarilly complicated to me. But YMMV.

R-

I think it's in the spirit of "everybody can do something special" that has been around since...well...2E options, really, but more prevalent in 3rd edition. Even though the D&D Next "basic" set will be relatively rules light...perhaps *very* rules light...they're not going to get rid of every feature that has been successful in the past 10+ years. Fun features for each core class will persist even in the basic version, I imagine.

[Rigon]

The fighter's combat expertise seems uneccessarilly complicated to me. But YMMV.

R-

I think it's in the spirit of "everybody can do something special" that has been around since...well...2E options, really, but more prevalent in 3rd edition. Even though the D&D Next "basic" set will be relatively rules light...perhaps *very* rules light...they're not going to get rid of every feature that has been successful in the past 10+ years. Fun features for each core class will persist even in the basic version, I imagine.

You got me while I was editing my post. I added some more thoughts.

But I think you have something there. I think the CE could be streamlined. Just have some actions/abilities that a fighter can pick from at a given level. Sort of like the fighter's bonus feats from 3e, but that are only available to a fighter. I don't know why I would need an expertise dice for that. Fidlely.

R-

[redwullf]

The fighter's combat expertise seems uneccessarilly complicated to me. But YMMV.

R-

I think it's in the spirit of "everybody can do something special" that has been around since...well...2E options, really, but more prevalent in 3rd edition. Even though the D&D Next "basic" set will be relatively rules light...perhaps *very* rules light...they're not going to get rid of every feature that has been successful in the past 10+ years. Fun features for each core class will persist even in the basic version, I imagine.

You got me while I was editing my post. I added some more thoughts.

But I think you have something there. I think the CE could be streamlined. Just have some actions/abilities that a fighter can pick from at a given level. Sort of like the fighter's bonus feats from 3e, but that are only available to a fighter. I don't know why I would need an expertise dice for that. Fidlely.

R-

Well yeah, it's a bit gimmicky and, as Relaxo pointed out, very "DCC" which beat Wizards to the market with a similar mechanic. So far I've only been pouring over the updated and new rules. Haven't played with the 2nd kit yet. However, I'll use the character gen rules to re-imagine my dwarf fighter from the first kit, and we'll see how he plays with the new expertise dice. I won't judge it 'til I kill some orcs with it.

[Relaxo]

Killing orcs is always the real test,LOL.

Random thought: I was paging thru my 2nd ed AD&D PHB for some reason the other day and was struck by how simple/boring the fighter was.
Best THAC0, best HD, best weapons and armor selection, best attack rates, the only class RAW with weapon specialization... but no flashy stuff. none. Mechanics wise, that was very very simple and perhaps dull, like everyone used to complain about. (yea yea yea non weapon proficiencies, but no Combat Dominance, no sunder... all that I guess was up to the DM and/or players to suss out in play, which sounds great and nicely old skool, but if you had a DM who was very by the book, it was like, roll attack, roll attack roll attack. Maybe I've been "infected" by the new thinking, but I like the newer fighters better.

Total thread drift, sorry.

[redwullf]

Killing orcs is always the real test,LOL.

Random thought: I was paging thru my 2nd ed AD&D PHB for some reason the other day and was struck by how simple/boring the fighter was.
Best THAC0, best HD, best weapons and armor selection, best attack rates, the only class RAW with weapon specialization... but no flashy stuff. none. Mechanics wise, that was very very simple and perhaps dull, like everyone used to complain about. (yea yea yea non weapon proficiencies, but no Combat Dominance, no sunder... all that I guess was up to the DM and/or players to suss out in play, which sounds great and nicely old skool, but if you had a DM who was very by the book, it was like, roll attack, roll attack roll attack. Maybe I've been "infected" by the new thinking, but I like the newer fighters better.

Total thread drift, sorry.

Player's Options: Combat and Tactics made the fighter more interesting, but made combat a much bigger pain.

[Ieuane]

Oh, DCC much?



I'll have to reead this play test thingy I DL'd, it actually sounds kinda good.

When you read it you'll see the DCC deed dice and the playtest expertise dice don't work quite the same way. It doesn't replace base attack and damage bonuses, and it is not tied to combat action random result tables. Instead, it provides a way to produce a range of scaled results within definite class abilities, replacing things like Level/2 + Att. mod. and all that.

[redwullf]

Oh, DCC much?



I'll have to reead this play test thingy I DL'd, it actually sounds kinda good.

When you read it you'll see the DCC deed dice and the playtest expertise dice don't work quite the same way. It doesn't replace base attack and damage bonuses, and it is not tied to combat action random result tables. Instead, it provides a way to produce a range of scaled results within definite class abilities, replacing things like Level/2 + Att. mod. and all that.

Indeed, but you can see that the concept seems...borrowed...

[Relaxo]

When you read it you'll see the DCC deed dice and the playtest expertise dice don't work quite the same way. It doesn't replace base attack and damage bonuses, and it is not tied to combat action random result tables. Instead, it provides a way to produce a range of scaled results within definite class abilities, replacing things like Level/2 + Att. mod. and all that.

Good, sounds cool. Glad it's not the same.

[Ieuane]

Indeed, but you can see that the concept seems...borrowed...

Sure, and I was going to mention as much in my original post, but I didn't want to talk about a third game on a thread about a second game in a forum dedicated to yet another game. Like right now.

From a certain perspective, however, OGL land itself is entirely derivative (borrowed, as you say.) Maybe it's about time they returned the favor, if even in a teeny-tiny way.

[redwullf]

Indeed, but you can see that the concept seems...borrowed...

Sure, and I was going to mention as much in my original post, but I didn't want to talk about a third game on a thread about a second game in a forum dedicated to yet another game. Like right now.

From a certain perspective, however, OGL land itself is entirely derivative (borrowed, as you say.) Maybe it's about time they returned the favor, if even in a teeny-tiny way.

I'd agree if Wizards of the Coast wasn't "the big multimillion dollar company." The little guy, the underdog, doing a little borrowing is one thing, but the big doing borrowing without so much as a "thank you for that idea," that's altogether different, I'd say. However, I don't feel passionate enough about it to go out and picket WotC or anything. Heck, I don't even feel passionately enough about it to NOT try the D&D Next play test (which I enjoy, by the way).

[Harlock]

It's funny; the D&DN playtest is what led me to C&C. And, having read the C&C PHB, M&T, and now the CKG I see that C&C is all I wanted for an RPG anymore. Everything is intuitive for me. It's the first RPG I have read where I said, "If I designed a game, this is exactly what it would have been!". I don't care how simple WotC claims the Core will be, C&C is already streamlined and elegant. Also, it portrays rangers as scouts and not fighter/druids, bards as skalds and not fighter/sorcerer-lite, etc. No matter what happens, WotC will keep adding more modules and players will want to add this, or that, and you'll be the bad guy if you don't allow it or try it, and the inevitable power creep and rules creep will rear its ugly head.

I applaud WotC for making the effort to remake D&D into what made it great in the first place. However, it will come to late for me as I already have a better version of that game that is still supported and I can count on it not being replaced 5-10 years down the road with something that I no longer recognize as the world's most popular roleplaying game. Perhaps WotC can make on game to appeal to the three or four different hardcore groups of fans they have created, but color me a skeptic.