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StarSiege Relaunch 
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Unkbartig

Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
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There are two box sets of SSEH at my local used book store... I don't know where they got them from as none of the stores here ever carried it. Maybe mail orders?
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Thu May 06, 2010 8:39 pm
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Greater Lore Drake

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I assume they're used copies, or new? Somebody needs to pick those up. Renewed interest in Starsiege would be a good thing.


Thu May 06, 2010 10:08 pm
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Lore Drake
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Seeing as how I got singled out...

I don't think that you have to defend what you did or how your game turned out, but that doesn't invalidate my statement. Others have said the same thing and word gets around and it probably turned off some people... hence fewer sales. I remember threads at RPG.net when it was released at GenCon and much of what is in this thread was brought up back then. For the record I like Starsiege and those niggling points do not prevent me from possibly enjoying a session or two, but this thread was specifically about how a relaunch should be done, which unfortunately means people are going to discuss what they didn't like.

Maybe TLG could make the fact that it is a derivative of the Siege Engine by putting a "Powered by The Siege Engine" logo.

Quote:
cheeplives wrote:
I do know of a few things that I'd probably like to include:

1) Trade Mechanics

2) Repair/Modification Mechanics

In retrospect, i should have dropped the Mutations section in favor of these... but what can I say, hindsight and all that.



The mutations where cool and opens up more gaming potential. Maybe a relaunch could include all the above.
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Thu May 06, 2010 11:35 pm
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Unkbartig
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Speaking of mutations, the more I read over the system, the more I liked the idea of using it for a post apocalypse setting, so I started jotting notes down for it. I am going to flesh this out and run a session or two and see how it goes. Maybe a balance between FallOut and GammaWorld.

Oh, and by the way Josh. I forgot how many examples you give of everything. Tons of them, as a matter of fact, and they do help tremendously.
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Fri May 07, 2010 1:50 am
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Quote:
Sir Ironside wrote:
Maybe TLG could make the fact that it is a derivative of the Siege Engine by putting a "Powered by The Siege Engine" logo.



Actually, all Siege Engine games have the Siege Engine logo but in matters where a Siege Engine game is a derivative of C&C, it will include that logo as well. Harvesters is an example of this. It has both the Siege Engine logo and the C&C logo in the back (and side by side).

It might seem a bit backwards when you think about it but what it comes down to is the nuances of a game mechanic used within a system as opposed to a system/game in itself.

Not that any of this helps if people don't necessarily know the company or product lines.
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Fri May 07, 2010 2:38 am
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
moriarty777 wrote:
Actually, all Siege Engine games have the Siege Engine logo but in matters where a Siege Engine game is a derivative of C&C, it will include that logo as well. Harvesters is an example of this. It has both the Siege Engine logo and the C&C logo in the back (and side by side).

It might seem a bit backwards when you think about it but what it comes down to is the nuances of a game mechanic used within a system as opposed to a system/game in itself.

Not that any of this helps if people don't necessarily know the company or product lines.
M



I'm aware that the Siege Engine logo is on the box, I was more referring to the "Powered by" part. SJgames does this when they licence out their system to a third party. Amarillo Design Bureau used it with their Star Trek game and although they did use GURPS out of the box, they did tweek some rules to fit the game. There was no expectations for it to be exactly like GURPS in every way. A subtle difference yes, but I think it is worth it.
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Fri May 07, 2010 7:36 am
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Red Cap

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Quote:
Sir Ironside wrote:
Seeing as how I got singled out...

I don't think that you have to defend what you did or how your game turned out, but that doesn't invalidate my statement. Others have said the same thing and word gets around and it probably turned off some people... hence fewer sales. I remember threads at RPG.net when it was released at GenCon and much of what is in this thread was brought up back then. For the record I like Starsiege and those niggling points do not prevent me from possibly enjoying a session or two, but this thread was specifically about how a relaunch should be done, which unfortunately means people are going to discuss what they didn't like.

Maybe TLG could make the fact that it is a derivative of the Siege Engine by putting a "Powered by The Siege Engine" logo.



Well you know what they say about pleasing everyone. And I can also say that the amount of people who have voiced the "it's not C&C in space" complaint have been a very small minority of those who I have talked to about SS. Anecdotal evidence, to be sure, but from my experience those who give the game a chance regardless of their preconcived notions of what they actually thought they wanted are usually very pleased with the implementation.

Also, I wasn't singling you out for any reason other than you were the only one who was saying something was substantively wrong with the game. Everyone else was complaining about the layout, packaging, and lack of exhaustive lists.

As far as the "SIEGE Engine" discussion.. There's not much to say on that subject. StarSIEGE is a SIEGE Engine game... you seem to think that only direct C&C derivatives are SIEGE Engine games... no way to really convince you otherwise, save for the fact that the Troll Lords consider SSEH a SIEGE Engine game, which is enough for me.

As a counterpoint to your GURPS example, the One Roll Engine is used for Wild Talents, Godlike, NEMESIS, REIGN, and Monsters and Other Childish Things. In each of those games, it's a different version/implementation of the system... but they are all considered One Roll Engine (ORE) games with no distinction of "powered by" or "inspired by" or anything thing marking them as derivatives. And the fans of the games have little problem adapting to different versions and expectations. So it's just a matter of personal taste and expectations.
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Fri May 07, 2010 1:50 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
cheeplives wrote:
< Snippty snip snip >



In all fairness, my exposure to those who complained about the Siege Engine thing is limited an also anecdotal, it is hardly market research. I know their is a subtle difference between putting the Siege Engine logo on a product that isn't truly C&C or "C&C in space" the powered by logo (Like the same logo with powered by at the bottom for instance) gives the average customer an idea that this isn't just C&C in space. I know it is probably hard to understand what I am talking about as far as the difference goes, but my example with the powered by GURPS has little to do with it being a universal system and more to do with expectations, such as you know that GURPS is core to the game but you expect that there will be differences. ORE has always been a universal system so the expectations are there, if you like it or not, C&C and the Seige Engine has the same problem as d20, in that it was originally created for a fantasy setting with little thought to making it a universal system, and that is what people think of it as.

I don't know if that explains it any better as it appears I was not all that good at expressing the meaning the first time around. I hope that is more clear. I don't think that all Siege Engine games have to be exactly like C&C I am saying a heads up into what you are buying helps. The boxed set limited a flip through at the brick and mortar store, where a person could go, "Hey there seems to be some significant changes to the Siege System."

Like I said, I like the game, all the concerns expressed here do not necessarily apply to me, this was just my contribution. Ignore it, use it or whatever, in the end I am just a fan wanting Starsiege to succeed, even though it may not seem like it.
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Fri May 07, 2010 5:14 pm
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Mogrl

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If there is one good thing about the discussion, it is that people want to see it succeed.
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Fri May 07, 2010 5:23 pm
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Red Cap

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Quote:
Sir Ironside wrote:
Snip yourself! .



You know, I never thought of ORE as a universal system... In fact, most people seem to link it to a WWII high fatality gritty system... which it is, but as can be seen by ports like "Monsters" it isn't necessarily. So I can kind of see what you're getting at. More to the point, on RPG.net, it took me a little while arguing with the admin staff there that SS was not a d20 based game (and thus relegated to the "d20 ghetto").

Their logic was: C&C is d20, StarSIEGE is based on C&C, thus it's d20. My argument is that StarSIEGE is no more d20 than Fading Suns... it is a SIEGE Engine game, which is neither OGL nor based in any way on the d20 system... eventually I either won, or they haven't noticed again.
So, while I can see what you're getting at, I'm just not sure enough of the wider audience understands what the SIEGE Engine is at all, let alone knows what system to link it to. Most people would call C&C an AD&D Clone based on d20 rather than a SIEGE Engine game...

Not really sure who's argument all that serves, but I think showing off SIEGE Engine as separate from C&C can only help TLG...

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Fri May 07, 2010 5:53 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
cheeplives wrote:
Not really sure who's argument all that serves, but I think showing off SIEGE Engine as separate from C&C can only help TLG...



Hey we agree!
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Fri May 07, 2010 8:11 pm
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Unkbartig
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Post Re: StarSiege Relaunch
Quote:
Piperdog wrote:
1. Appearance of Product- ...
2. Layout- ....
3. Support- This is a huge thing, and a huge factor in why it has not risen to its potential. This should have had a steady stream of supplemental materials churned out for it, including setting stuff, compilations of weapons, ships, and so on. I don't fault anyone on this, as TLG is a small publisher with only so much manpower to spread around (and quite frankly, if I have to choose, I want TLG focusing on C&C and Airhde stuff).



For me, 1 and 2 are intertwined. Great art can't help sucky layout and great layout can do only so much with sucky art.

I agree that support, even in the box, could have been stronger. Though it's subjective, the campaign setting didn't grab me, so it that was space that could have been used for even more toys and monsters.

Sometimes, it's better to hint at the world while you provide game material, (like calling a pistol the "Margovian Disintegrator"), and provide several weapons than talk about the world for a few pages and provide only two firearms.


Sat May 08, 2010 4:01 pm
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Hlobane Orc
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The fact that you had to cut so much from the box explains a lot (I personly quite liked V. 2442 and would have loved to have seen more). The idea that building trappings is a pain, I think, is more a product of this being a shiny new rules system to people. I've personally run into a few glitches running a game when trappings are made off the top of my head and then some rules question (the items class and effects by class is often the stumper) comes up later as they are used. I've had a few problems running SS 'a la carte' as well (including a very anti-climactic use of the kensington cannon; it only does one damage to a ship/object by the rules), but I found it to on the whole work well. The game could have used more pre-made trappings, perhaps organized by sci-fi genre, to get players started and give them a greater amount of examples for building. Perhaps also a section on running different genres as a jumping off point for campaign building. I know that the idea of 'trappings books' was brought up and it is unfortunate that this never took off. Perhaps these could be reworked into some sort of adventure/setting/trappings in one books. These could be done for different genres (one for cyber, one for space opera...ect.). I really think SS would benefit from pre-made adventures to get people rolling and including new settings/trappings would be killer.

I really hope SS can be brought back as it is a great game and in my experience plays very well. I have so far been able to run; a straight 2442 game, a 'star warsish' game from just the stuff in the field manual, a cyber game, a post apocalyptic game, and have even tinkered with a (golden age) super hero game idea. It's a very good system worthy of a relaunch and hopefully I'll be paging through a full Victory 2442 setting book in the near future.


Sun May 09, 2010 6:01 am
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Ungern

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Quote:
serleran wrote:
If there is one good thing about the discussion, it is that people want to see it succeed.



This is exactly the reason why I'm running the game at GenCon this year. This is a very intriguing system that is best served by being played. I have a few too many games on my shelf that sit in my "Mulling Queue", where I think way too much about planning to run it, what will it be like to run it, and then never run it, but always wish I had. This game is now getting my attention in practical application and I wanted to share the love.

My biggest agreement to the points expressed on this board go toward the presentation and layout comments. The organization and level of attractiveness of the books in the box set are not enticing in the same way that many other RPGs are and take a small effort to read through. This says a lot when I'm approaching my RPG collection and the various titles are yelling, "Read Me". Good layout and evocative art have pulled me through far less deserving text. Any relaunch needs to address this as it's first priority.

I'm less put off by the complaints of more examples needed. Although, I'd like some more power examples (psionics, mutations, cybernetics), what has been provided seems sufficient to simply throw on the table and play. I don't feel like any less has been given then most core versions of Traveller I have. Further support would definately help at any rate (I'm always fond of "Fleet Books" for any Sci-Fi RPG).


Fri May 14, 2010 11:19 am
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Red Cap
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Quote:
Rhuvein wrote:
Btw, what happened with the module Another Fine Mess? Anyone know?

Thanks.



It was released, it was rather good, and a copy's tucked away safely in my StarSIEGE box.

I have to say that I really enjoyed the system, and once you get your head around its approach*, it's bloody good fun. Every game has a niggle, and this game's single niggle for me was laughably small (the Personal move rate- that means average Joe goes at the rate of an olympic sprinter, but it's a tiny thing in play)

But I'm a Universe builder by obsession, so making stuff up was easy for me. Examples are always fun, though, and I find that a beastie appendix featuring a bunch of ordinary animals and the like is a great key when the GM is making up his or her own stuff.

Now, Traveller's niggle gets me far more- why does a game that claims the mantle of "firm" science constantly renew its membership in the Flat Universe Society?

*Most games ask "How do I simulate this?", while SS asks "How do I administrate this?". I found it cool. But I'm a bit strange, so it might just be me.

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Sun May 23, 2010 3:46 pm
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Oh, and another thought occurs, while I'm writing.

I won't be at UKGamesExpo this year, but next year I hope to be.

And I'll be running StarSIEGE there.

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Sun May 23, 2010 3:49 pm
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Hlobane Orc

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I just ordered my copy and I am really excited about this game. If there is a re-lease for it in a solid book, I am so down and I would be willing to pick it up.

I would keep the idea of including 2 d20 special dice for the setting, I like the idea of setting style dice. That is just me though. Eh.


Thu Jul 08, 2010 1:45 am
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Quote:
cheeplives wrote:
If I were to undertake such an endeavour, what would people want to see in the game that it currently lacks? What changes (if any) would they want to see in the game?



An index, a cleaner layout and a little more explanation of the Trappings system for us dummies. That's it.

Seriously, I really like this game.

Incidentlly -- this is my first post to any gaming forum in...man, in months.


Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:17 pm
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The DR. is back!

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Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:41 pm
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The DR. is back!

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Thu Sep 09, 2010 12:24 am
Unkbartig
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The next time around, I would prefer to see it as a hardcover. That would rock.
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Fri Sep 24, 2010 4:22 pm
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Lore Drake
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Quote:
Piperdog wrote:
The next time around, I would prefer to see it as a hardcover. That would rock.



If so an added world would be good. I happen to like the boxed set, mostly because of the 4 Field Manuals that came with it.
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Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:43 pm
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Hlobane Orc

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I support Starsiege when possible, I was awaiting an official setting expansion and something more "coloured" but it was never there, the setting can be done even by third parties if TLG has not enough time for hat.


Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:19 pm
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Mist Elf

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I got the quickstart version for free RPG day at my FLGS. I was displeased with the product, because I was hoping for a game that meshed more closely with C&C. That is to say, a sci-fi version of C&C, using the same ability scores, SIEGE mechanics to replaces skill systems (which I loathe), etc. It's not a bad game, to be sure- just not what I was expecting or what I wanted as a companion to my C&C books.

Support for the game, apart from adventure modules, is not an issue for me as I prefer to create my own campaign settings, creatures, and so on.


Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:22 pm
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Red Cap

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Quote:
Wordwarrior wrote:
I got the quickstart version for free RPG day at my FLGS. I was displeased with the product, because I was hoping for a game that meshed more closely with C&C. That is to say, a sci-fi version of C&C, using the same ability scores, SIEGE mechanics to replaces skill systems (which I loathe), etc. It's not a bad game, to be sure- just not what I was expecting or what I wanted as a companion to my C&C books.

Support for the game, apart from adventure modules, is not an issue for me as I prefer to create my own campaign settings, creatures, and so on.



the full version of the game has optional rules that will have the game hew more closely to C&C. There are rules for more "level-based" progression (removing skills and using Professions and a "Competence Level" instead), hit dice, attributes, etc.

Sorry it wasn't "C&C in Space", but I wanted to design a game to show how robust the SIEGE Engine can be... That, and I truly believe that the needs of Sci-Fi games differ greatly from the needs of a Fantasy game.
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Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:16 pm
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Mist Elf

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No need to apologize for standing by your design philosophy, sir. As I said, it's a good game, just not what I was looking for. I wanted something more along the lines of, as you put it, "castles & crusades in space". But hey, I can't complain- I got the rules for free. Still, this is interesting...

Quote:
Quote:
the full version of the game has optional rules that will have the game hew more closely to C&C. There are rules for more "level-based" progression (removing skills and using Professions and a "Competence Level" instead), hit dice, attributes, etc.



I may have to consider investing in the full enchilada, if this is indeed the case.


Wed Nov 03, 2010 2:31 pm
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Here's some examples if it might help:

Quote:
Quote:
Specialties? Seems too fiddly to me!

Some groups might not like Specialties in their games. They might wish faster resolution, where the progression isnt as tied to very specific rolls. In these cases, the players can choose to drop Specialties and replace them with a Competence Score. A characters Competence score tracks additional training and advancement gained through the game sessions. Instead of spending XP on buying new Specialties, the player can spend 9 XP to increase their Competence score by 1. Using this option removes Specialties from the game (except for those granted as Special Abilities from Alien species, Psionics, or from equipment).

A characters Competence score is added to any rolls that falls within the purview of the characters Profession. The SIEGE Engineer and player should work together to decide what does and does not fall within the characters Profession. A characters Competence score should always be added to rolls for which the character has a Skill Bundle. Competence is not necessarily tied to Skill Bundles, however. It should be added on a case-by-case basis to non-Primary Skill Bundle checks according to the character's Profession/concept.

Competence is also used to determine the characters Defense Scores. A character can add of their Competence score (rounding down) to both of their Defense scores. Thus, a character with a Competence of 7 would add 3 to both their Combat and Psyche Defense scores. If the character has either the Combat or Spiritual Skill Bundles, they can add their full Competence score to the appropriate Defense score.



Quote:
Quote:
So, how many Hit Points do I have?

Many games use Hit Points as a manner of determining a character's Health. StarSIEGE: Event Horizon's Wound and Stress Tracks are merely simplified Hit Points, with each character getting 4 Hit Points and 3 "negative hit points". Some groups may wish to use a more traditional Hit Point mechanic in their games.

In these cases, each character starts with 2d6 in Hit Points. If the character has any of the following Skill Bundles then bump the Hit Die type up one level (d6 to d8, d8 to d10, and d10 to d12; to a maximum of a d12 hit die type): Combat, Athletics, Environmental, or Spiritual. Each Skill Bundle the character has will increase the Hit Die type, so a character with both the Athletics and Spiritual Bundles would have a d10 Hit Die. Furthermore, a character gains +1 Hit Die for every bonus in their Physique Attribute. More Wound Hit Dice cost 6 XP.

Stress Hit Dice start at 2d6 and are upgraded just like Wound Hit Dice except they go off of the following Skill Bundles: Awareness, Combat, Persuasion, or Spiritual. For every bonus point in the Confidence Attribute, the character gains a bonus starting Hit Die. Additional Stress Hit Dice cost 6 XP as well.

A character is considered "Disabled" if they are between 0 and -5 or Hit Points, "Down" if they are between -6 and -10 Hit Points, and are "Out" at -11 or more Hit Points.

Items are considered to have 1d6 of Hit Points with each level of Durability adding +4 to that total. An Armor Rating on a character has its rating multiplied by 3 and serves as damage reduction for incoming attacks. So a 3 Armor item reduces all incoming attacks by 9 points. Armor can still only reduce a number of attacks equal to one plus the Durability of the armor (as per the normal armor rules in the Operations Manual, see the SIEGE Engineer for more details). Weapons and items do 1d8 damage base for every Wound listed in their description.



As far as the Attributes, the ones in the game are pretty much completely interchangable. I used the ones in the game because I felt the 2-Mental, 2-Social, and 2-Physical split did a better job mirrioring sci-fi. There's really nothing in the game that would prevent the use of the Traditional 6... it's pretty obvious where Phsyique would be used you'd use either Con or Str depending on the situation... Knowledge is mostly Int, Reflexes are Dex, Savvy is a bit of Wisdom and Int (depending on situation), Confidence is Charisma, and Empathy is either Wisdom or Charisma.
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Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:05 pm
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Mist Elf

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Thanks. This gives me a much clearer idea of how the game works when converting to a more traditional HP system.


Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:33 pm
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Unkbartig
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Random thought during these economic times...

How about a "digest version" that retails for $10? I don't think it's hurt Savage Tales RPG and WotC is taking a stab at the same sort of publication.


Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:56 pm
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Unkbartig
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Digest size could be cool, but it would have to be full color, like Savage Worlds, with a hell of a layout. If it were to remain black and white, I would vouch for a hardcover. Speaking of which, I still say this relaunch should happen.
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