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Discuss other TLG SIEGE Engine games other than C&C, such as StarSIEGE, in this forum.
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Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:19 am

Hey, Josh, don't get discouraged, dude.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue Sep 25, 2012 12:31 am

I've got to say that I think the skill groups and specializations work great the way they are. Most anything else would make it more complicated. And the Siege engine seems to emphasize simplicity and ease of use. I think its the most elegant part of StarSiege.

I think the point buy nature of the game make most people think that its more complicated than it is. I think another approach would be to make very broad classes that could be customized through options rather than points. Something like warrior, Expert, Adept. Each could have a few options to customize the role to taste.

I think a lot of people come to siege engine games for that simplicity and elegance, and point buy character creation is not what most people think of when they want simplicity.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:51 pm

I have to say by the sounds of this new edition it will be something I can truly get into. The first printing was just a tool box to me, one that I used with a couple of Traveller games I ran. Now it sounds like its going to be something I will want to use as written, especially since I have some ideas that combine things from Traveller, Eclipse Phase and Cthulhu Tech, and I now think this new version of Star SIEGE will be the "Rosetta Stone" of RPG's that I want to use like I use C&C for my fantasy stuff.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:12 pm

A couple of friends and I were fortunate enough to playtest on the original. With some improvements, changes, and a makeover, it could really get the attention it deserves. Need any playtesters this time?? :-)

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:20 pm

Gonna do my next video review about this game methinks, and mention the eventual relaunch, try to spread word of mouth... :)

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:44 pm

I really like StarSiege, While I look forward to a second edition I'm really glad I got my hands on the first version of the game. Options are always good in my opinion.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue Oct 30, 2012 6:04 pm

I posted my video review here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12664 :)

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:00 pm

treant_on_fire wrote:I posted my video review here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=12664 :)

I'll take a look. Thanks.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:54 am

Hello all,

The thought of a 2nd edition of StarSIEGE and some of the ideas that Josh has been posting intrigued me enough to open up the box again and start playing with the toolkit. Despite buying the game over a year ago, reading it and coming back to it repeatedly, this is the first time I've actually printed out character sheets and started trying to really grok the system.

My first impression when I read the game was the standard, "This looks like an awesome toolkit, but it doesn't have enough to play out of the box." I've read a few of Josh's responses, though, and when I actually look at all the material, there is a hell of a lot there! So, I've asked myself, "Why didn't you play this the first time around?"

I keep coming back to the presentation, although, honestly, even THAT isn't that bad! So what is the problem?

After much considering, I thought I'd sign up to the forums and make my brilliant suggestion: ditch the one letter system for StarSIEGE, format the Trappings and characters into nice summary boxes (a la Pathfinder Basic Box) and spell out what each of the Trappings really means. I know this sounds goofy as hell, but I think that the stats, with their: P R K S C E, the vehicles with their C M S Q, planets with M I C E C L and, most of all, Trappings with R S T V and special abilities with P D X, just confuse the hell out of people. And yes, I may be overstating the case here, but as I'm coming here out of the blue to try and help a game system that I've really come to like, I hope you'll take it in the spirit that it's meant.

Anyways, that's it for now. Again, I'm incredibly happy to hear that SS:EH will have a new edition and the moment it shows up, consider it pre-ordered.

Cheers!

CG7

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:21 am

Cgeist7 wrote:
After much considering, I thought I'd sign up to the forums and make my brilliant suggestion: ditch the one letter system for StarSIEGE, format the Trappings and characters into nice summary boxes (a la Pathfinder Basic Box) and spell out what each of the Trappings really means. I know this sounds goofy as hell, but I think that the stats, with their: P R K S C E, the vehicles with their C M S Q, planets with M I C E C L and, most of all, Trappings with R S T V and special abilities with P D X, just confuse the hell out of people.



I second this! I read thru the rules when it came out and frankly couldn't remember what all the one letter abbreviations meant a day later! I know I'm getting old, but at least add a few more letters so it is easier to remember what it stands for. Come on, help a guy out!

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:55 pm

Hypothetical question:

How upset would people be if the Fashioning/Trapping System got a major overhaul. Like, so much so that all previous build-outs would be pretty much null and void?

Just trying to get an idea on how attached people are to it. I've been thinking of streamlining the system, but doing so would likely require a major overhaul.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:39 pm

cheeplives wrote:Hypothetical question:

How upset would people be if the Fashioning/Trapping System got a major overhaul. Like, so much so that all previous build-outs would be pretty much null and void?

Just trying to get an idea on how attached people are to it. I've been thinking of streamlining the system, but doing so would likely require a major overhaul.


Hey Josh,

Hmmn... That's a tough one. I've recently spend a lot of time with the Trappings/Fashioning system and think it is great. If something works well, I'd think twice about fixing it.

That said, if you've come up with something that is genuinely superior, I'd hate to put a brake on that because of the old system. Would the outcome be the same? Would you be able to use items from the previous system or is it a total re-write? Is there an option to have the streamlined system as an alternate rule or appendix, or is this all or nothing?

Care to explain more about your new system?

Thanks!

CG7

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:18 pm

Good questions.

I am not really invested in the system as is, so I personally would be fine with a total rewrite.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:47 am

Josh, just curious as to how far along in the re-write are you? I was looking at my SSEH today and thinking about it for an eventual game.

R-

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:09 pm

cheeplives wrote:Hypothetical question:

How upset would people be if the Fashioning/Trapping System got a major overhaul. Like, so much so that all previous build-outs would be pretty much null and void?

Just trying to get an idea on how attached people are to it. I've been thinking of streamlining the system, but doing so would likely require a major overhaul.


Dude, i love the trappings system as is but if you think there is a better way then i trust your decision.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:59 am

I got the first edition, So redoing it would be fine by me. That will give me options as to how I want to use it. I mean I can run either way.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:15 pm

I find it ironic that people complain about starsiege because its a toolbox for telling their own stories and not enough cannon or designed setting for their liking. But this same complaint is the same thing that people love about OD&D, S&W and to some extent C&C. its like here are the tools for making your own sword and sorcery stories and people are all about it and in love with the game. Give them the same tool for a sci-fi setting and they complain there is not enough story and background.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:28 pm

mordrene wrote:I find it ironic that people complain about starsiege because its a toolbox for telling their own stories and not enough cannon or designed setting for their liking. But this same complaint is the same thing that people love about OD&D, S&W and to some extent C&C. its like here are the tools for making your own sword and sorcery stories and people are all about it and in love with the game. Give them the same tool for a sci-fi setting and they complain there is not enough story and background.

I don't think it is so much the story aspect that people had a problem with, as just being able to open the box and go without having to make a bunch of stuff first.

R-

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:32 pm

Plus the layout made it hard to be useful.

R-

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Mon May 20, 2013 4:31 pm

mordrene wrote:I find it ironic that people complain about starsiege because its a toolbox for telling their own stories and not enough cannon or designed setting for their liking. But this same complaint is the same thing that people love about OD&D, S&W and to some extent C&C. its like here are the tools for making your own sword and sorcery stories and people are all about it and in love with the game. Give them the same tool for a sci-fi setting and they complain there is not enough story and background.

A toolbox is good but I'm not sure you are right about starsiege being the same tools as C&C but for a sci-fi setting. I debated doing a one shot Star Wars game for May 4th. I don't have C&C or starsiege. I'm confident I could run a one-shot C&C fairly easily due to it's simple mechanics and similarity to other d20 games. Creating pre-gens for the game or even having character creation before the game would probably be fine. The reviews of starsiege make that sound less likely. Without classes and having to build racial/class features and equipments, it sounds like it would be more complex. Maybe it provides enough examples that it isn't a problem. Even so just explaining what everything does to a new player looked like more work that C&C. In the end it didn't seem like starsiege would be a good system for a one shot.

Granted I don't own the game. This is based off of reviews I've read.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Mon May 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Yeah, even Traveller has tons and tons of equipment, vehicles, ships and weapons done up for me, as well as has a "build system", because it saves me time. Most of their gear, etc... is either good as is, or so close I just have to do a little bit of tweaking, to make it work for what I want. With SS I have to spend too much time building too much of what I need from the ground up.

So I want it in SS like I have it in Traveller, both ways. Plenty of premade stuff I can just pick and run, as well as a build system for when I really need something specific, and have the time to do the "building".

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue May 21, 2013 5:08 am

Treebore wrote:Yeah, even Traveller has tons and tons of equipment, vehicles, ships and weapons done up for me, as well as has a "build system", because it saves me time. Most of their gear, etc... is either good as is, or so close I just have to do a little bit of tweaking, to make it work for what I want. With SS I have to spend too much time building too much of what I need from the ground up.

So I want it in SS like I have it in Traveller, both ways. Plenty of premade stuff I can just pick and run, as well as a build system for when I really need something specific, and have the time to do the "building".


Its actually one of the reasons I have not been able to sell a game of SS to my players. With C&C and AA my players choose a class and or race, Buy some gear and off we play.

As much as I appreciate the ability to design anything I want with points, Its not really the game we like to play. We did our time with point buy systems (Hero, Gurps, ect ect).

I did come up with my own way of using SS that is more palatable to my group. Prime abilities are chosen just like in C&C and AA. Based on the profession chosen some skills groups are nominated as Class skills like those in C&C. Rather than choosing prime skill groups.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Tue May 21, 2013 1:32 pm

Ronin77 wrote:
Treebore wrote:Yeah, even Traveller has tons and tons of equipment, vehicles, ships and weapons done up for me, as well as has a "build system", because it saves me time. Most of their gear, etc... is either good as is, or so close I just have to do a little bit of tweaking, to make it work for what I want. With SS I have to spend too much time building too much of what I need from the ground up.

So I want it in SS like I have it in Traveller, both ways. Plenty of premade stuff I can just pick and run, as well as a build system for when I really need something specific, and have the time to do the "building".


Its actually one of the reasons I have not been able to sell a game of SS to my players. With C&C and AA my players choose a class and or race, Buy some gear and off we play.

As much as I appreciate the ability to design anything I want with points, Its not really the game we like to play. We did our time with point buy systems (Hero, Gurps, ect ect).

I did come up with my own way of using SS that is more palatable to my group. Prime abilities are chosen just like in C&C and AA. Based on the profession chosen some skills groups are nominated as Class skills like those in C&C. Rather than choosing prime skill groups.

I didn't mind the skill based approach, heck, I kind of wanted to use it for a fantasy type game. My problem with SS is the layout, period. There is several different options in the books, but it's hard to tell because everything is jumbled in with the "how to build it" stuff so you lose sight of the examples. The "build it" stuff should have been in an appendix and the examples should have been in an equipment section. Hopefully we'll see a better (more standard) layout with a re-launch, because I'd really like to give this game a run, whether in a sci-fi game or a fantasy game.

R-

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Mar 20, 2014 1:48 pm

Ronin77 wrote:I did come up with my own way of using SS that is more palatable to my group. Prime abilities are chosen just like in C&C and AA. Based on the profession chosen some skills groups are nominated as Class skills like those in C&C. Rather than choosing prime skill groups.

I'd be interested in see this as I've been thinking of doing something similar.

R-

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:06 pm

Not to complain and I'm happy that AA is doing well enough to get a second "revised" printing, but it would be nice to see something done with StarSIEGE. It is such a great game at it's core and it should get a new printing with revisions and maybe some other support.

And Let's see Victorious! get a 1st printing.

Come on Trolls.

R-

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:10 am

It sounds like from recent posts for it to move forward it has to get some major alignment into being like the other Starseige Engined games.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:39 am

I agree with Rigon that Trolllord Games needs to redo StarSIEGE and produce Victorious.

JLL

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:07 am

I think leveraging Amazing Adventures is the way forward for C&C in space. I'd like to see:

A book with nearly the same information as Amazing Adventures, in the same order.
Totally new classes, preferably 13 like C&C to cover many space/future scenarios, but with an express focus on space adventurers, so, exploration, combat, trading, ship battles; this narrows things down and keeps it from needing to be a generic system for any kind of SF. In essence, Amazing Adventures that take place in Space.
A few ideas would be Spacer, Trader, Engineer, Medic, Soldier.
All classes would have some combat training so the ship's navigator didn't just have to plot warp vectors all the time.
Many of the AA weapons already work, but extend the list to some common future weapons like other space games have; lasers, slugthrowers, needlers, whatever.
Magic is probably psionics by default, but magic items would be technological. This is a large undertaking, but a good percentage of magic items could have a space equivalent. A +2 laser pistol is just a better laser pistol. A ring of invisibility throws up a light bending hologram, etc. Wondrous items can be extended to common sci fi items, and might be made with similar crafting rules.
Psionics can depend on a "spellbook", that is a cybernetic device that holds reality manipulating programs. How many the psion can manipulate depends on his or her experience, basically exactly the same as spells/level.
Clerics can use something like "the force".
Ship to ship combat can be SIEGE based too, and might borrow from Fields of Battle.
I wouldn't recommend a secondary skill system as class abilities and ad hoc SIEGE checks are simpler.
It could be a supplement to AA, but may as well be a full book with all of the rules repeated in it.
Should be a setting, but bare minimums. Maybe than races would be suggestions on racial abilities, racial modifiers, choosing a prime, etc and a few random tables to get ideas rolling. Though in the interest of letting the CK hit the ground running several should be included. But humans should be the strong default.

Games like Stars Without Number and X-Plorers do well as D&D in Space, and I think AA would be a good basis for the C&C version.

And I'd say we should just create the whole thing in a new thread, but I think that'd greatly decrease the chances of getting it in print. And I wonder if this is already being written anyway.

I appreciate the Star SIEGE effort, and now that I've looked at Traveller 5 I can appreciate the item building systems, but this is something different that I could just pick up and play. I take Star SIEGE out of the box sometimes, start to do something, and then put it back and play Star Frontiers. I know C&C-in-Space isn't the intent of Star SIEGE, but for those that would like that, I'd love to see it even if it meant TLG had two space games.

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:34 pm

I don't think a total rewrite of StarSIEGE is necessary, just a reorganization of the material and more trappings. I have looked at SS a lot and for a skills based game is very, very good. It's just hard to find things in the current layout. Heck, I've even started working on a fantasy game using SS and will eventually run a fantasy campaign with it. I may even have to completely reorganize the material myself to do it, but some day I'm gonna run that skills based game I want to run.

R-

Re: StarSiege Relaunch

Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:10 pm

As far as I've been in touch with Steve at GenCon, I will probably be bowing out of this project. Steve wants to hew more closely to the other SIEGE Engine games and I feel like that is both a disservice to the SIEGE Engine and to the first edition of StarSIEGE. But, I completely understand the logic behind such a decision by the Troll Lords and support it 100%.

To rewrite StarSIEGE to hew more closely to the other SIEGE Engine games is a daunting task and one that I don't have the bandwidth nor interest in doing. StarSIEGE was its own beast and I liked writing it as it was. To create a class-based system closer to C&C or AA with the openness that StarSIEGE had in it would require a complete re-working of every subsystem in the game. The Trapping system alone (probably the most liked part of StarSIEGE) would require a massive redesign effort.

So, unless some huge inspiration strikes me or the Troll Lords change their mind, I'm likely abandoning all work on 2nd Edition StarSIEGE.
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