SIEGE Works?

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:37 pm

Purposeful use of an intriguing and alluring thread topic.
I'm just wondering what the possibility of a generic, GURPS-like, SIEGE game would be? I know, for financial and risk reasons, it probably isn't a good idea. These days it doesn't seem prudent for a small/medium press company to put all their eggs into one basket with an all-in-one type game and dividing it up into genres - pulp, sci-fi, fantasy, etc - using (virtually the) same mechanic would probably be more profitable. But maybe once the Trolls have explored all their options and genres they wanted to explore maybe they could release a generic (again, in the spirit of BRP, Savage Worlds, GURPS, and the like) rulesset. I think that would be awesome, and definitely on my buy list.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:27 pm

Indeed. I would support such a product.

And I don't think it would be that difficult to create either.
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:03 pm

MacLeod wrote:
And I don't think it would be that difficult to create either.

Indeed. But, and I mean no disrespect when I say this, I figure the Trolls would probably make more money releasing a PulpSIEGE, a SuperSIEGE, a Sci-FiSIEGE, etcSIEGE, over one product that would cover all said genres. I think the only way to do it without losing too much money would be to make the generic core book and then make genre books covering each facet. But I think there'd have to be enough info in the Core book to cover the genres so one doesn't have to buy the genre books. Basically the same model other companies use who make generic rpg systems (GURPS, Savage Worlds, HERO, for example). Maybe the "generic market" is too well covered already?
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Coleston the Cavalier · Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:12 pm

GENERIC SIEGE RPG
_________________

John Adams

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:28 pm

With all the various siege games coming out, something like this is already occurring. After all, there's nothing preventing anyone from using all the various systems together. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:35 pm

gideon_thorne wrote:
With all the various siege games coming out, something like this is already occurring. After all, there's nothing preventing anyone from using all the various systems together. ^_~`

That's true, Peter, and that was kind of what I was thinking. My reasoning was something geared towards a game that's not out and not on the schedule (at least as it appears to the masses ), like a modern horror or an old west game. Sure flavor text can be ignored and mechanic for one game used in another genre, but I, for one, would like to see a genre-free core rpg book. Even if all the genre speific rpgs come out first.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:35 pm

Indeed. It may even be wiser to produce the various genre games and then a master conversion document to provide tools for those using different games together. The major issue is, as it stands now, the genres only share the core component -- the SIEGE Engine -- and nothing else. StarSIEGE is essentially classless, and Victorious! is as well, or was, when I last saw the playtest manuscript. That makes direct conversion to C&C (for those unwilling or unable) to do the "conversion" difficult. That is one reason why my R&R game will have a C&C conversion pdf available for free so people can play either, and both, together.
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:36 pm

I love genre mixing myself... Post-Apocalyptic and Fantasy is one I've always wanted to do.
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 10:54 pm

MacLeod wrote:
I love genre mixing myself... Post-Apocalyptic and Fantasy is one I've always wanted to do.

Sounds like Thundarr the Barbarian, to me.
I think it'll be possible, but not from one book, more's the pity. Most likely, we'll be mixing games to mix genres...at least not for a while.
***Trying to sound hopeless as to garner pity with the Trolls in hopes of getting the GENERIC SIEGE RPG produced ***
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:29 pm

Another problem is one of genre flavor. Archetypal classes and more hp at higher levels works for fantasy. It can also work for space opera while hindering the game as the scifi gets harder. The SIEGE Engine itself is solid, but its application to emulate the genre should be the limiting factor in cross-genre use.

Some specific examples of genre-based rules conflicts. Does armor provide general defense (makes you harder to hit) or does it reduce damage? Archetypal classes or free-form character (perhaps with archetype packages)? Hit points as a holistic measure of defense or specifically as life points independent of defensive skills?

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:37 pm

But TLG already made this product.

It's called StarSiege, and despite it's Sci-Fi name you can use it for whatever genre you want. Tools built in to make it happen.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 11:47 pm

DangerDwarf wrote:
But TLG already made this product.

It's called StarSiege, and despite it's Sci-Fi name you can use it for whatever genre you want. Tools built in to make it happen.

This is true. Josh even wrote an article for Crusader showing how to make some of the C&C classes work for it.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:14 am

Give me this StarSIEGE you speak of.
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:16 am

MacLeod wrote:
Give me this StarSIEGE you speak of.

You can find info on it on the main page of the TLG site. ^_~`
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:19 am

Here Ya Go

Brilliant thing about StarSIEGE is that in order to be able to do any Sci-Fi sub-genre, it allows you to pretty much use it for any genre.

I've got around 1, 452 ideas for SS stuff I'll probably never have a chance to get too.

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:45 am

DangerDwarf wrote:
Here Ya Go

Brilliant thing about StarSIEGE is that in order to be able to do any Sci-Fi sub-genre, it allows you to pretty much use it for any genre.

I've got around 1, 452 ideas for SS stuff I'll probably never have a chance to get too.

So, in your (or anyone with more knowledge of SS than me - I have it, just haven't delved into it, yet), how easy is it really to do other genres of play? A major rehauling of the rules? An afternoon of conversions? Somewhere in between?

And paladin makes some good points. d20 was a major contributor. For being a system that was universal, it had about a dozen different variations that, though seemingly minor, required a lot more adjustment than met the eye (thinking of three games by one company that look similar, but are in fact very different - SWRPG, D&D 3.5, and d20 Modern from WotC).
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:55 am

I could run a 2009 military strike force going into a town overun with zombies almost straight out of the book. Just need to stat up the zombies.

I could run a recon squad in vietnam straight out of the book.

There are enough guns and cyberware I could do a cyberpunk game right out of the book and add more depth gear wise as we play.

Supers? Dobale with some minor work I reckon. Not my thing though so I dunno.

POst apocalyptic? Thrown in a few mutations more mutations and go straight out the book.

MacLeod · Post by **MacLeod** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:56 am

I mean... give it to me. For free. Or pay me to take it.

Yes, that last one... let us do that.
_________________
In this world of LIES... the TRUTH, it means RESISTANCE!

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:57 am

Rules really don't have much to do with genre. Otherwise there wouldn't be all these systemless settings around, like Freeport.

But with Star Siege, one can make weapons, creatures, and powers for any genre. You don't have to 'convert' anything. You just need to write up the items, creatures, and setting you want.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:03 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Rules really don't have much to do with genre. Otherwise there wouldn't be all these systemless settings around, like Freeport.

But with Star Siege, one can make weapons, creatures, and powers for any genre. You don't have to 'convert' anything. You just need to write up the items, creatures, and setting you want.

Sorr, I guess I wasn't very clear. I meant the statting up part. It seems like there's a decent base of things already statted, with a little work needing to be done by the GM. I didn't think any conversion to another system was necessary, unless one wated to convert from C&C - and hopefully that ain't too hard.
_________________
LD's C&C creations - the witch, a half-ogre, skill and 0-level rules

Troll Lord wrote:
Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:05 am

Yup, what Pete said.

Gear-wise, SS has alot more than most folks realize too. There's not reallymuch you need to build.

Armors range from Hide to futureistic.

Weapons range from slug throwers to laser blasters and more.

You've got swords, clubs, vibroblades.

Cyberware? Armor, reflexes, cyber limbs, etc.

Vehicles? Got them too. A "crawler" is a catch all for land based vehicles be it a truck, jeep, car, etc. I don't need 53 car stats with minor variations. I can give them names for differences.

You have more than enough tools to play any genre. Plus the toolbox to build anything you want to add.

It'as a myth that SS isn't playable out of the box. It is EXTREMELY playable out of the box for umpteen diferent genres.

DangerDwarf · Post by **DangerDwarf** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:07 am

I would like to see SS made into a single hardback though.

Twould be sweeeeeeeeet.

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:11 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
Rules really don't have much to do with genre. Otherwise there wouldn't be all these systemless settings around, like Freeport.

I disagree. D&D is very poor at emulating the duels of samurai movies. Legend of the Five Rings is much better becasue the rules were designed that way. I would say the same of Star Wars; WEG's d6 system is a much better fit to the reality of Uncle George's vision than shoehorning that reality into a d20 model.

The rules are subordinate to the realities of the setting. They should be changed to meet that. SIEGE is a good system and doesn't seem as tied to the class/level paradigm the way most of d20 is. I see no reason why it can't flex to meet the needs of a setting.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:18 am

paladin2019 wrote:
I disagree. D&D is very poor at emulating the duels of samurai movies. Legend of the Five Rings is much better becasue the rules were designed that way. I would say the same of Star Wars; WEG's d6 system is a much better fit to the reality of Uncle George's vision than shoehorning that reality into a d20 model.

The rules are subordinate to the realities of the setting. They should be changed to meet that. SIEGE is a good system and doesn't seem as tied to the class/level paradigm the way most of d20 is. I see no reason why it can't flex to meet the needs of a setting.

Ok. I'll rephrase. Rules have nothing to do with any setting I run. Which can be anything from dark fantasy to high science. In my very long years of experience, good players and a setting make what rules are used entirely irrelevant. Various groups I have played with routinely switched characters across a wide variety of systems and back again, with the same setting, and different ones, without a bobble.
And I never had a problem emulating a samurai duel in D&D.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

paladin2019 · Post by **paladin2019** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:01 pm

You're absolutely right. BTB, AD&D allows for killing a 5th level fighter with a single sword blow. No tinkering or house rules necessary. In fact, every system is perfect for every genre with no work whatsoever. I can't believe I was so naive to think that different genres operate under different realities and any old system can simulate them.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:19 pm

paladin2019 wrote:
You're absolutely right. BTB, AD&D allows for killing a 5th level fighter with a single sword blow.

Actually, yes, its been a long time since AD&D, but I believe we used a save vs death.

And I never said tinkering wasn't necessary. I just said any system will work with any genre with a willingness of players and game master cooperation.
_________________
"We'll go out through the kitchen!" Tanis Half-Elven

Peter Bradley

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Fri Feb 06, 2009 11:33 pm

I may take a closer look at the toolkit notion and see if I can't come up with something to run an Arcology SIEGE. Maybe that'll get my players interested in Shadowrun...
_________________
If it matters, leave a message at the beep.
Serl's Corner

Thoom · Post by **Thoom** » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:52 pm

I have StarSiege but haven't read it through carefully yet, just skimmed over the rules. It doesn't *feel* like the same basic rules as C&C Siege Engine to me. What I mean is that I expected it to be much more 'familiar.' Maybe I missed something, as I said I didn't read all of it. Anyone else feels like that?
_________________
Deakin Thunderstruck, Lord of The White Heron
C&C Society

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:53 am

Yup.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:29 am

StarSIEGE: Event Horizon is *not* the same basic rules as C&C. It is my interpretation on making a generic SIEGE Engine game. C&C is a d20 game, StarSIEGE is a SIEGE Engine game in its purist sense. I wanted to showcase the SIEGE Engine rather than keep the trappings of d20 and D&D.

So, in a sense, StarSIEGE *is* a generic take on the SIEGE Engine, but it's not C&C. C&C has different trappings than a generic SIEGE Engine game could... different approaches and all that.
_________________
discreteinfinity.com -- my little corner of the internet.

Author of StarSIEGE: Event Horizon -- Available now from Troll Lord Games!

Troll Lord Games

SIEGE Works?

SIEGE Works?

Re: SIEGE Works?

Re: SIEGE Works?