C&C Core Books, Perfect Bound, Color Plates

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moriarty777
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Post by moriarty777 »

Breakdaddy wrote:
Great news for a lot of you cats that are now able to enjoy the 4th crusade stuff! My Tainted Lands game last Saturday was played with the new books but sadly only one of the 5 PCs in that game was using a tweaked class (a monk in this case). I would love to see a new barbarian or the pumped up new illusionist with his nice healing secondary abilities in action, but I'm sure that will be seen soon enough. Game on!

Ok... this caught my attention. I will hopefully have my softbound PHB waiting for me when I get home tonight but assuming it's not -- someone has got to clarify that statement.

How or what is this secondary healing ability and, more importantly, the reasoning behind it. Inquiring CKs want to know.
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Post by Treebore »

Breakdaddy wrote:
As Tree said, it's through spells. More specifically, they gain access to the "cure" line of cleric spells and the "heal" spell, albeit at a much higher cost (heal is a level 9 Illusionist spell as opposed to the clerical version which is level what, 6 I think?). IMO, it makes the Illusionist a much greater force to be reckoned with.

Yes, and they don't start getting them until they gain access to their 4th level spells, for 3d8 of healing. I presume Illusionists heal via the power of belief.
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Post by Breakdaddy »

I'm no more certain of the reasoning behind it than Tree is, so take this for what it's worth. I think the Illusionist class had such a reduced utility when compared to the wizard, no one ever wanted to bother with them. So it seems that the reimagined Illusionist is more geared towards utility. The wizards utility is direct damage among other things. The Illusionist is more subtle, but his utility lies in the fact that he is a competent secondary healer. Personally, I like it. The wizard destroys and the Illusionist creates/repairs.

This could be particularly true if you are playing in Airhde and consider that perhaps the Illusionist has tapped into some minor aspect of the language of creation to perform his spells.
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Post by garydee »

Now that the illusionist is more potent, is his level advancement still faster than the wizard's?

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Post by Treebore »

garydee wrote:
Now that the illusionist is more potent, is his level advancement still faster than the wizard's?

Yes, still 150,000/level from 12th level on, compared to 250,000 for the Wizard, which is the same as the Fighter.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Breakdaddy wrote:
I'm no more certain of the reasoning behind it than Tree is, so take this for what it's worth. I think the Illusionist class had such a reduced utility when compared to the wizard, no one ever wanted to bother with them. So it seems that the reimagined Illusionist is more geared towards utility. The wizards utility is direct damage among other things. The Illusionist is more subtle, but his utility lies in the fact that he is a competent secondary healer. Personally, I like it. The wizard destroys and the Illusionist creates/repairs.

This could be particularly true if you are playing in Airhde and consider that perhaps the Illusionist has tapped into some minor aspect of the language of creation to perform his spells.

Under the section on Illusionists (in the Magic section) it 'spells' the rationale out clearly under the why's and wherefores on how illusions work. The mind is a powerful tool, and the illusionist is so adept at manipulating it, the character can convince the recipient to heal themselves.
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Post by garydee »

One last question for those who have the new PHB. Have you noticed any major change in any of the spells?

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Post by Omote »

Yes, but illusionist healing spells require an INT saving throw... if you make the saving throw, the recipient understands the healing power was all an illusion and is not cured of lost HP, etc. If the save fails the recipient heals the HP as per the spell. Wicked.

~O
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Post by serleran »

A character can fail any save whenever they desire (it may not be directly mentioned in the rules, but stands to reason that a person can purposefully fail,) so there is no reason to assume the illusionist will not be successful at any healing attempt, unless it is under guise as something else.
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Post by Omote »

serleran wrote:
A character can fail any save whenever they desire (it may not be directly mentioned in the rules, but stands to reason that a person can purposefully fail,) so there is no reason to assume the illusionist will not be successful at any healing attempt, unless it is under guise as something else.

Where as I would tend to agree with you, I'm not so sure this is exactly spelled out anywhere in the C&C PHB.

~O
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Post by Relaxo »

I think it's there somewhere, that you can fail a save on purpose or drop spell resistence on purpose (for a dwarf to receive a Strength spell for example)

but I htink the illusion healing is specifically called out as needing to fail this save, so since this is a specific instance, in my thinking, this would trump the general rule above.
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Post by Omote »

Relaxo wrote:
I think it's there somewhere, that you can fail a save on purpose or drop spell resistence on purpose (for a dwarf to receive a Strength spell for example)

Spell Resistance does state that you can voluntarily drop spell resistance in order to be affected by a spell, even in the 4th printing it states this. I'm still not so sure on Saving Throws. Please, if someone knows where this is in the PHB (any printing), please post so. Thanks.

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Post by garydee »

Relaxo wrote:
but I htink the illusion healing is specifically called out as needing to fail this save, so since this is a specific instance, in my thinking, this would trump the general rule above.

I hope that the Troll Lords throw that out. That's a horrible rule. The higher level the recipient is, the more likely it won't work. Ugh!

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Post by moriarty777 »

garydee wrote:
I hope that the Troll Lords throw that out. That's a horrible rule. The higher level the recipient is, the more likely it won't work. Ugh!

Well, if the illusionist never advances in level... sure. But in a party, if the illusionists levels up like the rest of them, it should work well enough.

However...

What if the person receiving the healing is convinced the person is a cleric to begin with?

Or... if the rule is simply problematic, why not just have the Illusionist make a siege check to see how well he pulls off the spell. Success meaning the spell works (CL being the level or HD of the target).

Plenty of ways to work around it.

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Post by Steerpike »

Omote wrote:
Where as I would tend to agree with you, I'm not so sure this is exactly spelled out anywhere in the C&C PHB.

~O

I don't know about the rationale of allowing that in this specific instance, though. For the illusion, the character has to be tricked into believing it. If the character is failing a save on purpose, then it sounds to me like he knows it is fake but 'deciding' to ignore that and go ahead and believe the illusion. In other words, by purposefully failing the INT save it doesn't seem like he really believes it, so it wouldn't work. It would only work when he fails a true save attempt and is really tricked by the illusion.
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Post by Breakdaddy »

In my games, there will be no need to save when healing magics are administered by the Illusionist. At the level they are required to achieve in order to cast even the least of their healing magics it would be a complete waste of a spell slot. As far as I'm concerned, the Illusionist is tapping into a minor portion of the language of creation and the healing magics are real enough to work on the recipient.
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Post by PayToFlay »

Lurker wrote:
Does anyone know if there are anymore copies left? I'm in a school in Az and have little free time and less access to the outside world (I'm in the base library right now & my cell doesn't work) so didnt get to cal in an order earlier.

If there are some left, ask the Troll lord to read the e-mail from me and I'll have the ceck in the mail ASAP!

In case no one responded, I called (and ordered) this morning. There were, to quote: "A few left lying around".

So I'd call quick.

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Post by Aladar »

I finally got my softcover PHB this weekend, of course the mailman folded the darn thing. Anyway, I have just glanced through, but so far I really like what I have seen. I like the multiclass options, the supporting class idea is fantastic! I really like the new illusionist spells and what they have done with the barbarian.

Excellent job Trolls!
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Post by jeffb »

So will the hardcover 4th print also have the color plates and same layout?
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Post by Omote »

TLG has said that the color plates will not be in the hardback release. Though I think the layout is going to be the same.

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Post by Breakdaddy »

The color plates are supposed to be a Trollcon exclusive (you guys have bought overflow product from that lineup). There are likely going to be no further color plate editions of the current lineup of products.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Breakdaddy wrote:
The color plates are supposed to be a Trollcon exclusive (you guys have bought overflow product from that lineup). There is likely going to be no further color plate editions of the current lineup of products.

Unless someone at TLG headquarters realized that these could make an excellent addition in a new custom or special edition of the books!
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Post by Omote »

Moriarty speaks da troof.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

C&C .....the centerfold edition
*pictures of troll lords in all their glory*
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Post by capitalbill »

PayToFlay wrote:
In case no one responded, I called (and ordered) this morning. There were, to quote: "A few left lying around".

So I'd call quick.

I called this afternoon and put my order in; I was informed that there was "a smattering" of them left.

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Post by Breakdaddy »

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Post by serleran »

Called the Steve and he was gracious enough to allow me to snap a softcover M&T. Woohoo! I thought I had missed out on it.
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Post by MattyHelms »

I noticed today that the softcover M&T has the shark stats and corrects the "advise" typo on the back cover. So if you're into that sort of thing, there it is.

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Post by moriarty777 »

MattyHelms wrote:
I noticed today that the softcover M&T has the shark stats and corrects the "advise" typo on the back cover. So if you're into that sort of thing, there it is.

Yes... I saw that last Friday. Pages 84 and 85 still have the headers of 'Introduction' though.
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Post by jeffb »

Omote wrote:
TLG has said that the color plates will not be in the hardback release. Though I think the layout is going to be the same.

~O

Thanks for the FYI
I finally just gave in and put in a pre-order for the 4th print hardback.
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