Download as Errata?

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jman5000

Download as Errata?

Post by jman5000 »

So, with the newest prints of the core books slowing coming around, I was just wondering, those of us who now have an old copy of the game, will we be offered a download those sections of the rules that have undergone the changes (the new barbarian and Illusionist and poison rules)? or will we have to pay for the new books to "be in sync"?

Cheers,

J.

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Re: Download as Errata?

Post by Treebore »

jman5000 wrote:
So, with the newest prints of the core books slowing coming around, I was just wondering, those of us who now have an old copy of the game, will we be offered a download those sections of the rules that have undergone the changes (the new barbarian and Illusionist and poison rules)? or will we have to pay for the new books to "be in sync"?

Cheers,

J.

Well, considering they never offered "upgraded" PDF's before, I would guess they are not going to start now.
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Post by moriarty777 »

Quite true...

However, in terms of the poison changes from the 2nd print PHB to the 3rd, this document may be of interest:
http://www.arcanacreations.com/Poison.pdf

M
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Post by DangerDwarf »

I'm pretty sure Steve stated on the Podcast at that California con that folks who own the old books wont have to buy the new ones to get the revised info.

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Post by Treebore »

DangerDwarf wrote:
I'm pretty sure Steve stated on the Podcast at that California con that folks who own the old books wont have to buy the new ones to get the revised info.

Yes, but I don't believe that is to be a revised PDF of earlier printings, but a document that just lists/shows the changes.
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Post by serleran »

It may be possible -- I would hope Steve would use this as a tester for some of the things we have discussed before... but, it may work better as a more open access item.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Treebore wrote:
Yes, but I don't believe that is to be a revised PDF of earlier printings, but a document that just lists/shows the changes.

I didn't think that is what Jman was asking. Just if the new info would be available without buying the new print.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

DangerDwarf wrote:
I didn't think that is what Jman was asking. Just if the new info would be available without buying the new print.

Probably 6 months to a year after the print is out, same as the pdf question earlier.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

That sucks. Hard.

jman5000

Post by jman5000 »

[quote="gideon_thorne"][quote="DangerDwarf"]

I didn't think that is what Jman was asking. Just if the new info would be available without buying the new print.[/quote]

Probably 6 months to a year after the print is out, same as the pdf question earlier. [/quote]

If that's true Peter, then consider myself one lost customer forever.

Was going to place an order tonight. not going to, now I'm going to wait to see how the phb changes are going to be handled.

I sure hope you are wrong, as that IMO would be a gross disservice to existing customers.

Cheers,

J.

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Post by DangerDwarf »

jman5000 wrote:
I sure hope you are wrong, as that IMO would be a gross disservice to existing customers.

I lean that way myself.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

jman5000 wrote:
If that's true Peter, then consider myself one lost customer forever.

Was going to place an order tonight. not going to, now I'm going to wait to see how the phb changes are going to be handled.

I sure hope you are wrong, as that IMO would be a gross disservice to existing customers.

Cheers,

J.

Well, the time limit is an outside speculative figure on my part, but its not likely going to be immediate. From what I can tell, the poison rules haven't really changed all that much. Just some text changes here and there.

There have been a few tweaks to existing classes, the Barbarian being the major one. But beyond that, there isn't much an existing customer is going to miss. I expect, once Steve works out a means of hosting such a file where it can be set up with password access, not to mention getting the material organised, then such a thing will be posted.
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jman5000

Post by jman5000 »

Not to disagree, however;

- 1st and 2nd printings don't have poison rules

- barbarian class tweaked

- new spells for illusionist class

all ='s the need to release an "official" errata for prior printings so *everyone* can be on the same page regarding the "official" current content of the phb.

anything less is simply poor customer service for prior (and loyal) customers.

Why must the file be protected - I don't want the entire 4th print of the phb in pdf format, I want those sections that are new, so I can add them to my 1st and 2nd print phb.

Cheers,

J.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

Okay, I live in a cave.

Not meaning any disrespect, jman...

Is this standard practice? I can't recall if WotC released the changed from 3 to 3.5 edition as a document.

I'm trying to think of another company that's done it and I can't think of one off-hand.

Not that there isn't one....like I said I live in a cave.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Its good practice.

Steve stated his intent wasn't to make people with old prints have to buy the new ones to get the new info.

3.5 was a mini edition jump.

Remember, this isn't. It's a new printing, without the intent to make folks who already own a PHB to have to go out and buy a new one.

jman5000

Post by jman5000 »

This is errata, unless its really supposed to be treated as a new edition, and you know how quickly that word gets pounced on around here.

here's my issue I suppose, between the 1st to 3rd prints (except for the poison rules which could be found elsewhere if you paid for the product) really the only changes are errata changes

now, we are having rather substantial changes introduced (no matter how its minimized) by way of a new barbarian, and new illusionist spells. I would like to sit down with players who buy the later print books and be able to *play the same game*. Doesn't seem like this will be possible.

in D&D speak, of course you would not offer for free, to update and upgrade from 1st edition to 2nd (or whatever edition), but if the *Current* edition experienced substantive changes, I *would* expect current customers to be allowed to have this updated content,

Cheers,

J.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Its good practice.

Steve stated his intent wasn't to make people with old prints have to buy the new ones to get the new info.

No, I agree with it, hoss. I hope I didn't sound antagonistic or otherwise against the idea.
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3.5 was a mini edition jump.

Remember, this isn't. It's a new printing, without the intent to make folks who already own a PHB to have to go out and buy a new one.

Well, that's somantics, IMHO. 3 to 3.5 was big enough to warrant the ".5" yes. But if we were putting this new "printing" into that formula, it seems that this would be at least a ".25" jump.
Call it what you will, it's a big enough change to get the attention it's getting. But like I said, I don't think folks should have to buy the new book, either.
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Post by serleran »

There are some reasons to not do it (immediately) and some to -- what matters is whether the Troll decides the former outweighs the latter, and then, why... if it is purely monetary (that is, the books need time to sell to customers or whatever) then it is a business call. If it is something else, then it is something else.

I'd make the new M&T stuff available if I was told I could. But, some of that is art and that requires a whole different kind of permission.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

jman5000 wrote:
This is errata, unless its really supposed to be treated as a new edition, and you know how quickly that word gets pounced on around here.

here's my issue I suppose, between the 1st to 3rd prints (except for the poison rules which could be found elsewhere if you paid for the product) really the only changes are errata changes

now, we are having rather substantial changes introduced (no matter how its minimized) by way of a new barbarian, and new illusionist spells. I would like to sit down with players who buy the later print books and be able to *play the same game*. Doesn't seem like this will be possible.

in D&D speak, of course you would not offer for free, to update and upgrade from 1st edition to 2nd (or whatever edition), but if the *Current* edition experienced substantive changes, I *would* expect current customers to be allowed to have this updated content,

Cheers,

J.

I agree with you hoss. I think we should keep the faith, however.

I think that there is enough changes to warrant a new PHB. I can see how errata should be offered, since this is not a new edition.

I'm glad I'm not in Steve's position. No offense, Steve. If I give away the changes, I'm losing potential sales, but keeping the loyal fans happy. If I don't give it away, I might lose fans, or I might make a few more coins. Those conditions aren't mutually exclusive, though. I'm pretty sure I'd go with the former, but I can see how the choice would be difficult. When it doubt, it would seem wise to keep the fans you got, instead of making a move that could possibly lose some fans in the process.

Some other companies should follow that advice.
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jman5000

Post by jman5000 »

There can be *no* valid, non gouging business reasons to provide a short PDF document that ONLY contains the changes from previous printings (I would say at a maximum, poison rules, the full barbarian write-up, and those new spells for the Illusionist). this is in no way playable, and in no way going to take away sales, but would say "hey customers and fans, we appreciate your past business. I sure hope all these good reviews prompt you to go out and buy a new printing, but until then, here are the changes that we made. enjoy"

boy oh boy.

Cheers,

J.

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Post by DangerDwarf »

jman5000 wrote:
There can be *no* valid, non gouging business reasons to provide a short PDF document that ONLY contains the changes from previous printings (I would say at a maximum, poison rules, the full barbarian write-up, and those new spells for the Illusionist). this is in no way playable, and in no way going to take away sales, but would say "hey customers and fans, we appreciate your past business. I sure hope all these good reviews prompt you to go out and buy a new printing, but until then, here are the changes that we made. enjoy"

boy oh boy.

Cheers,

J.

Agreed completely. The goal of a new "printing" isn't to sell copies to folks who have previous printings. They are re-printed to have a supply on hand for a growing fan base.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

The only problem is, it could potentially take away sales. If Guy X was going to buy the new printing for the changes, but suddenly doesn't have to, because there's an update form, then no purchase has to be made. Honestly, it neither assures a sale nor does it deny a purchase either. It does lend towards the latter, I feel, though.

But of course that begs the question, "why not have the errata out so we don't have to run out and buy a new PHB if we already own one?" Like I said before, this is not an enviable position Steve's in.
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Post by moriarty777 »

jman5000 wrote:
Not to disagree, however;

- 1st and 2nd printings don't have poison rules

Er... what did an Assassin use if not poison? Entries for Poison existed since the 1st printing of the PHB and other guidelines for them since the 1st printing of the M&T.

I won't disagree that there were changes done (from the PHB 2nd printing to 3rd and the M&T 1st printing to 2nd) but neither made the other unplayable. I do agree that this should have been available as some sort of document though. Since none was forthcoming, I did up that little PDF to help bridge the two together.

Reading Crusader 18, it sounds like the biggest new feature for the Barbarian is the ability to cause fear. I don't know what else. On the other hand, 40 new spells or so for the Illusionist is no small thing.

However, I don't mind if there is no 'update' document for and older PHB. On the other hand, not having complimentary access to the new PDF version when you have paid for the older one does bother me a bit.

When TLG finally made the PHB available, it was reflecting the 3rd printing. By that time, I had already bought the M&T in PDF form well over year (if not two). The new printing 'replaced' the 1st printing of the M&T (which is no longer listed). However, I don't have access to the new printing. If I re-download the file, all I get is another copy of the 1st printing. If this was a new edition... I'd understand of course. However the Trolls have been kind to remind us time and time again that there is no new editions... just new printings which may fix errata here and there.

It's certainly something for TLG to think about but suffice to say that I do understand where some of the frustrations are coming from.

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Post by DangerDwarf »

Lord Dynel wrote:
The only problem is, it could potentially take away sales.

But, printings aren't supposed to be about repeat sales. They are for continued inventory.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Agreed completely. The goal of a new "printing" isn't to sell copies to folks who have previous printings. They are re-printed to have a supply on hand for a growing fan base.

I agree, 100%.

I think some of the sales TLG is hoping for from the PHB comes from long time fans and players, too, though.
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Post by DangerDwarf »

Yeah, but us fan boys will get them regardless. Heck, I already pre-ordered mine so lack of a file wont effect me at all. I just think it a bad practice.

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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
But, printings aren't supposed to be about repeat sales. They are for continued inventory.

True. I do agree. But the term "printing" is objectionable in this case, I fear...only when it comes to whether or not there will be an update document on it or not.

But I do agree.
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Post by Lord Dynel »

DangerDwarf wrote:
Yeah, but us fan boys will get them regardless. Heck, I already pre-ordered mine so lack of a file wont effect me at all. I just think it a bad practice.
That's the point I'm getting at. I honestly think, and I could be miles off, that the Trolls relied on this when deciding to do this new print. Sure, they want to expand their customer base. Who doesn't? But I'm sure they planned on some percentage of repeat sales.

This is why I'm sure glad I'm not the decision maker in this process.
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Post by moriarty777 »

jman5000 wrote:
There can be *no* valid, non gouging business reasons to provide a short PDF document that ONLY contains the changes from previous printings (I would say at a maximum, poison rules, the full barbarian write-up, and those new spells for the Illusionist). this is in no way playable, and in no way going to take away sales, but would say "hey customers and fans, we appreciate your past business. I sure hope all these good reviews prompt you to go out and buy a new printing, but until then, here are the changes that we made. enjoy"

boy oh boy.

Cheers,

J.

On reflection (since this thread is definitely striking a cord here amongst many), a stripped down / bare bones 'errata-like' approach to a document like this would be really cool. Something to give my players who have older copies of the PHB (I'm set to buy the new one).

A guideline for the new Poison giving basic changes (like types and costs)... New Barbarian ability in brief description giving basic crunch and corrections to existing ones... New spells having a one-liner description like as opposed to full text. Basically just enough for reference.

That would make me happy.

Of course people who bought the 3rd print PDF don't have to spend a dime to re-download the new printing to replace the old one.

M
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Post by Treebore »

The only "bad position" Steve is in is having to make up a document for us to DL with all the new Illusionist spells (40? 50?) and to show the full current versions of the poison rules, barbarian class, Monk class, and if they changed any class features of the Illusionist, which I don't remember being done.

Steve could also make this a article in Crusader, maybe formatted to allow for them to be cut out and taped inside of our copies. Of which I would have to make many copies, since I have at least 10 PH's myself, plus I will be buying at least one new one at Troll Con. Along with the third printing of the M&T. Then I will be buying the CKG and Of Gods and Monsters at GenCon.

I am sure Steve understands our desire to have these updates available, for free, ASAP. He was a customer/fan, just like us, for decades before starting TLG. So I am sure he will get it up as soon as he remembers to make it a priority to get done.
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