C&C on Harn (moved)

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Thoom
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C&C on Harn (moved)

Post by Thoom »

moved since it seems only moderators could reply in the Keepers' advice

I'm planning to start a campaign on the World of Harn (HarnWorld) and I'm looking for advice on Castle Keepers that have experience on this. So please share!

Lord Dynel
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Well, I can't say I've CK'd a campaign, but I did DM a 2e game on Harn that ran about 9-10 sessions back in the early 90s - I remember it was not long after the HarnWorld 2nd edition folder came out. Anyway, I had the characters starting in Kaldor. I loved the setting, and still do, but my players sadly found it a little boring. I played Harn very low fantasy, which the players hadn't too much of a problem with. They're main problem was with the encounters. They were a bloodthirsty lot, god bless them, and there wasn't much in the way of fantastic encounters. I tried to explain to them that there were beasts out there, but they were in a rather civilized part of the world. The game kind of fizzled before they got interested. The party had been hired to escort a dwarven dignitary from Kaldor to Azadmere but they never made it to the dwarven lands.

So, I apologize that I can't give you too much advice on Harn. I'm sure someone can, though. I know I like the world a lot - it's realism and "gritty" feel is second to none. Hopefully, you have a group of players that can stay interested in the setting longer than mine did. And I'm of the opinion that if 2e D&D can be used for Harn, C&C will have no problem whatsoever.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Thoom
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Post by Thoom »

Thanks Lord Dynel. I understand your group's reaction (the low fantasy) as it's always been my main concern for running other systems on Harn and it was actually one of the thing I wanted feedback on.

I think I can tune-up the fantasy level on Harn outside the towns (there are many wilderness areas). Also my group likes "town adventures" so there is a lot of potential there.

I can't seem to find the d20 conversion pdf for Harn though, anyone can point me in the right direction?

serleran
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Post by serleran »

Do you mean HarnWorld or the system? The world is pretty much usable with any game... the system, on the other hand, is a bit micro-management, which is great if that's what you're after but also at the extreme opposite spectrum of C&C -- it is a better fir for Chivalry and Sorcery or GURPS which are both more "realistic."

You should have little problem using the "less-crunch" aspects of Harn.

Thoom
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Post by Thoom »

I meant HarnWorld. What concerns me is the low-fantasy aspect of it. Also there are no gnomes or halflings on Harn. And orcs, or garguns, are quite a different breed which make half-orcs impossible.

All these things can be changed of course, and it's why I'm looking for info on how people managed.

Lord Dynel
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Thoom wrote:
I meant HarnWorld. What concerns me is the low-fantasy aspect of it. Also there are no gnomes or halflings on Harn. And orcs, or garguns, are quite a different breed which make half-orcs impossible.

All these things can be changed of course, and it's why I'm looking for info on how people managed.

But I have to ask - without trying to sound snarky - why change it? I think it's stuff like that that makes the world unique. Changing those things would take Harn one step towards being just like all the other fantasy worlds. I'd say to my players, "Look fellas, there are no halflings and gnomes. Most humanoid races don't exist. The ones that do are really different. Undead are different. Magic is more rare. Most of your enemies will be of the human variety." I think that they may be skeptical at first, but if they like more of the town adventures, political intrigue, "whodunnit" type adventures, then Harn will work pretty good, I think.

I'd keep magic sparse. I'd be sure to mix in what monsters you can. Keep them in a small town, isolated town to start mightt be a good idea. Compensate the fantastic with a good bit of action. I think you'll be alright.

After all this talk of Harn (on this thread and on another thread on another board) I (very) recently "re-bought" the HarnWorld 2nd Ed. box set. Might try to give it another shot (with some more open players than I did 16 years ago )
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Thoom
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Post by Thoom »

Lord Dynel wrote:
But I have to ask - without trying to sound snarky - why change it? I think it's stuff like that that makes the world unique. Changing those things would take Harn one step towards being just like all the other fantasy worlds. I'd say to my players, "Look fellas, there are no halflings and gnomes. Most humanoid races don't exist. The ones that do are really different. Undead are different. Magic is more rare. Most of your enemies will be of the human variety." I think that they may be skeptical at first, but if they like more of the town adventures, political intrigue, "whodunnit" type adventures, then Harn will work pretty good, I think.

I'd keep magic sparse. I'd be sure to mix in what monsters you can. Keep them in a small town, isolated town to start mightt be a good idea. Compensate the fantastic with a good bit of action. I think you'll be alright.

After all this talk of Harn (on this thread and on another thread on another board) I (very) recently "re-bought" the HarnWorld 2nd Ed. box set. Might try to give it another shot (with some more open players than I did 16 years ago )

All valid points and I don't find it 'snarky' at all
The thing is that I've had HarnWorld for a very long time (since it was first published actually, and I own every Harn product made by ColumbiaGames, and many of their wargames also) and played Harnmaster among other systems on it. My players have already done the low-fantasy-gargun-aren't-orcs-there-are-no-gnomes-etc. routine. And one of the reasons I'm looking forward to a C&C campaign (read: very excited) is that it brings back the feeling I had 25 years ago when I first discovered AD&D. I don't want to restrict my players in their choices of characters.

I was actually tempted to get another world and actually bought Yggsburgh, but I know Harn so well that it's much easier for me to use it (and I have less time than I used to prepare games).

In some cases in the past (using AD&D on Harn) I've used the explanation that halflings and gnomes came from the rest of Kethira (which explained monks also). This time around I'm leaning towards placing Gnomes in Equeth and Halflings in Peran.

Lord Dynel
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Very impressive collection of Harn stuff...if you ever decide to get rid of that collection, drop me a line!
I'm understanding you a bit better, now. I think that if you want to go back in time to your early days of AD&D then I'm thinking that Harn may not be the best answer for you, mainly for what you said - it is a little too restrictive. If you don't want he headache of placing races and classes in certain parts of the world or (less desirably) removing certain aspects of the game, then you may want to try something else. I like Harn, but I don't know if it would be worth it, in your case. Trying to "capture the magic," if you will, will prove difficult if you're too busy worrying about the setting.

Ultimately, it all comes down to the players. If your players have played in Harn and want to stay there, then I'd say go for it. Sure you have to work with the setting to get C&C to fit, but no more than you have had to do for AD&D. If you want to try something new, I'd suggest getting the East Mark Gazetteer and the Yggsburgh hardback. Plenty of dungeon crawls and in-town adventures to keep your group busy for a while.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Thoom
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Post by Thoom »

Well I have a couple duplicates on the Harn stuff, if you're interested I can check
I'm really thorn between using HarnWorld and another setting. As I said I bought Yggsburgh (partly because it reminded me of Greyhawk, again a feeling of the early days), but there is so much to absorb and I have so little time these days (what with the kids, work, the house, ...). It seems to me that modifying HarnWorld is easier than learning a new setting.

Of course it all depends on how much you 'use' the world setting, but my campaigns are always very 'involved' in the politics of the world.

The good thing about HarnWorld, besides its level of details and the fact that I know it well, is that it's easier (I think) to crank up the fantasy level than it is to tone it down. This apothicary is in fact a ceric of the healing god, this hermit is a druid, that sage is a wizard, etc.

YMMV

Lord Dynel
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Post by Lord Dynel »

Thoom wrote:
The good thing about HarnWorld, besides its level of details and the fact that I know it well, is that it's easier (I think) to crank up the fantasy level than it is to tone it down. This apothicary is in fact a ceric of the healing god, this hermit is a druid, that sage is a wizard, etc.

YMMV

No, no...you've got it right. It seems to me that you're answering your own question. If I were you I would press on with Harn. By reading your posts I can see a lot more pros for staying with Harn (you know Harn really well, you have all the material, you're players seem to like playing in Harn and both you and they are comfortable, Harn is easy for your level of fantasy/campaign you want to run) than cons (you want a feeling of some classic fantasy, perhaps a feeling of nostalgia that you're not vibing with Harn).

I might be way off base...who knows. In my humble opinion, I'd say stick with Harn. It seems easier all the way around. Harn, in my brief time with it, gave me a feeling I wasnt able to replicate with any other campaign in any other genre. f you have that feeling, I'd say stick with it until your players revolt.

Oh, and if you have any Harn table scraps you're be willing to throw my way (sell) just let me know!
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

Thoom
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Joined: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:00 am

Post by Thoom »

Lord Dynel wrote:
No, no...you've got it right. It seems to me that you're answering your own question.

Well I *do* have a plan!
Seriously, my original question wasn't if I should use HarnWorld or not. What I was looking for mainly was feedback on how it went for CKs who already used C&C on HarnWorld. Perhaps there are a few things that I should watch out for that someone else might warn me of.

But it seems that nobody uses C&C on HarnWorld and that I'll be the first!
I'll tell you how it goes Lord Dynel!

serleran
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Post by serleran »

I don't use the setting -- I use elements of it, though. Mostly locations and maps. I really like the book Castles of Harn.

Lord Dynel
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Post by Lord Dynel »

I did get that you were asking about using Harn with C&C specifically. My apologies for straying a bit from the topic. I think that if AD&D can be used with it, that C&C should be no problem. Sorry I can't be of any more help than that...looks like you're going to be trailblazing some new territory!
And, yeah, I'd be interested in hearing how your campaign is doing. Maybe you can post the sessions in "The Crusades" forum. If that's not your cup of tea, then I would at least like to hear about the mechanical side of the game - adapting C&C to Harn (or vice-versa). That might come in handy for others who are ambitious!

By the way, my HarnWorld 2nd Edition box set came in today. Man, it's just as awesome as I remember it. Look like I got some heavy reading in front of me!
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

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