Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL

joela · Post by **joela** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:37 pm

Per Chris Pramas, President of Green Ronin:
We do not, however, feel that this license treats third party publishers as valued partners. Under its terms WotC could frivolously sue a signatory for supposed violations of the GSL, lose the actual court case, and still ruin the winning company because the license specifies that the signatory has to pay WotC's legal fees. Also, the GSL can be changed at any time and WotC is not legally required to so much as inform its licensees.

PR can be found here.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:41 pm

I didn't think they would be stupid.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Go0gleplex · Post by **Go0gleplex** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:18 pm

WotC obviously thinks more of their game than the gaming community old timers do.

Seems like it's their way of trying to copyright Tolkien so to speak.
_________________
The obvious will always trip you up FAR more than the obscure.

Baron Grignak Hammerhand of the Pacifica Provinces-

High Warden of the Castles & Crusades Society

froglegg · Post by **froglegg** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:20 pm

joela wrote:
Per Chris Pramas, President of Green Ronin:
We do not, however, feel that this license treats third party publishers as valued partners. Under its terms WotC could frivolously sue a signatory for supposed violations of the GSL, lose the actual court case, and still ruin the winning company because the license specifies that the signatory has to pay WotC's legal fees. Also, the GSL can be changed at any time and WotC is not legally required to so much as inform its licensees.

PR can be found here.

Wotc has truly lost their mind

serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:28 pm

I have not read the GSL (has no interest to me at this point), but it is interesting that few of the "major players" of the d20 sphere are going with it...

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:30 pm

froglegg wrote:
Wotc has truly lost their mind

I would argue more towards anyone who signs that GSL has. Even though Goodman may be doing it pretty smart. I have to understand how his going GSL effects his control/ownership of the old 3E DCC's if he never publishes them under the 4E system.

IF taking the "DCC Line" GSL gave WOTC control of all of those modules without actually reusing them in 4E, then I think he has opened himself to serious regret. If he actually has to reprint them in the 4E world to lose control of the material, then he is going forward as smartly as possible.

Going GSL with totally new material is OK, if you want to count on WOTC allowing you to go 5E with the material, and are OK with never being able to use the OGL to publish it.

Otherwise signing the GSL would be arguable "crazy".

For someone like GR, they can go GSL with a totally new line, if they ever want to. I would guess they are more than busy enough with True 20 and Mutants and Masterminds, and are hopeful about their future success with the George RR Martin RPG. SO they can definitely "Wait and see" about going 4E.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:31 pm

The GSL is rough, there is no doubt about it. However, the few players who are going to go 4E will be making some cash. Just look how few publishers are going for 4E at this point? I think the first few non WOTC products for 4E are going to kill from this fact alone.

-O
_________________
> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <
Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society

froglegg · Post by **froglegg** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:35 pm

Treebore wrote:
I would argue more towards anyone who signs that GSL has. Even though Goodman may be doing it pretty smart. I have to understand how his going GSL effects his control/ownership of the old 3E DCC's if he never publishes them under the 4E system.

IF taking the "DCC Line" GSL gave WOTC control of all of those modules without actually reusing them in 4E, then I think he has opened himself to serious regret. If he actually has to reprint them in the 4E world to lose control of the material, then he is going forward as smartly as possible.

Going GSL with totally new material is OK, if you want to count on WOTC allowing you to go 5E with the material, and are OK with never being able to use the OGL to publish it.

Otherwise signing the GSL would be arguable "crazy".

For someone like GR, they can go GSL with a totally new line, if they ever want to. I would guess they are more than busy enough with True 20 and Mutants and Masterminds, and are hopeful about their future success with the George RR Martin RPG. SO they can definitely "Wait and see" about going 4E.

Thats why I am a lowly goblin.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:42 pm

Personally, I much like how they did the GSL. I mean, one publisher for 4e (WotC) is already way too much for my taste. So it's a good thing if the GSL somewhat limits the invasion...
_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:14 pm

Turanil wrote:
Personally, I much like how they did the GSL. I mean, one publisher for 4e (WotC) is already way too much for my taste. So it's a good thing if the GSL somewhat limits the invasion...

A very, very good point.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:31 pm

Remember that Green Ronin has a lot invested in T20. It would be like TLG signing and loosing C&C due to a snafu or prod from WOTC. Thus 4e has done something I feel was needed. Returned the House System to companies and diversified the market.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

tylermo · Post by **tylermo** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:43 pm

Admittedly, you don't want a glut of 4E products, but parts of the gsl seem brutal. Good for Green Ronin. I only played one True 20 adventure, and my friend was still struggling with the rules at the time. So, I can't speak for it too much. I know it has a good following. But, hopefully that following is big enough to survive 4E. Mutants and Masterminds should still do well enough. Still hoping Goodman is doing the right thing. The possibility of future C&C mods would make me feel better.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:45 pm

Julian Grimm wrote:
Remember that Green Ronin has a lot invested in T20. It would be like TLG signing and loosing C&C due to a snafu or prod from WOTC. Thus 4e has done something I feel was needed. Returned the House System to companies and diversified the market.

I think, judging from what they say, that all that is stopping Green Ronin signing the GSL are the terms that define their potential legal relationship to Wizards of the Coast; even if they didn't have True20 or Mutants & Masterminds they would not be signing the GSL. That said, no doubt their established products underline the risk of signing on; a fresh company with nothing to lose might have a very different perspective.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Lord Dynel · Post by **Lord Dynel** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:43 pm

Regardless of why (IMHO), I'm glad they didn't do it. To me it's just one more showing that the coporate steamroller to the rpg industry that WotC isn't scaring everyone.

Thegreenman · Post by **Thegreenman** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:57 pm

On the GSL topic, is White Wolf going to do a GSL line like Sword & Sorcery?

IIRC they were one of the first out the gate with d20 stuff.

What about Paizo?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:00 am

Thegreenman wrote:
On the GSL topic, is White Wolf going to do a GSL line like Sword & Sorcery?

What about Paizo?

IIRC they were one of the first out the gate with d20 stuff.

To the best of my knowledge?

White Wolf, nope.

Paizo, absolutely not.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:18 am

tylermo wrote:
Admittedly, you don't want a glut of 4E products, but parts of the gsl seem brutal. Good for Green Ronin. I only played one True 20 adventure, and my friend was still struggling with the rules at the time. So, I can't speak for it too much. I know it has a good following. But, hopefully that following is big enough to survive 4E. Mutants and Masterminds should still do well enough. Still hoping Goodman is doing the right thing. The possibility of future C&C mods would make me feel better.

In the beginning I was worried about the future of Goodman C&C mods. And they are/were a nice addition to the C&C line up. However, I think that the possible loss of the Goodman mods would be more of a bump in the road and while missed wouldn't detract from the C&C experience as it is.
_________________
The Lord of Ravens
My blog

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:24 am

Treebore wrote:
To the best of my knowledge?

White Wolf, nope.

Paizo, absolutely not.

Yeah, Paizo's doing the "3.75" thing right? They're basically sticking with 3.5 yet modifying slightly. As for White Wolf, ever since they merged with that online gaming company I don't think that they've been too keen on ventures like the GSL.

Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:59 am

froglegg wrote:
Wotc has truly lost their mind

From everything I've ready about the GSL I don't think WotC wants anyone to actually sign the thing. It seems more likely that they are trying to fracture the market hoping most (if not all) the gaming dollars will come to them and the d20/old school/etc market will just start to vanish.

According to my local game-shop owner the pen and paper rpg industry only did 15 million last year (as apposed to 35 million the year 3e came about) and my thought is WotC would like to actively widen the gap between new and old.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:25 am

Jackal wrote:
According to my local game-shop owner the pen and paper rpg industry only did 15 million last year (as apposed to 35 million the year 3e came about) and my thought is WotC would like to actively widen the gap between new and old.

Can a new game, just because it's new and different, get things back at 35 millions a year?

At least, what I perceive of 4e, is clearly WotC is trying to milk the customers every way it can think of. However, it seems to me it's like for fishes in the sea: once you've fished them all, no new boat will let you fish more. WotC and 3PP have flooded the market with products. I have more than 100 rulebooks (mostly D&D stuff from 1e to 3.5), with great looking games I never got the opportunity to use. There are many more great games out there, that I am certain, would be cool to try. Fact is, I simply don't have the time for them. As such, why buy more books? And I have only 100 of them of different games and editions. Think about all those guys who tell on forums that they spent hundreds, if not thousands of dollars on 3.5 material only, and say they will probably never get the time to use all of it. In such a case why buy more books? Besides, it's not as if they were a great reading in themselves, 4e being seemingly worse than 3.5 in this regard. I don't think that 4e will do anything against that, except if they reach the younger teenage customer base as it seems they try to (in many aspects 4e appears childish to me; even if RPGs in general aren't very adult oriented... ).
_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

Jackal · Post by **Jackal** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:37 am

I don't think 4e is attempting to get the gaming industry back to where it was. This time around I think WotC just wants to get as many fish in the sea to follow them, leaving all the other fishermen with little or nothing to catch.

So while 4e is certainly trying to generate new customers by grabbing the pc gamer, no, I don't believe they are trying to recreate the 35 million era. They're just trying to make sure that as many of those 15 million dollars hits their pockets alone.

As for the thousands of books out there, that's true. But you're forgetting the tendency of many people to go for "newest and shiniest". I think that's what WotC is banking on as they try to create "one game to rule them all." I'm not saying it will work, just that it seems to be the plan.

Turanil · Post by **Turanil** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:00 pm

Jackal wrote:
I'm not saying it will work, just that it seems to be the plan.

Regarding 4e, I believe WotC plan was not "lets create the best D&D game we can think of"

_________________
Homebrews Wiki a list of campaign settings on the web.

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:12 pm

I remember there was plenty of speculation years ago about what would happen with the Open Gaming License / Third Party Companies when a new edition came out. It looks like the people that predicted that a lot of third party groups would stick with 3e were right...

Now, it would be awesome to see Green Ronin do a C&C module - or is that already on the slate along with C&C Freeport?

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:21 pm

Mongoose is doing a GSL product line. Starting with a pretty cool sounding setting. Very high fantasy/high powered. Definitely not for the "low magic" crowd. The theme could definitely be used for low magic, but the setting seems to assume there are archmages about, and actually doing things.
_________________
The Ruby Lord, Earl of the Society

Next Con I am attending: http://www.neoncon.com/

My House Rules: http://www.freeyabb.com/phpbb/viewtopic ... llordgames

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:29 pm

If Mongoose does that, I wonder what will happen to their d20 Conan line? It is one of the few d20 games I still play.
_________________
Lord Aladar

Warden of the Welk Wood

Baron of the Castles & Crusades Society

The Poster formerly known as Alwyn

Senior Gamer - Member of the Senior RPG Tour

"NEMO ME IMPUNE LACESSIT - At least not in Yu Gi Oh"
http://www.cncsociety.org/

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:40 pm

Nothing will happen to any of their D20 lines. The GSL does not prohibit use of the OGL for separate lines, that rumour turned out to be unfounded.

As I understand it, Troll Lord Games could publish Castle Zagyg for Castles & Crusades and any other system they liked, but if they published it under the GSL they would no longer be able to publish it using any other rule system. They would still be able to publish their none Castle Zagyg related products as normal, however.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

shadoes · Post by **shadoes** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:44 pm

So basically the GSL says that if you publish a product for 4E then it can NEVER be published for another system?

Why didn't WoTC just say no more and take it all back in house? would have been a simpler way to go about this as that seems to be what they really want to do.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:55 pm

shadoes wrote:
So basically the GSL says that if you publish a product for 4E then it can NEVER be published for another system?

There is a bit of gray as to that (i.e. I am not clear on the facts). Presumably, you could withdraw from the GSL and publish the product line under another license (say, 5e D&D), you just couldn't publish it as D&D 4e and something else simultanously.

shadoes wrote:
Why didn't WoTC just say no more and take it all back in house? would have been a simpler way to go about this as that seems to be what they really want to do.

Well, by all accounts, that is originally what they were going to do; this way they partially fracture the D20 market without giving up much of anything.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

concobar · Post by **concobar** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:41 pm

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.ph ... 210&page=2

discussion going on over at wotc about the GSL and some of the 3pp response as well as some novice trademark/IP copyright talk.

from the thread
Otherwise known as 3rd party publishers telling WoTC exactly where they can shove their GSL.

Kenzer is coming out with a 4th Ed KoK campaign setting.

Adamant Entertainment is coming out with their Venture 4th series.

Goodman games apparently has something in the works.

Plus at least a few others who are releasing 4th ed stuff without the GSL.

It's an interesting development, that's for sure. Of the lot of them Kenzer seems to be in the best position. Dave Kenzer is a lawyer specializing in IP so I doubt he bills himself much. He's also taken on Wizards before (regarding the Dragon CD) and won. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

Quote:

From Dave Kenzer

that is not copyright infringement.

copyright infringement is basing your work on someone elses creative expression. Rules are not creative expression. Also, it is not based on their rules. It happens to work with their rules.

SHould every programmer that writes a program that works with a computer have to pay the owner of the OS it runs on? I think not. I could be wrong, but fortunately, the US and International copyright laws agree with me.

A world where one could not reference others materials in their product would be a dark and sad place.

Matthew · Post by **Matthew** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:54 pm

Classic stuff. I am familiar with that Titanium Dragon guy over on GitP, and am not surprised at his stance.
_________________
It is a joyful thing indeed to hold intimate converse with a man after ones own heart, chatting without reserve about things of interest or the fleeting topics of the world; but such, alas, are few and far between.

Yoshida Kenko (1283-1350)

Troll Lord Games

Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL

Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL

Re: Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL

Re: Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL

Re: Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL

Re: Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL

Re: Green Ronin will not be signing the GSL