What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

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K2h2m3
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Post by K2h2m3 »

Really? Who's the art and layout guy? Sounds like he really gets into his work.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

K2h2m3 wrote:
Really? Who's the art and layout guy? Sounds like he really gets into his work.

Me. ^_~`

And yes, my 'work' is pretty much the most important thing in my life.
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Post by K2h2m3 »

Somehow I just knew that would get you to respond.

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Post by slimykuotoan »

I wonder if someone could organize a 'C&C day' in which AD&D gamers are invited to online or in person games.

A meeting of two royal houses if you will.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

slimykuotoan wrote:
I wonder if someone could organize a 'C&C day' in which AD&D gamers are invited to online or in person games.

A meeting of two royal houses if you will.

And perhaps, like in the House of Parliament, the tables would have to be two and a half sword lengths in width.
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Post by Kersus »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Well. I do get it. I read Gary's comments as well as anyone else when he said 'classless game'. An order may fulfill a defining role, but its not a class or level based. Which is what I was describing when I said archetype. Something long associated with a class and level based system. Otherwise I suspect Gary wouldn't have conceived of the Lejendary Levels idea.

You don't get it, but you may think that if it helps
Nothing about saying archetypes springs to level based. No LA is not level based without the optional Lejendary Levels, but certainly making an absolutely flippant statement like yours was off base in it's mentions of LA as a non-archetype system. Can it be used non-archetype. Yes. Does it lack archetypes? No. Love it, hate it, be somewhere in between, but at least know what you're speaking of.

I will note for the future that when you say archetype, you truly mean archetypes with level based play.
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When I am making an accurate technical statement describing one

We'll stop that quote right there. You meant innacrurate... Okay, we're good.
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not being flippant. It would be nice if people would stop assuming negativity on my part when I'm just describing a fact. ^_~`

Hmmmm.... You do seem to feel negative vibes. No matter. It's the lack of fact I was noting that may also have included a nagging suspicion that really wasn't related that may have purported such, or maybe something else not noteworthy here.
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Certainly, 'feel' is something nebulous and subjective and entirely a matter of perspective. ^_^

No kidding.

K
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Post by Kersus »

cuchulainkevin wrote:
I think it's safe to say that they thought enough of it to publish the Essentials boxed set and a bunch of supplements. I have sitting right next to me here
From what I understand a revised ruleset is in the offering. Plus support in Crusader.

My guess is (no proof, mind you) that the Trolls like LA just fine.

Here's hoping
I have no idea the exact or even vague agreement that brought LA and Gary to TLG or what possible previous friendships were involved. So without those things I can not be sure of anything to do with the like.

I do hope that TLG goes all out for the revised editions of Gary's game. They have the chance to make it or break it. Regardless of how you feel about C&C, LA, or other games, it was apparent that LA was a great labour of love for Gary that he had had high hopes for.

I hope for the best.

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Post by Rhuvein »

Kersus wrote:
I have no idea the exact or even vague agreement that brought LA and Gary to TLG or what possible previous friendships were involved. So without those things I can not be sure of anything to do with the like.

I do hope that TLG goes all out for the revised editions of Gary's game. They have the chance to make it or break it. Regardless of how you feel about C&C, LA, or other games, it was apparent that LA was a great labour of love for Gary that he had had high hopes for.

Kersus, I'm a bit surprised and somewhat confused by your post.

I guess you're not aware that the Trolls have been working with Gary for 7 or 8 years now, publishing his material for GFWs and CZ and of course the LA Essentials.

Steve and Davis have been very close friends with Gary as well as being his publisher. So I'd say there isn't anything vague about what TLG is doing with Gary's material. It's my opinion that Gary had tremendous faith and satisfaction on what the Trolls have done and what they were currently working on.

Steve spoke at Gary's funeral by the way, if you didn't know it.

The Trolls brought and will continue to bring Gary's work to us. The Trolls brought Gary to us.

Because of the Trolls, I've been introduced to LA and love the game and have purchased the Essentials box and all the other modulest!!!

Because of the Trolls, I've played LA with Chris Clark, Greg Ellis and GARY GYGAX!!

Anyway, TLG is totally committed to doing the best they can for any of Gary's material. There should be NO DOUBT about that from anyone.

Seriously, read Steve's blog or the Gary Gygax passing thread, if you have any further question about whether the Trolls will do justice to any of Gary's material to be released.

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Post by seskis281 »

I was getting set to post, but what Rhu said.

I too met these people, and played LA with Chris this past Janurary. I think it's safe to say that Gary and the Trolls were very close and had mutual respect. Gary chose TLG in his later years to represent his works. He didn't have to.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Kersus wrote:
You don't get it, but you may think that if it helps

I do get it. I understand the game intimately having been spending quite a bit of time becoming familiar with the system in order to present the material properly.. I just don't suffer from some woolly headed idealism about it either.
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Nothing about saying archetypes springs to level based.

Considering the first game to bring archetypes to the table was level based, Id say this is inaccurate.
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No LA is not level based without the optional Lejendary Levels, but certainly making an absolutely flippant statement like yours was off base in it's mentions of LA as a non-archetype system. Can it be used non-archetype. Yes. Does it lack archetypes? No. Love it, hate it, be somewhere in between, but at least know what you're speaking of.

Champions and Fantasy Hero can simulate archetypes. But that doesn't mean they are archetype games with class levels. Same thing with LA.

Might not want to presume to be the god of all knowledgefullness about the game yourself. Not to mention TLG's motives.
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I will note for the future that when you say archetype, you truly mean archetypes with level based play.

Might want to note for the future your completely wrong supposition about me being flippant as well.
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We'll stop that quote right there. You meant innacrurate... Okay, we're good.

No we're not. Please stop quoting inaccuracies.
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not being flippant. It would be nice if people would stop assuming negativity on my part when I'm just describing a fact. ^_~`
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Hmmmm.... You do seem to feel negative vibes.

I do when people are ascribing motives to me and TLG that don't exist.
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No matter. It's the lack of fact I was noting that may also have included a nagging suspicion that really wasn't related that may have purported such, or maybe something else not noteworthy here.

Its not a lack of fact. LA doesn't have class and levels. This is a fact.

I could compile a collection of bundled related abilities with limits, advantages and disadvantages in Champions and a few other games too. It doesn't make the game archetype based.
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Post by anonymous »

Well I am not a happy camper right now ......The store I like to get my gaming goody's at will not carry C&C. I was told that they will not have the space for it because of 4th edition coming out. They did say that they could place a special order for me I could not help but get the feeling that they didn't want C&C around and I do not understand why. Could it be that they see this as a threat to all of the 4th edition stuff they have pre-ordered?........... But I did get a copy of GreyHawk Adventures and the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and I passed on the Monster Manual I and Monster Manual II they had. I have 3 each of them already but now that I am back home I wish I had gotten them anyway. They were 1st edition after all. Good gaming to all from S.C.

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Post by froglegg »

LOL my post went in as a guest........Boy do I feel sheepish!

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Post by froglegg »

Anonymous wrote:
Well I am not a happy camper right now ......The store I like to get my gaming goody's at will not carry C&C. I was told that they will not have the space for it because of 4th edition coming out. They did say that they could place a special order for me I could not help but get the feeling that they didn't want C&C around and I do not understand why. Could it be that they see this as a threat to all of the 4th edition stuff they have pre-ordered?........... But I did get a copy of GreyHawk Adventures and the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide and I passed on the Monster Manual I and Monster Manual II they had. I have 3 each of them already but now that I am back home I wish I had gotten them anyway. They were 1st edition after all. Good gaming to all from S.C.
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Post by Treebore »

Hi froglegg, I lived in Charleston until a couple of years ago.
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Re: What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

Post by Jonathan of White Haven »

gideon_thorne wrote:
I suppose I could go into a very long exposition and rant as to why, citing numerous posts, forums and links. But instead of that, I can sum it up with one thing.

"Some people are very frightened of change" James T Kirk.

I can easily agree with the above quotation. One of the people in my gaming circle is a dyed-in-the-wool 1E player, and every damned time our group gets together to play our now-C&C modified campaign (mostly C&C, with some reversions to 1E AD&D), he will, at some time during the session, begin to whine that he's just not sure he likes how the game mechanics are going. At least once.

And he has steadfastly refused to transfer his characters' information from the semi-cardstock "official AD&D" character sheets to C&C-styled sheets. Instead, he's added the necessary stuff (BtH, saves, and whatnot) to his existing 1E sheets. I think he hopes in his heart of hearts that we give up on this "new-fangled" stuff and go back to doing things the way that God and EGG intended.

Not that it's going to happen...
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I will give you this advice. Unless your wearing asbestos underwear, I highly recommend NOT going to any dedicated 1E sites and trying to promote the game. This advice comes from 5 years of experience dealing with some of the most absurd and illogical rantings about 'old school purity' and whatnot I've ever seen.

Ah, this is tantamount to professing a liking for Windows Vista in certain computer-related venues. If you don't do it carefully (pick the right venues), you're likely to get your head handed to you.

BTW, I like Windows Vista.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

S'funny. I see C&C as an extension of the 1e rules. They are very compatable and there was at least once that EGG said that those playing 1e should move to C&C. Though he was riled up at the time.

I see the two systems as going hand in hand.
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Post by Kersus »

Rhuvein wrote:
Kersus, I'm a bit surprised and somewhat confused by your post.

I guess you're not aware that the Trolls have been working with Gary for 7 or 8 years now, publishing his material for GFWs and CZ and of course the LA Essentials.

Not sure why you're surprised. I know well the publishing history part between the two and the length of time - just not the extent of the circumstances that brought them together. I've even brought similar things up to Gary before but he was elusive when it came to TLG and LA. TLGs responses also gave me some implication that LA was sort of the tagalong, but that they intended to move forward with it. Don't take this as a malicious attack. TLG seem like decent people (but they really need to stop packing their shippings with private letters they forgot to shred) and I assumed there had to be some underlying friendship although I don't know it's extent. C&C is the flagship, and it's appeared although possibly incorrectly that while they put out LA material, it was a little grudgingly. Especially when it seemed that even Gary had trouble getting them to do some things. Then again, if the friendship was very strong - that's the sort of banter friends have and can be easily missinterpreted.
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Steve and Davis have been very close friends with Gary as well as being his publisher. So I'd say there isn't anything vague about what TLG is doing with Gary's material. It's my opinion that Gary had tremendous faith and satisfaction on what the Trolls have done and what they were currently working on.

No question there. Gary threw much of his lot in to help out TLG and how LA fit in, I don't know. Did they beg for it, or did he ask them as a favour to do it? No idea.
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The Trolls brought and will continue to bring Gary's work to us. The Trolls brought Gary to us.

That's a surprising statement to me, although I guess I can see that some may feel that way. Gary has been with us for many years and has had a large input in the gaming circles besides TLG. I was lucky to start chatting with him via email a looong time ago and he was of the best sort to communicate with.
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Because of the Trolls, I've been introduced to LA and love the game and have purchased the Essentials box and all the other modulest!!!

Very nice! I've always agreed with Gary in the concept of a basic set to go with the full rules - and it's nice to see it brought people to LA. It of course existed long before any finacial relationship with TLG.... Or possibly even TLG and many of us were introduced to it in Alpha through other sources - maybe even the long gone gygax.com.
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Because of the Trolls, I've played LA with Chris Clark, Greg Ellis and GARY GYGAX!!

All three fantastic individuals and you are very lucky. I've rarely seen someone go to such lengths to make things right as Chris Clark, and Greg is a very enjoyable guy to chat with about has a great mind for writing adventures. I could not say enough good about Gary in this post.
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Anyway, TLG is totally committed to doing the best they can for any of Gary's material. There should be NO DOUBT about that from anyone.

Hope so. I have high hopes.

K
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Post by Kersus »

gideon_thorne wrote:
I just don't suffer from some woolly headed idealism about it either.

Nice.
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Considering the first game to bring archetypes to the table was level based, Id say this is inaccurate.

The first RPG used archetypes and level based play - correct. I'm not so sure on the assumption that if they're not level based they don't have archetypes. Feel free to play history lesson if you want.
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Might not want to presume to be the god of all knowledgefullness about the game yourself. Not to mention TLG's motives.

Did I say that to you, or you to me. It's a little harsher than I'd like to sound but it would be a good response to you. Thanks.
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Might want to note for the future your completely wrong supposition about me being flippant as well.

Meh, give it up - it was flippant. Enjoy it and move on.
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No we're not. Please stop quoting inaccuracies.

We're? How many people are you?
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I do when people are ascribing motives to me


People? So if it's always happening with multiple people.... Where could the problem be?

Anyhow, relax, step back, and do a jig or something. Or ban me. Whatever floats your boat.

LA does not have levels, but it does have archetypes. Those orders are pretty strict (especially with the errata)... just like a class unless you house rule them to be looser.

K
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Post by serleran »

Quote:
LA does not have levels

Does so. Lejendary ones.

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Post by gideon_thorne »

Kersus wrote:
Meh, give it up - it was flippant. Enjoy it and move on.

No I wont. I've had far too many weary years of people trying to put words in my mouth and ascribing attitudes to me that don't exist. Its not me who needs to drop it.
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I do when people are ascribing motives to me

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People? So if it's always happening with multiple people.... Where could the problem be?

With the clearly mangled perceptions of others.
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Anyhow, relax, step back, and do a jig or something. Or ban me. Whatever floats your boat.

I don't ban people for disagreeing with me. But folks will be slapped down for discourtesy.
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LA does not have levels, but it does have archetypes. Those orders are pretty strict (especially with the errata)... just like a class unless you house rule them to be looser.

Same thing that can be said with Champions and any other non class based system where one can build ability groups with restrictions. Again, tis not an inherent archetype based game. No amount of semantic quibbling will prove otherwise.
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Post by pactmaster »

Maybe slimy can should have the title "Grand Stirrer of Hornet's Nests". That guy can spark multiple controversies and squabbles with one thread.
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Post by serleran »

I miss the Dart of the Hornet's Nest. That was an awesome magic item.

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Re: What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

Post by Kersus »

Jonathan of White Haven wrote:
One of the people in my gaming circle is a dyed-in-the-wool 1E player, and every damned time our group gets together to play our now-C&C modified campaign (mostly C&C, with some reversions to 1E AD&D), he will, at some time during the session, begin to whine that he's just not sure he likes how the game mechanics are going. At least once.

Yeah, I run into people that don't like leaving their favoured system where I like to ply the trade at many different systems. I don't really think the quote about fear of the new applies to the majority of 1e players (many of which have played numerous "new" games throughout their time) who don't love C&C, but 1e has it's fanatics just like any other game. Being fanatical is okay as long as you're right and it doesn't impair your judgement.
Anyhow its no different with some 3e people not wanting to try the old stuff like 1e - but I've wowed a few of them with it and they never went back. Then there's some who have preferences in games but ultimately will play what's being run with little complaint.

As some already know, I weaned someone from 3e to Savage Worlds and then to C&C. He still enjoys 1e and LA, but he's moving towards C&C strong. Hopefully he'll GM me in it so I can give it a whirl.

K
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Post by Zudrak »

serleran wrote:
I miss the Dart of the Hornet's Nest. That was an awesome magic item.

I remember the buzz when that was first released.
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Post by Kersus »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Same thing that can be said with Champions and any other non class based system where one can build ability groups with restrictions. Again, tis not an inherent archetype based game. No amount of semantic quibbling will prove otherwise.

This is one of those things where we're looking at aquamarine paint and I'm saying it's blue and you're saying it's pink. We're not going to agree. When a strong archetype system exists, it does. You can change the definition of the word to fit your view, but that won't change the definition to me.

I can't comment on Champions, but Orders are indeed very similar to classes and have even a ranked growth just like levels if you want to go that far. The archetypes are there, some just choose not to use them. I veer away from them myself because they are strong class-like archetypes and I want to push the limits of what can be made with LA. I'm still looking for the limit and enjoying it.

Anyhow, shall we cease arguing over semantics? Not that I mind the debate Unless you want to start it up in another thread as to leave this one alone and we can debate away.

K
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Post by Troll Lord »

Hey folks,

I'm not going to get into some strange esoteric argument about what constitutes an archetype or what does not. Its a subject too subjective for me.

But TLG's commitment to LA is as it has always been. We will continue to produce and publish Lejendary Adventure so long as the public wants it.

But does C&C get more attention than LA. Sure. Gary made sure of that. Gary launched CZ with us shortly after we took over LA from Hekaforge, and of all his products CZ took front and center. This was by his request and our desire.

From a friend's side: I promised Gary this game would come out as a hardback set and it will.

From the publishers side: At the end of the day, LA, though a great game system has a long hard uphill battle against class based games. IF you can get a consumer to open a C&C PH they will immediately see D&D sitting in front of them. IF you can get them to open an LA book they will not. Its much easier to sell C&C than LA. That is absolutely no reflection on either game, its just a fact of familiarity in the marketplace and consumers don't like change...no matter how good. Gary wanted all his CZ material to be C&C, not LA, as that game best held the spirit of his D&D material and would have the broader appeal to his fans.

That said, LA is a nice line for us. It offers a good diverse portfolio for the gamers out there and that's good enough. Will it ever get the center stage attention that C&C does? Probably not. Why? Because C&C is a familiar game supported by Gary's biggest product: Castle Zagyg. Will we continue to publish LA? Hell yeah. Its a good game. The hardbacks are out this summer (the first one anyways)

Hope that clears up something....

Steve
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Post by SpencerWright »

serleran wrote:
I miss the Dart of the Hornet's Nest. That was an awesome magic item.

OMG! No joke!
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Treebore
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Post by Treebore »

SpencerWright wrote:
OMG! No joke!

Miss it? I don't miss it, its right there in the book!
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Post by serleran »

Now, now, you can't use anything that's not officially converted, right?

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Re: What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

Post by bighara »

Kersus wrote:
Yeah, I run into people that don't like leaving their favoured system where I like to ply the trade at many different systems. I don't really think the quote about fear of the new applies to the majority of 1e players (many of which have played numerous "new" games throughout their time) who don't love C&C, but 1e has it's fanatics just like any other game. Being fanatical is okay as long as you're right and it doesn't impair your judgement.
Anyhow its no different with some 3e people not wanting to try the old stuff like 1e - but I've wowed a few of them with it and they never went back. Then there's some who have preferences in games but ultimately will play what's being run with little complaint.

As some already know, I weaned someone from 3e to Savage Worlds and then to C&C. He still enjoys 1e and LA, but he's moving towards C&C strong. Hopefully he'll GM me in it so I can give it a whirl.

K

I just had a strange email exchange with someone from my group. We've all been discussing what to play next. We've been playing WFRP. A lot of systems and genres have been tossed into the hat. I offered to run C&C or classic D&D set in Mystara- or play in most anything if somebody else wanted to GM. His response was that he'd "strongly prefer" not to play C&C, but suggested 1e. He's played C&C before (once, briefly), but never struck me as a big 1e fan. I'm confused why someone would be so against a C&C game, but be OK with 1e
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