What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

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Post by Treebore »

tacojohn4547 wrote:
Man, Tree, 7 typed pages of house rules??? What the hell did you need 7 pages of house rules for with 1E? What all did you need house rules for anyway?
For our group's current Caverns of Thracia campaign, my house rules barely surpassed 1 page, and most of that was dealing with the critical hit and bad miss table from Dragon magazine.

tacojohn4547

Well, I am going from things nearly 20 years ago, but I will recall as much as I can. A fair amount of one or two pages was dedicated to what rules we did not use in 1E, like racial level limits, gone. Weapons versus various armor types, gone. Multi and dual classing rules, seriously altered. That probably took up half to 3/4 of a page right there.

I am also pretty sure 1e is where we/I changed energy drain into being recovered if the creature that did the energy drain was destroyed within 24 hours.

We also modified/nerfed several spells, such as HAste and a few others.

We added equipment, weapons and armor from Paladium and Arduin.

WE created Parry rules based on what was in Paladium.

Anything we altered or added from other rules systems or from Dragon was described or referenced in that house document, We put into the house document to refer to.
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Post by sieg »

As early as 6 years ago, my house rules were about 6 pages or so. Oddly I found the longer I stayed at dragonsfoot the more my 1E game went BTB. So now its 2 1/2.

Of course, my C&C House Rules are only one side of a page!
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Post by serleran »

I think I'm going to go as retro as you can go... I'm going to play some OD&D.

AD&D is for pansies.

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Post by Traveller »

I'd offer you a copy of my set, but while most of it is as Gary wrote it, some definite changes have been made to make the game my own.
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Post by Harry Joy »

SpencerWright wrote:
Like Peter said, do not go posting this over at DF or like boards...
seskis281 wrote:
Peter's point is well-taken...

*grumble grumble grumble* SOMEone said it in the fourth post of the thread as well. *grumble*
K2h2m3 wrote:
That would be why The Crusader needs to be put forward.

This.

C&C needs more of a presence, and a monthly, OK - bi-monthly, tri-monthly even, magazine will get you more coverage than a dozen books, IF, and only if, you can get it on the shelves in the game stores. Sure, that PHB will sit for a while and get a million looks, but a cheap magazine? They never last on the shelf forever. Someone will eventually pick it up.

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Post by K2h2m3 »

I've watched people flip through current editons of White Dwarf that have absolutely no intrest in GW products. The point is that a magazine almost always gets an initial flip through at the counter.

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Re: What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

Post by CharlieRock »

slimykuotoan wrote:
...who haven't come over to C&C yet?

Weird.

Sometimes the name on the cover does matter.
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Post by Julian Grimm »

sieg wrote:
In fact, Julian's post didn't seem to be a comment on the game but on some of its more virulent defenders. Which is probably a whole other topic really.

Which one was that? Sorry my brains a bit fuzzy here. It's 3am and I have had 10 hours of running parts that make your brain turn to jello.
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Post by TheNewGuy »

Yamo wrote:
"For grognard ultra-purists, any change to the 'holy writ' of classic D&D is unacceptable, and punishable by death and scorn, in that order."

I guess I'm just saying that C&C also seems to have its own strident "one-true-way" proponents.

Absolutely true. Please note, though, that I was speaking directly to treebore's original question, and that I was attempting to make a distinction between intolerant "grognard ultra-purists" and your friendly neighborhood gaming grognards, who happen to love what they love.

I was also trying to be funny while making my point, and that's usually when I seem to confuse or irritate the widest sampling of readers.
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Post by slimykuotoan »

That's one thing with with posting: it's hard to discern intentions behind the posts.

Tis true, I am a HUGE AD&D fan.

I simply love it.

AND I loooove C&C, partially because I can use all o' my AD&D goodies.

For me, two systems are a match made in the 7 heavens.

That sayed though, I really am curious as to whether most 1Eers have ever tried C&C.

Curious, because there's a forum on dragonsfoot, and curious, because I fell head over heels for C&C.
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Post by seskis281 »

slimykuotoan wrote:
That's one thing with with posting: it's hard to discern intentions behind the posts.

Tis true, I am a HUGE AD&D fan.

I simply love it.

AND I loooove C&C, partially because I can use all o' my AD&D goodies.

For me, two systems are a match made in the 7 heavens.

That sayed though, I really am curious as to whether most 1Eers have ever tried C&C.

Curious, because there's a forum on dragonsfoot, and curious, because I fell head over heels for C&C.

Absolutely and a good question -- for some reason good intents always end uo murkier through the filter of message boards (amazing how many times I've posted an agreement with someone and it was taken as an attack... gotta watch my phrasing sometimes , especially on ENWORLD).

I agree - I think there's a large community out there who simply aren't looking at C&C because, well, frankly it doesn't have "D&D" on the cover. There's also a number of voices vociferously against it (for whatever reasons).

The truth is TLG is doing a good job with the limitations of being a very small company. Publicitiy and marketing are costly endeavors when you're not looking to ship the volume of a Hasbro/WotC.

I have hopes that a regular, monthly Crusader, not just shipped to fans here but put onto FLGS shelves would help greatly. I think the release of Castle Zagyg should draw a lot of interest.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

seskis281 wrote:
I think the release of Castle Zagyg should draw a lot of interest.

Ayup. And if folks want to play it with a game that isn't C&C, more power too em.
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Post by Rhuvein »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Ayup. And if folks want to play it with a game that isn't C&C, more power too em.

Bingo!!!
Zagygopoly . . .

Boardwalk = Castle Zagyg

Park Place = Dark Chateau

Hotels = castles

Houses = country manors or chateaux

Railroads = city entrance gates

GO = LG (Lake Geneva)

Lessee . . .

Oriental Adventures Avenue

Wisconsin Avenue

Mordenkainen Gardens

Green Dragon properties

etc, etc.

I like it!!
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Post by sieg »

Julian Grimm wrote:
Which one was that? Sorry my brains a bit fuzzy here. It's 3am and I have had 10 hours of running parts that make your brain turn to jello.

Sorry Julian...my bad. I meant Harry Joy's comment about trying to evangelize 1E-ers; which I agree with the sentiments of (for the most part). That reaction has little to do with a game and more to do with radical supporters. Of ANY game. Even C&C.
Re: Crusader mag. Well, its really been a "Chicken or the Egg" problem as I see it. Advertizers and FLGS don't want to stock a magazine unless its monthly. Its hard to get a monthly magazine going with little to no budget and the difficulty of 2-3 people doing all the work at a game co./mag publisher. But I do think that if Jim Ward, Steve and Elizabeth can get things finally on a monthly basis and keep it going for 4-6 months then I believe we'll see advertisers moving in (with $$$) and FLGS's willing to take a chance on the Crusader.

After all, FLGS were reluctant to take a chance on C&C at the beginning. "Another D20 book? No way!"..."No its not a D20 book"..."Sure looks like one!". Etc. Etc. Ad nauseum.

But they did and now we're in the middle of 3rd printing!

But, as is oft said, timing is everything.
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Post by BLOOD AXE »

serleran wrote:
I think I'm going to go as retro as you can go... I'm going to play some OD&D.

AD&D is for pansies.

You mean the old boxed set?? When races were classes?? (Elf, Dwarf, Halfling)

I really like C&C, I just think you have to be more aggressive in advertising & getting the word out.
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Post by Treebore »

BLOOD AXE wrote:
You mean the old boxed set?? When races were classes?? (Elf, Dwarf, Halfling)

I really like C&C, I just think you have to be more aggressive in advertising & getting the word out.

I tried to get the word out. Everyone who knew to feel their 3E, and now 4e, was threatened by C&C quickly labled me a 3E hating fan boy. Still, I know I helped a few people buy C&C.
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Post by Kersus »

gideon_thorne wrote:
Any game is going to be abandoned, eventually, when there is no longer support for it. How many Atari players do you still see out there? Its going to be the same for AD&D when all the books wear out from being passed from household to household and collection to collection.

Well, if my Atari machine still worked I'd be playing it. Heck even my nieces and nephews love those Atari joysticks that plug into your TV now.

To be honest I still enjoy the old Pong machines.

The problem with Atari was the lack of usable machines (and the joysticks broke easy) more than being outdated (but it is outdated - yet still fun). AD&D still has solid mint books available and is not outdated - just different from what else is available. Dragonsfoot puts out material and now with OSRIC, commercial material is out again. Is it competition for C&C.... Not really. They're different games, but it's nice that conversions aren't too hard.

AD&D is alive and strong. C&C is still really in it's infancy and growing. I wouldn't even know about C&C if it wasn't for EGG bringing LA to TLG. His name shone light upon C&C.

Will I play C&C? Yes. I'm certain someday I will (and yes I've read the books). Will it replace AD&D for me? Highly unlikely - but who knows.

I too was burned out on D20 and won't go back. I started on 1e, and now prefer an OD&D/HackMaster4 Hybrid, Silhouette, and LA (although nothing feels as much like HOME as OAD&D).

C&C is not the next step of AD&D though, but just a different game inspired by it using some 3e mechanics and then it's own unique coolness.

C&C to AD&D is BFRPG to OD&D.

LA holds the spirit of OD&D more to me than C&C (but I haven't seen C&C in play yet and keep my mind open) and has archetypes for those who like them too.

Anyhow, it's all fun and games. For whatever my opinion, I pushed my nephew to explore C&C because I thought it'd be up his alley and he seems to like it.

I'm not a fan of the divisions between the gamers who really have so much in common. C&C, OSRIC, 1e, OD&D, BD&D, BFRPG, etc.... They each have their own fanatics, but I think most fall in the more moderate level and the crazy talk just disrupts things. Then again, debates can be exciting.

For me, I'm here for LA and CZ. C&C is a maybe someday, but I'm glad it's on the market.



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Post by gideon_thorne »

Kersus wrote:
For me, I'm here for LA and CZ. C&C is a maybe someday, but I'm glad it's on the market.

*chuckles* Sure. I encourage folks to pick up LA too. It's grand for those who like none archetype systems....

Like myself for example.

I even busted up the Archetypes in C&C with a combination of various house rules and additions.

Myself and TLG certainly encourage people to have a ball with whatever game they enjoy.
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Post by sieg »

Nah Bloodaxe, I think he's talking about even earlier; "Little Brown" book D&D. Am I right?

Will it be with supplements or with Chain Mail? What about Outdoor Survival?
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Post by serleran »

Chainmail (a Guidon Games version at that!) and Outdoor Survival, of course. No supplements, though I did read them... too many fancy things like paladins and thieves! Bah!

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Post by anglefish »

Some other factors I've seen:

After serious house ruling, a lot of GMs have tweaked the game to match their style. To switch games, is to chuck out decades of playtesting and the good memories associated with it.

It's also it's amazing how a gamer will feel "cheated" out the value of his book if he can't play until the binding breaks down.

I once had GM put his next campaign up for a vote, and I made him a bet that he'd be running Forgotten Realms. I collected the cash as everyone showed up next week with books older than my teenage son.

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Post by Catweazle »

pactmaster wrote:
You know, slimy, I think that a moderator/administrator should give you the title of "Mr Controversial Thread Title Starter".

Yeah, he does that sometimes!
I reckon the simple fact is that they already have a system they know, like and are comfortable with. They like to play that game, so they play it. End of.

Now me, I came from the opposite direction. I wanted a clean, clear, fast-paced and easy-to-learn system, setting-generic, so I could play fantasy games in my won created worlds with it.

And Lo! Here it was.
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Post by slimykuotoan »

O.K.

I'm gonna need to settle this once and for all...

Yes, it's true that I worship Satin.

I just love the way it feels against my skin...
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Post by SpencerWright »

slimykuotoan wrote:
O.K.

I'm gonna need to settle this once and for all...

Yes, it's true that I worship Satin.

I just love the way it feels against my skin...

Oh. Look who finally crawled out of his slimy hole to revel in the fecal whirlwind he created...
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Post by Matthew »

I have to admit, I didn't really buy into C&C for the rules system itself. It's nice to have a C&C PHB and M&T, and it was cool to be able to give out PHBs to my friends as (post) Christmas gifts, but the primary reason I bought into C&C was for the AD&D compatable adventure modules, campaign settings and so on. In large part, it also had to do with the kind of people here on the forums and the ethos of the company.
Basic Dungeons & Dragons, Labyrinth Lord, Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, OSRIC and Castles & Crusades are all part of the same basic family to me. D20 is a distant cousin, who I occasionaly speak to, but don't really get on with all that well. The primary reason I didn't get into C&C earlier was because I had little idea what it was, even from reading the advertising in KoDT. Until I actually obtained a free pdf copy of the Quick Start Rules, I was completely oblivious to its nature an uninvested in the products.

I am pretty thrifty when it comes to RPGs. In the past, I generally bought the core rulebooks and the occasional campaign setting, but by and large preferred to run my own campaign world. That's still true to a great degree, but I also like the convenience of having a module on hand to run when I am too busy to prepare anything (increasingly often the case these days). I have also come to prefer fairly light systems over heavier skill based ones for similar reasons, but also because I think they lend themselves better to a more freeform style of play.

In any case, I haven't really come over to C&C from anywhere, I have just added it to my collection of rule sets and use it in conjunction with the ones that happen to suit my desires and circumstances.
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Post by sieg »

Well said, Matthew! Providing product for OOP A/D&D players was a design goal and I'm glad to see it worked in your case.

I remember someone on dragonsfoot who complained that C&C might "kill" 1E AD&D by drawing its base away. I spoke to Steve and Davis at a convention at the time and they said that hurting OOP AD&D was the last thing on their minds. Certainly not desired.

So, to those who play OOP A/D&D and only buy C&C stuff for additions to that game....then more power to you!
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Post by Kersus »

gideon_thorne wrote:
*chuckles* Sure. I encourage folks to pick up LA too. It's grand for those who like none archetype systems....

Like myself for example.

I even busted up the Archetypes in C&C with a combination of various house rules and additions.

Myself and TLG certainly encourage people to have a ball with whatever game they enjoy.

Uh.... I don't get it. LA has a solid set of archetypes. Y'know - the orders? It has all the tools for archetype gaming and freeform and the intermingling of both while being balanced (although the pesky kobolds can be troublesome).
Its this flippant attitude towards LA that has always made me wonder what TLG really thought of Gary's game. Luckily one doesn't HAVE to make a choice between the two and can just have both.

C&C seems to fill the AD&D/D20 gap, but I find LA has a more open ended feel like OD&D but with all the fleshing out while remaining rules-lite.

K
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Post by gideon_thorne »

Kersus wrote:
Uh.... I don't get it. LA has a solid set of archetypes. Y'know - the orders? It has all the tools for archetype gaming and freeform and the intermingling of both while being balanced (although the pesky kobolds can be troublesome).

Well. I do get it. I read Gary's comments as well as anyone else when he said 'classless game'. An order may fulfill a defining role, but its not a class or level based. Which is what I was describing when I said archetype. Something long associated with a class and level based system. Otherwise I suspect Gary wouldn't have conceived of the Lejendary Levels idea.
Quote:
Its this flippant attitude towards LA that has always made me wonder what TLG really thought of Gary's game. Luckily one doesn't HAVE to make a choice between the two and can just have both

When I am making an accurate technical statement describing one game as having class and levels (archetypes), and one that doesn't, its not being flippant. It would be nice if people would stop assuming negativity on my part when I'm just describing a fact. ^_~`

And when I'm making an observation, it's me talking not TLG.
Quote:
C&C seems to fill the AD&D/D20 gap, but I find LA has a more open ended feel like OD&D but with all the fleshing out while remaining rules-lite.

Certainly, 'feel' is something nebulous and subjective and entirely a matter of perspective. ^_^
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Post by cuchulainkevin »

Kersus wrote:
gideon_thorne wrote:
Kersus wrote:
Its this flippant attitude towards LA that has always made me wonder what TLG really thought of Gary's game. Luckily one doesn't HAVE to make a choice between the two and can just have both.

K

I think it's safe to say that they thought enough of it to publish the Essentials boxed set and a bunch of supplements. I have sitting right next to me here
From what I understand a revised ruleset is in the offering. Plus support in Crusader.

My guess is (no proof, mind you) that the Trolls like LA just fine.
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Post by gideon_thorne »

cuchulainkevin wrote:
My guess is (no proof, mind you) that the Trolls like LA just fine.

We do. Which is why their art and layout guy is busting his ass, with little sleep, to make a clean and easy to read presentation for the first core book. All the while adding voluminous amounts of revisions and errata. ^_~`
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