What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:15 am

...who haven't come over to C&C yet?

Weird.

pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 1:40 am

You know, slimy, I think that a moderator/administrator should give you the title of "Mr Controversial Thread Title Starter". There is a knack you have of delivering a cornball sentence that is certain to get people fired up and then they look inside.

To answer the question, some people are comfortable with 1e and really, with new products coming out with that Other Other Game (the Other game just being current D&D) they are fine. The best game you can play is the one you truly enjoy.
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slimykuotoan · Post by **slimykuotoan** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:02 am

mmm...tasty cornballs.

Seriously though, after looking at the number of registered users on dragonsfoot, I couldn't help be genuinely curious...

I really loooved 1E, and it was a constant companion throughout most of my life.

And when I found C&C, I easily made the transition.

Even though I do understand each person has their own tastes, I can't help but wonder if many 1Eers are simply not aware of what C&C has to offer...as opposed to simply disliking it.

Hmm...truly, is C&C exposed enough to 'old schoolers'?

Are there thousands out there still waiting to 'find' C&C?

How awesome it would be to tap into that pool...

Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:07 am

Well, I would suggest that you are already looking at recruits from that pool here every day, although some of us were side-tracked by 3.x. And I wouldn't suggest trying to evangelise the folks still playing 1st. Such attempts seem to put them off their feed, and lead to any number of "C&C Players are all ass-holes"-type posts.

hth

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:07 am

I think that it's exposed plenty to the 1E people who still play, but there are those who won't play it simply because it isn't 1E. It doesn't matter if the flavor is the same; the mechanics are different and that's enough to keep them out. I remember one time a guy I knew who was a total vintage guitar junky and I were discussing PRS guitars and I mentioned my admiration for their instruments. My friend asks me, "So you would trade your Les Paul Custom straight-up for a PRS? Why would you want a copy when you have the real thing." I told him that it isn't a copy, but an improvement on the original. People don't still drive Model T Fords no matter how revolutionary they may have been.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:31 am

I suppose I could go into a very long exposition and rant as to why, citing numerous posts, forums and links. But instead of that, I can sum it up with one thing.

"Some people are very frightened of change" James T Kirk.

slimykuotoan wrote:
Even though I do understand each person has their own tastes, I can't help but wonder if many 1Eers are simply not aware of what C&C has to offer...as opposed to simply disliking it.

Hmm...truly, is C&C exposed enough to 'old schoolers'?

I will give you this advice. Unless your wearing asbestos underwear, I highly recommend NOT going to any dedicated 1E sites and trying to promote the game. This advice comes from 5 years of experience dealing with some of the most absurd and illogical rantings about 'old school purity' and whatnot I've ever seen.

Instead, just go to game stores, book stores, and conventions where a more open minded sort of gamer hangs out, and bring people in one at a time.
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jamesmishler · Post by **jamesmishler** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:48 am

I think the basic answer is "It works for them."

When TSR published 2nd Edition AD&D, they lost a LOT of customers. Some of these stopped playing altogether, others simply continued playing AD&D 1E. Many people who play have no need of buying new products; that's one of the great things about RPGs, is that once you have the "core rules," you really only need dice, imagination, and friends for an infinite variety of games.

I know that sounds weird, especially coming from a guy who publishes games that hopefully people will want to buy. But that is the reality. Hell, there are gamers out there who continue to play OD&D, and never really bought in on AD&D.

The idea is if it ain't broke, don't fix it. They have fun with the game they have; C&C is not superior to AD&D 1E (or any other RPG) on its ability for people to have fun. Technically speaking, yes, it is superior to many games, especially in its combination of classic RPG themes using modern streamlined RPG systems. And for those who enjoy seeing what other people have to offer in adventures, campaign settings, and other gaming materials, it allows for a wide variety.

C&C makes an excellent alternative for the 1E fans... but most of them have not, as yet, seen the need to make the change to the alternative. And many of them never will.

That's why I am really looking forward to the C&C Basic Set. It will introduce a whole new generation of gamers to C&C, just as the D&D Basic Set did for many of us. Converting old 1E players to C&C is gravy compared to the meat & potatoes of minting all-new gamers with the Basic Set.
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:10 am

I have to admit if I had stayed with 1E I probably wouldn't switch to C&C either. My biggest motivator to switch to C&C was that my many, many, many, many 3E books would still be of use, and my many, many, many, many books from all the earlier editions of D&D would become useful again.

If I had stayed with 1E I wouldn't have even been looking for another system, most likely. So I would probably be on Dragonsfoot playing 1E and saying "Why should I switch to C&C? I am happy with what I am doing."

Only if I had finally become dissatisfied with all the weirdness of 1E and all the house rules I had to create to make it work would I have been looking for C&C. Which is why I moved on to 2E. Then 3E. Then C&C. Now I am finally with a rules set that I believe I will be staying where I am for good.
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BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:23 am

Im a new fan of C&C, so maybe I can shed a bit of light on the subject.

The absolute number one reason I didn't start C&C was this:

I was not even aware it existed. Point blank.

There isnt alot of advertising for C&C. I only found out about it by accident. I saw a review on RPG.net(I think) while looking for another game.(I forget which,LOL.) I think C&C should advertise more. Pick related sites like WHFB forums(Bugman's Brewery, Warhammer Empire, or others) or other fantasy game sites.

I think there are ALOT of potential C&C lovers out there.....they just need to be reached!! They are probably totally unaware that C&C exists.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:42 am

BLOOD AXE wrote:
Pick related sites like WHFB forums(Bugman's Brewery, Warhammer Empire, or others) or other fantasy game sites.

*smiles* Well, I suspect that a lot of folks who don't frequent the web, and even some who do, have never heard of those sites, myself for example.

It should be noted that the majority of TLG's customers, about 90% or so, don't come to this forum, or any forum or site related to gaming.

Just a little factoid to be aware of.
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K2h2m3 · Post by **K2h2m3** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:02 am

That would be why The Crusader needs to be put forward.

pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:04 am

You might also note that many people on the Dungeon Delver messageboard and the Knights & Knaves forum also post here and many are proponents of C&C.

Too bad that 90% of the TLG customers can dismiss this place so easily, can you imagine the unlimited material and discussion if just 35% of them turned up here?
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Deserve has nothing to do with it, if you think you're entitled. You're not.

--Stephen Chenault

Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

J. R. R. Tolkien

Lord Falcon MacGreggor · Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:08 am

BLOOD AXE wrote:
Im a new fan of C&C, so maybe I can shed a bit of light on the subject.

The absolute number one reason I didn't start C&C was this:

I was not even aware it existed. Point blank.

There isnt alot of advertising for C&C. I only found out about it by accident. I saw a review on RPG.net(I think) while looking for another game.(I forget which,LOL.) I think C&C should advertise more. Pick related sites like WHFB forums(Bugman's Brewery, Warhammer Empire, or others) or other fantasy game sites.

I think there are ALOT of potential C&C lovers out there.....they just need to be reached!! They are probably totally unaware that C&C exists.

Me too, I found C&C only when I was directed here from a net search. I started with OD&D, (The red cover books), and have incorporated parts of each of the following editions (Except for 3.0 whicxh I skipped over, mainly because I didn't know they had done it.) And have now acquired the QuickStart rules for C&C, and am incorporating parts of that file into my game until I can get the core books to study.

Personally, I know players that still play each version of D&D, and follow each version of rules like its a bible to their own individual games. As for others, they take each version and add or change parts to suit the enjoyment factor for their players.

I found that its a personal choice for many players that I have talked with, and for others, they are always looking for the next fix.
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tacojohn4547 · Post by **tacojohn4547** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:42 am

Heh - great topic, for the more open minded sort of gamers just hanging out here at TLG!
I still play 1st Edition AD&D, but not because I consider it better or somehow "superior" than 3.x/d20 or C&C, or any other FRPG for that matter. I still play AD&D because it is the rules system that I know the best and therefore which leverages my years of gaming experience.

By sticking with what I know, I haven't had to learn new ordering of the spell lists that WoTC came up with for 3.x. By sticking with the rules system I've gamed with for virtually all of my adult life, I haven't had to worry about or be confused by the different currency ratios that D&D 3.x or C&C have employed in their respective core rules. By sticking with 1st Edition AD&D, a fairly strict class-level oriented game system, I haven't had to worry about skills and feats, feat prerequsites, skill tracks, and all of the cumbersome rules that flow from rules systems that incorporate skills and feats. Speaking of silly whatnot.

But even more importantly than leveraging my knowledge of the rules, I still play 1st Edition AD&D principally because the group of guys that I game with, some of whom I've gamed with since high school and some of whom I've known since grade school, simply prefer to play AD&D over all of the other alternatives. Several in the group have tried D&D 3.x as well as C&C, but for our tastes, nothing quite satisfies like AD&D. Does that make our group, or at least some of our members, 1st Edition AD&D snobs? Probably so, but in the end, it's merely a matter of personal preference.

Even so, I'm a pretty strong supporter of C&C and TLG. My gaming collection and my checkbook would clearly attest that I've bought more than my share of products in support of the C&C game system. I've even penned some soon-to-be published material for C&C. And if I didn't already have a group of eager gamers that preferred AD&D to everything else, well, I'm pretty sure I'd have us playing C&C.
tacojohn4547

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 7:29 am

S'funny. I actually started with 2e and Dmed Mentzer basic for my little brother and his friends. I saw 1e books back then and used the hell out of them. C'mon the 1e MM had the DEMONS and DEVILS what kid in that era didn't want that?

Now that I am older I actually like a lot of 1e better than 2e but I went with C&C for these main reasons:

* It's easier to teach C&C to new gamers than it is AD&D. I know I tried teaching AD&D to my players it ended not so good.

* Compatability with my 1e and 2e material as well as some D20.

* It is in print and feels like AD&D and BD&D

* The kick tail company that runs it.

Sure my 1e stuff sees a lot of use while 2e and 3e collect dust but to me 1e fits C&C better.
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TheNewGuy · Post by **TheNewGuy** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 8:21 am

slimykuotoan wrote:
...who haven't come over to C&C yet?

Weird.

In this, one of C&C's strengths is also considered a "weakness" by some -- basically, it's not merely a "retro-clone" game; it tries to carry forward the spirit and intention behind classic D&D while adopting better/smoother/smarter modern mechanics as where useful.

For grognard ultra-purists, any change to the "holy writ" of classic D&D is unacceptable, and punishable by death and scorn, in that order.

These folks will just keep playing 1e with their old books and/or the PDF versions of same, forever. They don't even like straight-up clone games like OSRIC or Labyrinth Lord because they're built from the d20/OGL liscense, and anything even remotely d20 is, to them, nothing less than the devil's poo ...

I also know some guys who went back to 1e recently because of what you could call "rules fatigue" -- after years with 2e, 3.x, and with 4e in the offing, they just got tired of it all and went back to the system they all knew best and found easiest to run and play.

I'd recommend C&C to them (I have, casually, already) but they're not ready to convert to anything new right now, and may never be again.

TheNewGuy

BLOOD AXE · Post by **BLOOD AXE** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 10:52 am

gideon_thorne wrote:
*smiles* Well, I suspect that a lot of folks who don't frequent the web, and even some who do, have never heard of those sites, myself for example.

It should be noted that the majority of TLG's customers, about 90% or so, don't come to this forum, or any forum or site related to gaming.

Just a little factoid to be aware of.

That might be true, I certainly don't doubt you. But if you advertised on those fantasy game related sites, you wouldnt be stepping on another RPG games toes, if you get what I mean. Also, "sponsoring" a site like that by being an advertiser can't cost that much. Bartertown, Bugman's Brewery,Warhammer-Empire, Ogre Stronghold, Chaos-Dwarf online,etc. (and similar sites) are always looking to defray costs. Those members are already interested in fantasy games obviously. Im a member of several of those forums(and a MOD on one) so I might be able to help if you're interested.

Just an idea.

Moorcrys · Post by **Moorcrys** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:42 am

I'm smooshing the two systems together, though its taking me a long time. CSperkins inspired me.

I love the Siege engine and a bunch of stuff from C&C. But I like the classes and exp. progression tables from 1e better. And I like the spells from AD&D better than the C&Cized 3e spells. So I'm squishing and adding a few house rules. It's working out pretty well.
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Harry Joy · Post by **Harry Joy** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:59 am

pactmaster wrote:
Too bad that 90% of the TLG customers can dismiss this place so easily, can you imagine the unlimited material and discussion if just 35% of them turned up here?

The vast majority of people don't bother with forums and such at all. All people, not just gamers. They use the internet to pay bills, check email, shop for shoes, and log out. I know people who can go weeks without checking their emails. And they all think I'm weird for coming online everyday and saying howdy to my "virtual friends".

SpencerWright · Post by **SpencerWright** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:00 pm

slimykuotoan wrote:
...who haven't come over to C&C yet?

Weird.

Like Peter said, do not go posting this over at DF or like boards. Whew, Slimy, you are letting your inner troll out to play I suppose. Even I had to force myself to put the blowtorch down.
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:01 pm

Harry Joy wrote:
The vast majority of people don't bother with forums and such at all. All people, not just gamers. They use the internet to pay bills, check email, shop for shoes, and log out. I know people who can go weeks without checking their emails. And they all think I'm weird for coming online everyday and saying howdy to my "virtual friends".

Howdy! Thanks for sharing your e-joy with us.

As for the "old school" discussion, I began with the Erol Otus-covered BD&D. From there, we moved on to AD&D and bought, but did not really use, 2e.

When I stopped gaming for 10 years, I came back in time for 3e's release. Unhappy with 2e, I was open to trying 3e. It was pleasing at first but as the PC's levelled up, I was becoming disgruntled with the paperwork necessary as DM. So, I tried talking my players into going back to 1e AD&D. No luck.

In 2005, I was referred to C&C by EGG and Peter Bradley and my players allowed me to give it a go. Personal things have disrupted it over the last 3 years, but I now have 9, possibly 10, players interested in gaming and will play C&C without reservations. 4 of them are 3e vets, 2 (maybe 3) are 1e-era vets, and 3 are brand-new. Then there's me.

Had I not stopped for 10 years, I very well could still be a 1e AD&D guy. But I don't think I'd be so entrenched in the game that I'd be unwilling to try other things, otherwise we never would have given Powers & Perils from Avalon Hill or MERP a try.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:46 pm

BLOOD AXE wrote:
That might be true, I certainly don't doubt you. But if you advertised on those fantasy game related sites, you wouldnt be stepping on another RPG games toes, if you get what I mean. Also, "sponsoring" a site like that by being an advertiser can't cost that much. Bartertown, Bugman's Brewery,Warhammer-Empire, Ogre Stronghold, Chaos-Dwarf online,etc. (and similar sites) are always looking to defray costs. Those members are already interested in fantasy games obviously. Im a member of several of those forums(and a MOD on one) so I might be able to help if you're interested.

Just an idea.

TLG's certainly not going to stop folks from spreading, via the digital word of mouth, comments on our products on websites or forums that are open to such.

As for any sort of paid advertising, that generally has to be negotiated through through Steve.
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jfall · Post by **jfall** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:55 pm

I'm rather new to C&C as well... and like a few of you, I absolutely stumbled upon it by accident. The advertising for C&C is practically non-existent. I would hazard a guess and say that there's a bit of a revival in older editions of Dungeons and Dragons. Partially due to WotC releasing all those books in PDF form again. And also partially due to dissatisfaction with the direction that the current iteration of the game is going... nuff said there.

But, I'd have to say, if it weren't for me literally stumbling across a mention of C&C on some forum somewhere, I nearly guarantee you that I'd be playing OSRIC or true20 at the moment...and not C&C.

Once I found it though, it was a no-brainer for me. It was just what I was looking for: A game that hearkens back to the glory days of Dungeons and Dragons while still adhering to modern rules conventions for simplicity's sake. A perfect marriage...
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 3:57 pm

Which makes the success of C&C all the more interesting.
I agree: needs better marketing.

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:10 pm

I was another gamer who accidently stumbled into C&C. I would never have found out about it either, if a poster on another board had not told me about it after I had inquired about an easier RPG that my kids could play.

I had given up on 3.0/3.5 D&D and was playing ICE's HARP, when I found out about C&C. Now I am sold on C&C and I don't see myself ever going back to D&D 3.0/3.5.

The good news is that all of my old 1st & 2nd Ed AD&D modules, books, and stuff are now useful again with C&C.
We need to advertise C&C more!
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pactmaster · Post by **pactmaster** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:13 pm

While I honestly would (and do-heck it cost me to buy extra C&C PHBs and hand them out) promote the game on my own, I feel that if TLG had an incentive program that they would have a little army of advertisers out there reaching the places that are not being covered. Some companies have demonstration programs that are actually fairly spiffy, although I believe that if you feel strongly enough about a game that you will demonstrate it on your own. I guess what I am saying is that while I would continue promoting in my own way, I think that TLG could have a neat demonstration program.
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Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens.

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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:21 pm

pactmaster wrote:
While I honestly would (and do-heck it cost me to buy extra C&C PHBs and hand them out) promote the game on my own, I feel that if TLG had an incentive program that they would have a little army of advertisers out there reaching the places that are not being covered. Some companies have demonstration programs that are actually fairly spiffy, although I believe that if you feel strongly enough about a game that you will demonstrate it on your own. I guess what I am saying is that while I would continue promoting in my own way, I think that TLG could have a neat demonstration program.

Well, this is the reason why I constantly suggest going into game shops and talking to the store owner about running demo's.

It costs the person doing the demo absolutely nothing but time. IF the players are happy, they will order the game from the store owner, which makes them happy.

Word of mouth is still the best advertizing.
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Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:24 pm

serleran wrote:
Which makes the success of C&C all the more interesting.
I agree: needs better marketing.

Hmm. Maybe a little "truth in advertising" campaign?

- "Sure we had typos at the beginning, but we won't have half-editions to clear up the rules and then charge 150% more for the newer books"

- C&C - it's Swords and Sorcery, unleaded (or plastic, if you like those sorts of minis)

- Castles & Crusades: The game so intriguing even people who hate it can't stop talking about it. (Thanks to Peter B. for this, his former signature, paraphrased as best I could remember it)

- C&C: All the refreshing clean gaming you want with no corporate aftertaste.

- C&C: The rules are light so you can go heavy on the imagination.

Just a few off the top of my head. Print and disseminate...
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"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

Aladar · Post by **Aladar** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:27 pm

Zudrak,

I am going to have to make banners out of:

C&C - it's Swords and Sorcery, unleaded (or plastic, if you like those sorts of minis)

C&C: The rules are light so you can go heavy on the imagination.

I really like the first one!
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http://www.cncsociety.org/

Zudrak · Post by **Zudrak** » Tue Mar 25, 2008 4:29 pm

Alwyn wrote:
Zudrak,

I am going to have to make banners out of:

C&C - it's Swords and Sorcery, unleaded (or plastic, if you like those sorts of minis)

C&C: The rules are light so you can go heavy on the imagination.

I really like the first one!

Cool, and thanks! I was told I missed my calling in marketing. Perhaps not!
_________________
AD&D, Amish Dungeons & Dragons.

"Galstaff, ye are in a cornfield, when a moustachioed man approaches. What say ye?"

"I shun him."

-----

"Knowledge, logic, reason, and common sense serve better than a dozen rule books."

-- E. Gary Gygax

Troll Lord Games

What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

Re: What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

Re: What's the deal with all the 1E fans...

Re: What's the deal with all the 1E fans...