Hackmaster?

Thulcondar · Post by **Thulcondar** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:34 pm

See, I've been out of gaming too long. I just stumbled across something called Hackmaster that seems to be laying claim to the same "old school goodness" territory as C&C.

Anybody able to tell me some of the differences between the two?

Thul

vestinious · Post by **vestinious** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:19 pm

Hackmaster uses the classic 1st edition AD&D rules and is a comic game , lots of monster basing and +20 weapons .

If you take a look at HM some of the rules are just mad and thats quite an understatement.

The times that I have ran it were very good games but the long term campaigning didnt work IMO, and the spell/Magic items were silly (but thats the point so no issue).

Also if you want monsters be prepared to spend, spend, spend ( the monsters books come in if I remember 10+ volumes).

Rog

Thulcondar · Post by **Thulcondar** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:21 pm

Ah, thanks. At first it looked like a kind of updated AD&D. Definitely don't have the time for a "silly" game system.

Thul

vestinious · Post by **vestinious** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:23 pm

Check out http://www.kenzerco.com/ for more info and the monsters books 8 +1 extra.

I should also add that its "based" on the AD&D rules and is a variant of them, the latest version of HM is in it 4th edition.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:35 pm

HACKMASTER, although on the surface looks silly, can be as serious as you would like. HM is essentially an update of 1E, with some 2E thrown in, and a smattering of new stuff... unfortunatly the game has a lot of rules in it, especially if you want to play by the hard-fast rules presented in the book. I also think HM is very tough for a DM, especially since it is that position that is required to known ALL of these rules, backwards and forwards (it says so in the game).

Eh, *shrugs* I wanted to like HACKMASTER much more then I did. I gave up on the game years ago.

...........................................Omote

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vestinious · Post by **vestinious** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:41 pm

Omote same here.

I tried to play it straight but the slant to the comic side of it keeps coming through, also the rules are a headache to the GM.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:47 pm

Yes, it is a very rules heavy game. Even though it's familair material to old-school D&Ders, it was still pretty daunting to master.

......................................Omote

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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:50 pm

There are some really neat things in HackMaster, like the honor system and some of the monsters. However, because the monsters are split into 8 separate books (yes, 8), I decided it was far too expensive just to be able to play. Otherwise, things like the Spellslingers Guide ae fun. HM, in every way, is much more complex than C&C.

Omote · Post by **Omote** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:57 pm

I love the system of Attribute Improvement.

Included with each attribute score is a percentile sub-attibute score. Once this sub-score gets to 100% the attribute is raised by 1 point. Every class impoves in this attribute sub-score every level by a certain die amount (d4, d6, d8, etc).

I always liked that mechanic.

In HM, there was a FIGHTER'S supplement (the name escapes me). I rolled up a starting character out of that boo,k, BY THE EXACT, OFFICIAL RULES of the game (I was in the HMPA at the time) and ended up with a really strong, blind, one-armed fighter who was afraid of blood.

Yeeeaaaahhh, that guy lasted for 3 sessions before the GM played mericful with me and killed him off, WITH an arrow shot to the eye no less...)
.........................................Omote

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Philotomy Jurament · Post by **Philotomy Jurament** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:05 pm

Omote wrote:
Eh, *shrugs* I wanted to like HACKMASTER much more then I did.

That was my reaction, too.

meepo · Post by **meepo** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:06 pm

Philotomy Jurament wrote:
That was my reaction, too.

Same here. I played in a game a few years back, and personally I thought the charts in character creation were more fun than the game itself.

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:09 pm

Hackmaster always gives me a headache from just looking at the books. I respect their adherence to the old school, but haven't worked up the gumption to give the rules a try.

That being said, I did just pick up the Hackjammer supplement for possible use with C&C. It's a lot more compact than the original boxed set, which is why I don't just grab the original Spelljammer boxed set.

gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:31 pm

Omote wrote:
Included with each attribute score is a percentile sub-attibute score. Once this sub-score gets to 100% the attribute is raised by 1 point. Every class impoves in this attribute sub-score every level by a certain die amount (d4, d6, d8, etc).

Hum. I distinctly remember this from long before Hackmaster came out. I used to do something like this in the early 80's

sieg · Post by **sieg** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:17 pm

It was basically the system given in Unearthed Arcana for the Cavalier to increase STR, DEX and CON; but they made it all 7 attributes in HM and any class/race could improve. Good in theory, a headache in practice (IMO).

I tried to like HM as well and was thrilled to hear they got the 1E engine for it. Then it came out. 300+ pgs of rules in each of the PHB and GMG books (both mandatory) as well as 9 Monster books...alphabetical so to have A-Z you had to buy them all.... at $20 a poplus $35 for the PHB and GMG...all softback.... Ugh.

The rules went into far too much detail for me to comfortably run. I know people who like it and that's fine...just not for me.

Also, K&C isn't really supporting the line as far as I can tell other than the odd fan-generated thing. They're working hard on their Western Game Aces & Eights.
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gideon_thorne · Post by **gideon_thorne** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:23 pm

sieg wrote:
It was basically the system given in Unearthed Arcana for the Cavalier to increase STR, DEX and CON; but they made it all 7 attributes in HM and any class/race could improve. Good in theory, a headache in practice (IMO).

Might be it? I had a DM once upon a time who used it for all the stats.
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lawful stoopid · Post by **lawful stoopid** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:04 pm

I actually like Hackmaster and play it pretty regularly with my brother-in-law and his friends. It is VERY rules heavy and DMing it can be a challenge, but if a rule seems to clunky or silly, well we just dont use it. It may not be Sactioned by Hackmaster or its fanboys, but we still have a good time. I mean really a person would have to be a Mentat to really know all the Hackmaster rules backward and foreward......now where is my saphoo juice again......

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:59 am

I haven't seen Hackmaster, but from what people have said here, I see a potential flaw. There are many types of humor and what type people like varies from person to person. In my opinion, the best way to write a system is simple and straight forward with mods that are tough enough to present a serious challenge to the party (i.e. killer mods). The GM can tone down the mod to their liking and insert humor where they see fit as the game is played. Inserting some humor in the writing doesn't hurt, but too much discourages people who don't appreciate that particular type of humor. Besides, humor usually translates best in person anyway.

Brian Miller

"A good gamer like a stand-up comedian appreciates all types of humor, but uses the type that best suits his or her audience, whereas a writer must write for everyone."
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cheeplives · Post by **cheeplives** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:16 pm

The almost official rumor about Hackmaster's use of humor is that it's part of the licensing agreement between Kenzerco and WoTC. Basically, so long as Hackmaster is a "parody" game, then it can continue to use the AD&D engine.

Whether or not that is true would need to be confirmed by someone at Kenzerco.

As a game, Hackmaster is indeed very rules heavy... but the rules at least have grounding in logic. Basically they take the old AD&D engine and standardize it... so all skills are percentile, like the skills for Thieves. Attributes all go off of the xx/%% scale, which is nice. The game is really kind of tooled for power-gaming and a lot of the parody falls into that realm, but you can run a HM game completely straight by just ignoring/disallowing some of the more grievous offenders (like the "Groin Stomp" skill).

Hackmaster is a good game. In many ways, it's another look at what a 3rd edition of D&D could have been if they had kept all of the artifacts of D&D and just tried to make things more standard. I'm not a huge fan of it... but I do see the good points in the game system (from a design standpoint).

Julian Grimm · Post by **Julian Grimm** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:33 pm

In a nutshell: Don't waste you money.
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JRR · Post by **JRR** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:15 pm

With everyone bashing Hackmaster, I felt obligated to say my piece.
Hackmaster is an EXCELLENT game if you ignore some of the more stupid stuff. I ignore about half the flaws, a few skills, and the entire honor system(which I love in theory, but detest in practice.) With a little tweaking, it's the best damn system out there. It's too bad, they had to put all the stupid crap in there. It turns off a lot of people who would enjoy an otherwise outstanding game.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:21 pm

The good news is Hackmaster stuff is easy to use with C&C, just like 1E stuff is. The humor is easy to throw out to. Far easier than throwing out rules, so no issues there. I don't own a lot of it, but I have found a lot of it useful, especially now that C&C is my system of choice.

Bowbe · Post by **Bowbe** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:39 am

Rumor has it the Kenzer guys are planning on statting my 3.5 high level Necromancer Games adventure "Tower of Jhedophar" for hackmaster and releasing it as a PDF. I believe the print version of the 3.5 text comes out in September, tho its at DTRPG and places like that already.

Dunno if they still plan to do this however. I imagine I will find out in about 2 weeks.

Rundown of that is: If it's statted for HM it would be even easier to convert for C&C.

Case

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:02 pm

That will be very sweet!