Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Gamers

All topics including role playing games, board games, etc., etc.
User avatar
redwullf
Ulthal
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:28 pm
Contact:

Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Gamers

Post by redwullf »

Time to share feelings about the Kickstarter / Pre-Order world we gamers have come to find ourselves in. Used to be that a game producer made a game and then made it available for sale. Those who didn't have big budgets for print runs would make them available via POD, like Lulu.

In the past couple of years, Kickstarter and Pre-Ordering have come to the be the way we get "on the wagon" for some of our gaming materials and, I have to say, I've come to despise it.

My first impressions with Kickstarter were very positive. I helped fund:
  • C&C Classic Monsters
  • C&C Players Handbook 5th Printing
  • Labyrinth Lord Referee Screen
  • GM's Real World Reference
  • Adventures Dark and Deep Players Manual
  • Adventures Dark and Deep Bestiary
  • (The ridiculously successful) Numenera
  • Myth & Magic Players Guide
  • Myth & Magic Game Master's Guide
  • Dungeons & Dragons, A Documentary
I have also pre-ordered, from Troll Lord Games, both:
  • Runelore
  • Codex of Aihrde
Of these Kickstarters and Pre-Orders, the following items are still outstanding:
  • Codex of Aihrde
  • Adventures Dark and Deep Bestiary
  • Myth & Magic Players Guide
  • Myth & Magic Game Master's Guide
  • Dungeons & Dragons, A Documentary
This, alone, doesn't seem like a problem, but check out the dates and dollar amounts (I'm not including Adventures Dark and Deep Bestiary because Joseph Block runs one hell of a tight ship, and this book will be in my hands months ahead of schedule):
  • Codex of Aihrde: May 19, 2012, $40.00
  • Myth & Magic Players Guide: May 7, 2012, $35.00
  • Myth & Magic Game Master's Guide: September 28, 2012, $75.00
  • Dungeons & Dragons, A Documentary: August 17, 2012, $15.00
I admit, I don't exactly have the family fortune tied up in these products. It's not so much the money that's troubling me, it's the delivery. Particularly at fault is Tom Ryan's Myth & Magic books, which is "Dwimmermount" Epic Level Failure in terms of a Kickstarter Campaign. Ryan has done a terrible job communicating progress, disappearing for months at a time, and seems to be simply lying (as far as anyone can tell) about the existence or delivery of the books. Attempts to contact him for weeks or months at a time have gone unanswered. This experience has caused me to stop all participation on Kickstarter, with the exception of Joseph Block's bestiary - and that exception only existed because of how AMAZING the Players Guide turned out, and how quickly it was accomplished. Numerous other Kickstarter opportunities have come and gone, and I've turned away from them for fear of another fleecing.

Also at fault (and it pains me to say this, because I consider myself a loyal supporter) is the Codex of Aihrde. This wouldn't be so bad if it hasn't been 16 months since I've pre-ordered the book, and if so many other products hadn't been launched and completed in the meantime. I'm watching Beneath The Dome, Giant's Rapture, The Free City of Eskadia, The Town of Kalas, (etc) come and go, but Aihrde seems to be floating around in the Astral Plane somewhere.

Finally, there was what I call the Delving Deeper Incident. I know John frequents these boards, so I'll apologize up front if this creates any bad feels or resentment. But, the truth is, despite all of the troubles John faced during this time (and I'm not unsympathetic to them!), this was just another really bad pre-order experience on top of the others.

These delays have thoroughly soured my desire to participate in any campaigns of support for future gaming products. There's something very unsatisfying about putting my money into people's hands (even if it's not a lot of money) and then watching them not treat me or my trust with respect and a sense of urgency.

After all, in virtually any other context where we give someone money in exchange for goods or services, we would find this type of treatment completely and utterly unacceptable.

Anyway, needed a venue to vent and share, and I chose this one.
Image
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities
for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own.” -- E. G. G.

--------------------------------------------------
Castles & Crusades Society Member

User avatar
Dracyian
Unkbartig
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:22 pm
Location: Eastern Wisconsin

Re: Kickstarters, Preorders, C&C and Otherwise

Post by Dracyian »

I have veiwed it in a different manner but I understand completely where you are coming from. I think that I am, at a supremely small portion at fault for the upsringing of kick starter and the likes. The reason being is that I have been participating in preorders for video games for years now, 7 at least. I get frustrated putting away 70 dollars and watching it sit there till the release date then it gets pushed back, makes you slightly angry. Like Steve most games offer you something extra for preordering. However it doesn't always make up for the pain of waiting through all this shit.

With that said, one thing that may help alleviate the way you and others feel, because I am sure you are not the only one who feels the way you do, is proposed release dates and then contigency plans for when those dates fall through. One thing that does make me a little moer comfortable is release dates for preorders. Another thing I feel kick starter should add on is reporting system that holds the project head accountable and create contracts for the backers protecting them from threats such as Tom Ryan's constant disappearance and scams. I'm talking legally binding, i'm taking your ass to court contracts. This I also feel will help keep the less prepared from starting up their kick starter projects.

I also feel that there can be ways to help keep invested parties happy when delays happen without a large out of pocket cost to the project starters. Such as published updates, like in the case of the Aihrde Codex putting proposed chapters and writing from the book so they can see what they are waiting for and feel a little more at ease with having given their money with the promise of a product or service and not direct trade for a product or service. This will also allow them to see the progress being made on the product while still providing them some of the product or service they invested in.

User avatar
Julian Grimm
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4514
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Location: SW Missouri
Contact:

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Julian Grimm »

I think I have only ever pre-ordered one book and I have yet to fund any type of Kickstarter. I just don't trust them and after seeing what has happened with many of them I would rather just buy the product if released.
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

User avatar
redwullf
Ulthal
Posts: 651
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:28 pm
Contact:

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by redwullf »

Those are some good suggestions, Dracyian. As a project manager by trade, it seems to me that every kickstarter and every pre-order is a project, and some sort of effort should be put into managing them. I think what we're seeing are creative-types (fellow gamers, authors, etc.) who produce lovely content, but know bupkis about running a project, or possibly even a business.

Either way, I'll buy completed products from now on, I think. There are definitely some amazing awards put forth by various Kickstarters, and I really feel like I'm losing out on bonus material by not participating in them. But, then I remember that I still don't have products in hand from some other Kickstarters that I backed many, many moons ago and I'm reminded of my reason for abstaining.
Image
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs. He presents opportunities
for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own.” -- E. G. G.

--------------------------------------------------
Castles & Crusades Society Member

User avatar
Dracyian
Unkbartig
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:22 pm
Location: Eastern Wisconsin

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Dracyian »

I have, very fortunately *knocks on all the wood* yet to be scammed by a kick starter, however seeing as I have backed two, the free city of Eskadia, and the Haunted Highlands and I will continue to preorder video games, but thats a seperate idea because they are actual business with history of successful follow up on release dates. I will probably continue to back the occasional Kickstarter and participate in a preorder here and there, but I only do it for when its a product I really want and the cool add ons can't be beat.

If the trolls ever get bigger, it would be nice to see Steve get a project manager on board for TLG who runs this type of event

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Treebore »

I have been much more fortunate with my KS, they are all already in my hand, or they have been giving me very good updates (OGRE). As for the Trolls, I have always learned to tack on a year or three to any project they say they are doing (Book of Familiars). Then they are rarely so late as to be bugged by it.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Dracyian
Unkbartig
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:22 pm
Location: Eastern Wisconsin

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Dracyian »

With all of this being said and steve seeing how long it is taking and the fact that it is to some of us disheartening will help with future pre orders, and he may adopt some of the ideas that come from this topic/discussion

With all that being said, I'm wondering, this is just a thought that jumped into my head, if part of the delay is the need to expand and make better instead of publish then add on works later. I know when I write up something I always have to stop myself from going back to expand, add on, rework or change until its perfect, and seeing as nothing is ever perfect we all know this would never stop so I have to draw the line somewhere, I'm wondering if Steve is suffering from not drawing the line soon enough, especially after reading that the first four pages quadrupled in size

User avatar
kreider204
Unkbartig
Posts: 830
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:01 pm
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by kreider204 »

I rarely engage in Kickstarters. I don't need my books that fast - I have a backlog of things to read, so I'm willing to wait. I will generally only throw a few bucks at a book KS if I can get a cheap copy of the PDF - I like having both phyiscal books and PDFs, but hate paying anything like full price for both, so a cheap PDF is always welcome, and it gives me a preview of the book before I do get around to buying the physical copy. I've also thrown a few bucks into a KS or two that I thought were worthy products by reliable companies, and even then only because I was in no hurry to get the product. To date, I probably haven't participated in more than a half dozen KSs, and don't have any plans for any more any time soon.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Treebore »

I am happy to say its been over 3 months since I was last tempted by a KS. The only one I know of that I will probably back when it starts is the next Reaper mini's KS. As for pre orders, I participate in every one TLG does, and have been darn glad of it. Like the current Bluffside, at least I already have a PDF (got a "rough to help give feed back months ago), and now I just have to wait for Tim to figure out what is wrong with their PDF delivery system they chose. I don't know why they don't just put it up on Drivethru and send us codes. Seems to work great for other RPG companies. Anyways, its a very cool, unique, city based product.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
kreider204
Unkbartig
Posts: 830
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2011 9:01 pm
Location: NE Wisconsin

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by kreider204 »

Treebore wrote:I don't know why they don't just put it up on Drivethru and send us codes. Seems to work great for other RPG companies. Anyways, its a very cool, unique, city based product.
+1000. Makes it easier to deliver updated PDFs as well.

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Omote »

I have been surprisingly happy with my delayed KS rewards. The last 2 TLG KS that I backed were severely delayed, and it seems that we got more out of the Kickstarter than was promised. I'm OK with that. I backed a Palladium Books Kickstarter about 15 months ago that has still yet to be delivered. What is cool is that that book went from being 150 so pages up to 256 at no additional cost because of the delay in the Kickstarter. It seems that the delayed Kickstarter projects that I have been involved with have actually come out better than the ones on time. Crazy. Perhaps I just have been lucky.

I recently backed an Indigogo project where the author came out and said that the delivery date is January 2019! He says that due to the problems with Kickstarters and people not making their promised dates, he will not be in that situation. He understansd that he could lose a significant portion of his pre-buy backers, but he will not break his promise. Crazier.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
Dracyian
Unkbartig
Posts: 877
Joined: Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:22 pm
Location: Eastern Wisconsin

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Dracyian »

Omote wrote:I have been surprisingly happy with my delayed KS rewards. The last 2 TLG KS that I backed were severely delayed, and it seems that we got more out of the Kickstarter than was promised. I'm OK with that. I backed a Palladium Books Kickstarter about 15 months ago that has still yet to be delivered. What is cool is that that book went from being 150 so pages up to 256 at no additional cost because of the delay in the Kickstarter. It seems that the delayed Kickstarter projects that I have been involved with have actually come out better than the ones on time. Crazy. Perhaps I just have been lucky.
I might have lucked out like this, I remember preordering on eof the higher city of eskadia to get the map pack and was sent the large maps too. I also had an issue with my preorder that was all my fault and the trolls still resolved it for me, which is one of the reasons I will continue to support to the Trolls
Omote wrote:I recently backed an Indigogo project where the author came out and said that the delivery date is January 2019! He says that due to the problems with Kickstarters and people not making their promised dates, he will not be in that situation. He understansd that he could lose a significant portion of his pre-buy backers, but he will not break his promise. Crazier.

~O
Just don't get hit by a car

CKDad
Master of the Kobold Raiders
Posts: 1205
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Maryland

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by CKDad »

I've backed many game-related kickstarters, and almost all have seen some sort of delays. Some of these have been victims of their own success (see OGRE, which became such a massive game SJG & partners are having to develop entirely new packaging). Others have run into problems with members of the team bailing out before finishing (like the Fang & Talon guys losing their original sound editor). And a few others have run into other production-related delays (printers slow to send proofs, etc.)

But the biggest single cause of delay has turned out to be along the lines of "I've got this great idea, fund it and I'll make the product (but I haven't written it yet)". Or perhaps "not finished it yet" is more accurate. This is what the Codex (and Rune Lore before it) suffered from.

The good news is that I really believe that Steve & co. got the message that taking pre-orders for products still in embryonic stages of development is a Bad Thing, especially if it's a product for which Steve is the primary author, since he's got other things that command his attention. If you look at all the products they've pushed out the door in the last year or so, with the exception of Rune Lore they all seem to have been both a) written by someone other than Steve, and b) substantially complete by the time the Kickstarter or pre-order process began.

That said, I did cancel my pre-order for the Codex. I'll certainly buy it when it's released, but chose not to reward the past methodology.

One thing that has really set apart the companies that have had delays but are forgiven versus the ones the audience is less forgiving towards: communications. Steve Jackson, Mark Miller, Harebrained Schemes and others have been really good about keeping their backers informed along the way (and offering refunds where possible). The people that have the money, run into delays but don't communicate are the ones most reviled, even when those delays are understandable.
"I don't wanna be remembered as the guy who died because he underestimated the threat posed by a monkey."

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Omote »

Dracyian wrote: Just don't get hit by a car
Ha! I LOL'd so much on that people were looking at me funny(er). Dracy, you are crackers! :lol:

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
Julian Grimm
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4514
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Location: SW Missouri
Contact:

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Julian Grimm »

I would be more apt to look at Kickstarters or per-orders if I knew the product in question was complete and ready for publication or production. I have also found the rewards associated with funding levels on Kickstarters are not interesting enough for me to fund them. As well, when you look at fiascoes like Dwimmermount it makes it hard to trust those that have the KS up.

Yes, I know it is different with TLG or any other established company are different but it would be my luck that I would fund the one that crashes. While the system is nice I am still wary of the idea and look at the process as less of an investment and more of a glorified pre-order with no guarantee of a product.
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

User avatar
Traveller
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2021
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Traveller »

CKDad wrote:Steve Jackson, Mark Miller, Harebrained Schemes and others have been really good about keeping their backers informed along the way (and offering refunds where possible).
Just to be pedantic, it's Marc, not Mark.

I generally don't bother with Kickstarters. I simply don't have the patience to throw money I may never see again at something that may or may not ever appear. You want me to buy it? Have a finished product either on the shelves, available through DrivethruRPG, or both. At least then I know that my money simply didn't disappear into the black hole that is a successfully funded project perpetually stuck in development.

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Treebore »

I must say my most recent KS is shaping up to look pretty dang sweet!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/nog ... 837570e338


Check out the dice, the box art, etc...!
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Relaxo
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3350
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Relaxo »

redwullf wrote:I think what we're seeing are creative-types (fellow gamers, authors, etc.) who produce lovely content, but know bupkis about running a project, or possibly even a business.
This.

That said, I'm digging all the things I've backed, even the delayed ones. and not to rehash it or poopoo anyone's legit concerns over delays, but John Adams has had a s#!tty two or three years in a row. nuff said. He's trying to make it right... maybe should have been sooner for some people, but John is a great guy and yaddda yadda I know you want your stuff.

There's no simple answer.

But it is annoying, fer sure. The rocket dice were supposed to be done by now, but the chinese manufacturer is dicking the project owner around (I'm paraphrasing) and it just makes (is it game salute?) look bad, but it's not their fault. (or is it? should they have chosen a better manufacturer?... we could go in circles)

((and we do, LOL))

So I dunno.
I'm trying to cut back on KS stuff, but a lot of it looks really really cool, even if you mentally add a year to the expected delivery date as a coping mechanism.

PS I want to be clear that I'm not saying anyone is a jerk for being frustrated with BHP KS projects. and that I'm saying John is not a jerk (I think that was clear). It's just a crap sandwich for everyone.
Bill D.
Author: Yarr! Rules-Light Pirate RPG
BD Games - www.playBDgames.com
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/browse.ph ... rs_id=5781

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Treebore »

Yeah, not meeting dead lines gets a lot of heat REAL fast! I've been really lucky on that front. Everyone who ran "late" was very good at communicating, and some, like SJG, gave many pictures of the issues they ran into with OGRE and even gave a bit of a photo diary of their trip to China to visit the manufacturer. So I haven't felt a need to get upset even with those that ran late, or are running late, they have kept me "in the loop".
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Julian Grimm
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4514
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Location: SW Missouri
Contact:

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Julian Grimm »

Shouldn't we be used to deadlines not being met; especially around here. :lol:
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Treebore »

Julian Grimm wrote:Shouldn't we be used to deadlines not being met; especially around here. :lol:
Definitely! I always add a year to whatever the Trolls say!
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Sir Ironside
Lore Drake
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:00 am

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Sir Ironside »

CKDad wrote:That said, I did cancel my pre-order for the Codex. I'll certainly buy it when it's released, but chose not to reward the past methodology.
I've only KSed TLG and BHP stuff and it has only been Airdhe, HH, X-Plorers boxed set and Delving Deeper.

I was tempted to cancel my Airdhe as part of the level was being able to add character/place/thing (I'm not even clear if this is still going to happen.) which, to be honest, I'm not all that interested in, but I keep reminding myself that there are some sweet maps coming my way that you can only get through the KS. Plus as it gets bigger (2 hardback books now) it is simply stupid to quit on it at the level I pledged.

I never got the X-Plorer's boxed set but John made up for it other ways, which turned out better for me.

Somewhat knowing John (internet only) it is a more friendly "business" relationship and just knowing makes this very long wait OK with me. I doubt I'd extend the same patience to other business'.

Now, I'm doubtful that I'll ever contribute to any KS. I've just lost interest in the whole idea and will just wait for the finished product.
"Paranoia is just another word for ignorance." - Hunter S. Thompson

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Arduin »

In today's RPG market, where most sales are PDF, I see no need for a Kickstarter type mechanism to produce a game book. The book can be created as a PDF, sold, and when enough $ comes in from that, rolled back into a print run. Or, POD for those that want it.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:In today's RPG market, where most sales are PDF, I see no need for a Kickstarter type mechanism to produce a game book. The book can be created as a PDF, sold, and when enough $ comes in from that, rolled back into a print run. Or, POD for those that want it.
Only way they will get me to check out a PDF first is if they give it to me. Most likely I'll just DL it and it will stay unread, forgotten, on my HD for years. A book I'll actually get around to reading, because I'll see it, and be reminded I have it, far more frequently.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote:In today's RPG market, where most sales are PDF, I see no need for a Kickstarter type mechanism to produce a game book. The book can be created as a PDF, sold, and when enough $ comes in from that, rolled back into a print run. Or, POD for those that want it.
Only way they will get me to check out a PDF first is if they give it to me. Most likely I'll just DL it and it will stay unread, forgotten, on my HD for years. A book I'll actually get around to reading, because I'll see it, and be reminded I have it, far more frequently.
I'm talking about market realities, not someones personal preference.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Julian Grimm
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4514
Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 7:00 am
Location: SW Missouri
Contact:

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Julian Grimm »

As far as that goes; the reality of it for me is that if it is not in print form then the producer will not get any money from me. I like pdf for character sheets, small adventures, back-up maps and similar things but not as a full on product for table use.
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Arduin »

Julian Grimm wrote:As far as that goes; the reality of it for me is that if it is not in print form then the producer will not get any money from me.
Yep, there are a few still around who prefer paper format. There always will be a need to produce some. Fortunately for the RPG companies that is a shrinking minority. I DO like printed maps when they represent a large area like a country or continent.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

Treebore
Mogrl
Posts: 20660
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Arizona and St Louis

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Treebore »

Arduin wrote:
Treebore wrote:
Arduin wrote:In today's RPG market, where most sales are PDF, I see no need for a Kickstarter type mechanism to produce a game book. The book can be created as a PDF, sold, and when enough $ comes in from that, rolled back into a print run. Or, POD for those that want it.
Only way they will get me to check out a PDF first is if they give it to me. Most likely I'll just DL it and it will stay unread, forgotten, on my HD for years. A book I'll actually get around to reading, because I'll see it, and be reminded I have it, far more frequently.
I'm talking about market realities, not someones personal preference.
The personal preferences are the "market realities". You, by yourself, do not define "market realities". If your listened to, the "market reality" will be an immediate loss of possibly 50% of potential customers. not a great way to start off a business. Then again, I don't really know any better than you do. Have there been market studies publicly released looking into how much of the market prefers PDF to Print? I just know the perception still is that print sells waaaaay more than PDF. So what is the facts?
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

User avatar
Arduin
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 4045
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Granite quarry

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Arduin »

Treebore wrote:
The personal preferences are the "market realities".
Of course. It's just the size of that market is very small, relatively.
Old age and treachery will overcome youth and skill

House Rules

User avatar
Sir Ironside
Lore Drake
Posts: 1595
Joined: Sat May 02, 2009 7:00 am

Re: Kickstarters and Preorders, The Bane of Present-Day Game

Post by Sir Ironside »

The only thing I know for sure is that the pdf market is very healthy. The percentages of sales from book to pdf, I'd imagine, differ greatly from one company to another. There doesn't seem to be a "perfect" stabilized market that has it all figured out. What can be said is most companies offer both but even then noone knows what kind of standardized pricing should take place.

You have companies like SJG, TLG, BTRC etc. that price pdf's as a separate entity from books which reflects with pdf's being more expensive. You have other companies that are still not valuing pdf's the same as books and sell them at a very low price. Then you have companies that offer bundles (pdf/book) that also has pricing all over the place.

I know of one company (There is probably more) that is pdf first. BTRC that sells the EABA system is all about the pdf and putting it in book form is kind of an after-thought and not high on their priority list.

Burning Wheel is the only company, that I can think of, that has resisted going the pdf route, in any form. (Doesn't include things character sheets etc.)

I get the feeling that if POD books didn't exist Precise Intermedia Games would also just be a pdf company.

I guess what I am saying is with all these self-publishing companies it is easier for all sizes of game companies to be able to offer both print and pdf without a lot of upfront costs. Which continually muddies the water and makes it difficult for the industry to start standardizing how much a pdf should cost in comparison to a book.

I'm pretty confident in saying that I don't think that pdf will totally displace books in the rpg world, no more than it has done with novels.
"Paranoia is just another word for ignorance." - Hunter S. Thompson

Post Reply