TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Treebore »

Plus the Monk, and they improved, in my opinion, the Grappling rules too.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by kreider204 »

trashheap wrote:In order of most desired to least:
Something in the vein of Oriental Adventures for C&C
Ooo, yes. I'd also love to see a Middle Eastern setting.

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Omote »

As I see it, the rules are completely playible with each printing of the rules. I actually encourage TLG, if they ever read this, to keep improving the C&C game with tiny additons or slightly updated rules in each successive printing. I play with a few players who REFUSE to buy the PHB again (they bought the 3rd and 4th printings). Even though I use the 5th printing rules, they use older books, and there is never really a problem. In fact, the one gal who is playing still plays by the older EV rules and the older spellbook rules, and refuses to change. I agreed that it mattered little to the game, particularly if she just sticks with those rules. As it seems, she has, and there have been zero problems in doing so.

I'd really love to see that full color M&T, and really love to see the magic item creation rules contained within to be clarified, codified, and made more specific. That would be awesome.

Beyond that, I want to see a cleaned up CKG, and "epic level" rules that cover levels 25-36. I'm not sure even how that would be possible, but I think it would be worthy. I'd really like to see TLG's take on super-level characters.

Next up, Harvesters deserves a cleaned up edition. Harvesters is a worthy tome, but it needed more editorial love, and more pages on animals, spells, and well, everything. Harvesters 2nd edition wouldn't need to be any longer than the core C&C PHB, but it would be nice to see, even if it was essentiually a clone of the regular C&C rules.

Finally, I want to see Winter Runes and the new Rune Caster class. But I want that class to be perfect. TLG has worked on that tome a very long time, and by now it should be a deep, unque class, with lots of new spells/runes that is well balanced against the rest of C&C. Time to deliver TLG.

And if TLG is going to do the right thing with Winter Runes, making a deep and unique class with specialized spells/runes, it needs to do the same with the new Codex of Aihrde. The new Codex has to be nearly perfect, and the definative source for all knowledge Aihrde. I want to throw away the rest of my Aihrde stuff, and focus only on the new Codex without having to hear endless complaints on how the new Codex doesn't make sense with this or that. Make it definitive, make it concise. Do this right this time, and you'll never have to again.

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Julian Grimm »

Omote wrote:As I see it, the rules are completely playible with each printing of the rules. I actually encourage TLG, if they ever read this, to keep improving the C&C game with tiny additons or slightly updated rules in each successive printing. I play with a few players who REFUSE to buy the PHB again (they bought the 3rd and 4th printings). Even though I use the 5th printing rules, they use older books, and there is never really a problem. In fact, the one gal who is playing still plays by the older EV rules and the older spellbook rules, and refuses to change. I agreed that it mattered little to the game, particularly if she just sticks with those rules. As it seems, she has, and there have been zero problems in doing so.
Here's the thing. I remember when C&C was new that TLG promised no new editions or revisions to the game. As soon as the second print of the PHB came out they had made changes to the rules. By the time of the Fourth Crusade the changes became rather significant and would constitute a revision of the rules. In other words, while they never used the word outright, TLG was revising the rules print after print.

Now, that doesn't bother me. I figured that TLG would have to make some changes to fix slight errors in the rules as more players joined the game and as they appeared. No problem. What does bother me is that TLG, unlike most companies who release documents to note changes between printings, will not make those changes available to those who bought previous printings and forces fans to buy new copies of the PHB every time something is changed. That is something I wish TLG would change as not all of us can afford to plop down $30 every time TLG revises the rules.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by DMMike »

Victorious (big surprise)...I've already got 2 modules in the works for it but not much point when the game isn't out yet. ;)

Halls of Adventure too, and not just because I'm due a check. Really! :lol:

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Thoom »

What I'd like for 2013 is what I ordered a year ago, namely Rune Lore.

Next on the list is the new Codex. I haven't ordered this one though, I'm waiting for it to come out.

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Treebore »

Thoom wrote:What I'd like for 2013 is what I ordered a year ago, namely Rune Lore.

Next on the list is the new Codex. I haven't ordered this one though, I'm waiting for it to come out.
Yeah. I've found take the time estimates the Trolls give us and multiply them by 5, and they actually put them out pretty close to on time. Sometimes even early. You have to multiply by 5 first. It also looks like I am going to have to send my receipt in, because they haven't been sending me the e-mail updates I've seen mentioned.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Andred of Albans »

Id love to see the demons/angels book that was rumored a while back

Or maybe I'd write up the demons & angels as they appear in western demonologies & angelogies for Domesday Book :lol:
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Ancalagon »

Rune Lore
Codex Celtarum
Codex Germania
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Peter »

Does he still come here? I haven't seen him post for awhile.
Yep, I'm still here. Been busy working with Hal on some projects.

At some point I'm going to redo the Companion from scratch. Some things I got sloppy with converting. A good chunk of the 3e spells really don't need to exist as they do have equivalents that I didn't catch before. Some of the rules have been covered in newer TLG products. Plus some miscellaneous other things. I plan to move stuff like classes, spells, monsters, etc. out into there own documents, and leave the Companion for miscellaneous rules. No ETA on this tho, as we got to get some products out before I can spend some time on it again.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by CKDad »

I'd like to see the items I per-ordered last year (Rune Lore and the Codex of Aihrde) to actually see the light of day.

I'd also like to see some sort of resolution for Crusader subscribers. Since it seems pretty clear after three years that regular publication schedule isn't possible, then perhaps those of us with subscriptions could receive store credit.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by redwullf »

CKDad wrote:I'd like to see the items I per-ordered last year (Rune Lore and the Codex of Aihrde) to actually see the light of day.
+1

I'd like to see those exact same two items.

I don't want to go off on a rant or anything, but...I'm about to go off on a rant...

I've recently become very disenchanted with some of the OSR publishers. I "pre-ordered" Delving Deeper in November of 2011 (not last year, 2012, but 2011!) and after waiting over a year I finally receive word that they're shipping. That was 3 weeks ago...I still have yet to see it.

I "pre-ordered" Rune Lore and Codex of Aihrde who-knows-how-long-ago and at this point there doesn't even seem to be any strong indication they're being worked on. Somewhere *after* pre-ordering them, other projets have come and gone, it seems. All I hear about now is Codex of Celtarum. Posts suggested this was just a couple of weeks away from being "done" but then I receive email this morning indicating that the Kickstarter for this book has started. Umm...what?

I funded both the Myth & Magic Player's Guide and Game Master's Guide and about a month ago the author has seemed to have completely fallen off the face of the Earth. There are people clamoring on the Kick Starter pages and the New Haven Games forums for *some* sort of an update, but as far as anyone can tell Tom has completely vanished (apparently, with our money).

I've funded several Troll Lord Kickstarters and have been very satisfied with the products (5th printing PHB, Classic Monsters), and the waits for those haven't been TOO horrible. My recent experiences, however, have caused me to officially denounce any future OSR Kick Starter projects or pre-orders. Waiting for a year or more to get your hands on something that you've paid for is just, well, unacceptable - at least when there is no indication ahead of time that your wait is going to BE that long. The constant, empty assurances that "it's almost done" and "we're ready to release this book" are what have pushed me over the edge.

At this point, I've all but written off the money I've given to New Haven Games. I have a feeling I'll never see those books. I'm still hopeful that my Delving Deeper set has actually been shipped - or will be soon. I'm sure John at Brave Halfling will do everything he can to fullfill all the orders. As far as Codex and Rune are concerned...well, only the Trolls can give us those updates, and they seem to be far and few between and filled with promises that fade in each long communication gap. I understand no one wants to besmirch the good name of our most beloved OSR publishers but I believe that, as paying customers, we shouldn't be afraid to gripe when griping is justified. No matter how you cut it, and how much you want to stay loyally quiet, there comes a point where the long development delays coupled with even longer gaps in status updates (which are then filled with promises that never see the light of day) become simply unacceptable.

Give us regular updates on these books. Weekly is acceptable. What chapter did you just finish writing? Where are they in the layout process, or proof process, or printing process, or shipping process? Give us *real* deadlines, and if you can't, tell us WHY you can't provide that information (what's stopping you). If you miss deadlines, tell us immediately what's going on and what the new deadline is. We'll give you a pass or two as long as you're being honest with us. We have GIVEN you our money...the least you can do is be punctual and transparent with us about the products we paid for. Nothing about these requests is unreasonable...
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Omote »

I'm not permitted to say much, but I happen to be privy to very limited info on the RUNE LORE book. I want to let everybody know that the RUNE LORE book is still being worked on. Its been a long time for sure, but there were some mechanical issues with the rules in that book that just weren't jiving right. The stuff in this upcoming book had to go through a royal boat-load of playtesting, and when you see the results, you'll know why.

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Troll Lord »

Hey folks,

I should really chime in here more often, but same old excuses.

Let me address some issues right quick.

First and easiest. Crusader. ANYONE who wants store credit for their sub, email Todd at orders @ trolllord.com. It is my intent to get that magazine back on its feet and we have about completed Crusader 26, but to any ability to keep it rolling I cannot attest. So please, drop us a line at orders @ trolllord.com and we'll get you hooked up.

Kickstarter Codex Celtarum project. This project was completed because I am not writing it. The Codex of Aihrde and Rune Lore on on my balance sheet and no one else's. As such it becomes impossible for me to work on them like I would like too when anything and everything hits in my schedule. I'm not going to make any excuses but to say that when we launched my schedule had opened up considerably, great progress was made and then it closed quite suddenly.

On to where we are at on Rune Lore. Rune Lore consists of three basic parts. Setting. Adventure. Class. Here is the up to minute update on each.

Setting: The setting material is complete and you should have received a PDF in the email last Friday (if you did not please email us at runelore@trolllord.com). Backer contributions will be included in the next release (next Friday methinks).

Adventure: The adventure were rewritten and 12 added to the original manuscript. These range from 2-10 pages. All of these are at the editor, Alicia Stanley and she turned over the first one last night. I will look over it and it will go on to layout today. We will begin releasing these pdfs soon...if you all want them one at at time we can do that. They are built, very loosely, in a chronological order.

Class: This has been the real bug in the carpet. In the original writing I tried to simply convert the prestige class into a class for C&C. It didn't work for a variety of reason. The more I tried to make it work the worse it became. It seemed nothing more than a splat book class which is what i want to avoid. I tossed that and made a second. It was okay, but off key somehow. I sent it to playtesting and it came back with "this is okay, but why do I care?" which is the last response you want :lol: So to the draft again. I rewrote and thought I had it, Mac and Davis got involved, and we made a really unique class. But it didn't hold up to the runes as the class and runes couldn't mesh, either the class was too powerful (Chris at our table ran it and he is GREAT at assuming powers that aren't in an item/class/ability so he had great fun with all manner of runes and destroyed a night's play) or it ran just like a wizard.

In short I couldn't find the rune mark's voice. Well after much pondering and a long conversation with Todd we came upon it and found what it is. Looking not to adventuring archetypes but to literary ones I found the ghost of Feanor, Sauron, Saruman and the like and it fell into place quite readily. The class has now gone through several rounds of testing and has found its voice. Today (the 10th) I'll be fine tuning and sending it back through. Thirty eight of the runes are written but need cleaned up. In short the class, the sticking point of this book has been the hardest and we just went over that hump.

So it should not be long now. And I'm hoping to give regular updates and PDF release all the way up to the print release (hopefully in about four weeks, though I'm reluctant to commit as crap always hits the fan when I do that).

If you want a refund, please email Todd at orders @ trolllord.com and we'll hook you up with no hard feelings. If you can hang in a little longer, I think it will be worth the wait. If you want to hit a troll direct it at Davis as he has no idea what is going on with release and it would just be funny to see some hit him :shock:

Thanks all for the patience!
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by mgtremaine »

[rant] You know what I'd like to see, take the d#$m flash app off the homepage. Seriously it takes forever to load. I'm sure there is an html5 solution for that. [/rant]

:) Apologies if that should be complaints.


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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Julian Grimm »

redwullf wrote:
CKDad wrote:I'd like to see the items I per-ordered last year (Rune Lore and the Codex of Aihrde) to actually see the light of day.
+1

I'd like to see those exact same two items.

I don't want to go off on a rant or anything, but...I'm about to go off on a rant...

<snip>

There is a reason I don't do pre-orders or Kickstarters and you nailed most of them. The only thing I have to add is that I am still pretty skeptical on deadlines and release dates after the whole CKG fiasco.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Omote »

That fiasco turned out a pretty damn great book IMO. I can't imagine what the fiasco would be like if the CKG sucked donkey nails. ;)

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Julian Grimm »

It may be a great book but I still have a bitter taste in my mouth from the whole thing. So much so, I have still refused to buy it. Whether that changes remains to be seen.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Treebore »

Julian Grimm wrote:It may be a great book but I still have a bitter taste in my mouth from the whole thing. So much so, I have still refused to buy it. Whether that changes remains to be seen.
I bought it, but I haven't really used it. My house rules cover almost everything the CKG would have, if it had come out before I came up with my own fixes.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by redwullf »

Julian Grimm wrote:It may be a great book but I still have a bitter taste in my mouth from the whole thing. So much so, I have still refused to buy it. Whether that changes remains to be seen.
I really like the CKG, and I "came onboard" just at the tail end of that whole thing, so I didn't experience it. My kickstarter experiences were good until this Myth & Magic (New Haven Games) debacle, now I have that bitter taste too.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

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Well all my Kickstarter contributions have tested my zen. Delving Deeper and Codex of Airdhe.

To be honest I don't mind the delay's because even if I didn't help it still would've come out at the same time. This way I get some of the goodies. Now, if it wasn't Brave Hafling or TLG I'd be much more anxious. Realistically I won't Kickstart anything that I am not confident about, know little about and doesn't have much of a online presence, even then it is doubtful.

I would've loved to Kickstart the OGRE game, but it was beyond anything I'd like to commit financially and, it was Steve Jackson Games. (Which is too bad as I hear grumblings about doing a Car Wars game built on the same model.)
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Andred of Albans »

I have been lurking on this topic and wanted to put my 2cp in. Most OSR publishers are small press outfits which means they run on very tight margins. But even established companies like Steve Jackson Games or Far Future Enterprises or Reaper Miniatures have all missed deadlines on their kickstarter projects.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Sir Ironside »

Andred of Albans wrote:I have been lurking on this topic and wanted to put my 2cp in. Most OSR publishers are small press outfits which means they run on very tight margins. But even established companies like Steve Jackson Games or Far Future Enterprises or Reaper Miniatures have all missed deadlines on their kickstarter projects.
The difference is, I'm comfortable knowing I'll get my money back. There is nothing on Kickstarter that makes the Kickstartee give any money accrued back.

It has happened and the only thing that gets done is that company gets a bad name. I bet Guardians of Order wished they had Kickstarter back in the day.

There is a whole thread about this at RPG.net.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Andred of Albans »

Sir Ironside wrote:The difference is, I'm comfortable knowing I'll get my money back. There is nothing on Kickstarter that makes the Kickstartee give any money accrued back.
It has happened and the only thing that gets done is that company gets a bad name. I bet Guardians of Order wished they had Kickstarter back in the day.
Not exactly, you pay for Kickstarter with a credit card - you can challenge the charge if the product is not delivered and that results in a chargeback to the merchant. You can also file complaints with your state consumer protections agency and the FCC. Kickstarter bids are taken over the Internet which is a Federal domain - make enough noise and believe me, you can get companies to make some generous offers!

I got taken by a firm in Pakistan and contacting my credit card company, the FCC, the online store serving company and generally making a pain out of myself I got the money back, the digital product I ordered, a credit slip from the online store and some very meek apologies. You just have to know HOW to pitch the financial fit.

With that said, I don't think TLG is acting in bad faith. I participated in their Classic Monsters effort and if anything, the Trolls sent me a better deal than I originally bargained for - and having a complete set of signed books is rather nifty! I am currently in for a copy of Codex Celtarum (and would love to see the Demons/Angels book at some point, too!). Even with established companies, there is not guarantee. TSR no longer exists, Steve Jackson Games nearly went bust several times - once after the Secret Service raid, then again after the company CFO made off with nearly 2 years revenue, GDW is gone and Imperium Games (predecessor to Far Future Enterprises) declared bankruptcy - again, in each of those cases the principals of those companies made good on their commitments but it took time.

I can't say I blame you for waiting to buy a book until it is out and available on the retail market. Sponsoring a project via Kickstarter is essentially micro venture capitalism and does include some risk.

My attitude is I could afford for those kickstarter projects I backed to turn into vaporware - I hope the don't - but I am still awaiting my copy of Ogre from Steve Jackson (currently scheduled for April, 5 months late) and my copy of Traveller 5 (currently scheduled for February - 3 months late), and my vampire box from Reaper (still allegedly on time for March) But if all these were to vanish, i would be out about $340 - not fun, but not ruinous either. I would still have the options outlined above to recoup some or all of that but let's say I failed to do so - $340 represents one day's wages which I could afford to risk.
Sir Ironside wrote:There is a whole thread about this at RPG.net.
I'll have to check it out.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by CKDad »

I didn't, and don't, mean to imply that TLG was, or is, acting in bad faith. I truly believe that Steve had no idea that Rune Lore would turn into the tarpit that it eventually became, delaying not only it's own release but the development and release of many other products in the pipeline. I also believe that Steve & crew sincerely thought they'd be able to keep the Crusader running at a reduced schedule, after the attempt at publishing monthly proved to be unworkable.

And I get, better than many, the realities of the business of game publishing, having been associated with several over the years. It's got all the usual headaches of any small business and a boatload all its own.

But I do believe it's bad form to take pre-orders for products which are still early in the development cycle (like the Codex of Airhde), while other things for which customers have paid remain unfinished (Rune Lore) or in abeyance (Crusader). And launching another Kickstarter - albeit for a largely finished project - is, for me, a remarkably tone-deaf act that ignores the growing backlash in the gaming community towards products which aren't being delivered.

I still like C&C. I will continue to play and support the game; heck, I'm running a C&C tournament at GaryCon. I'll still buy TLG's products, which I expect will continue to be of overall high quality.

But I'm done with pre-orders.
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Julian Grimm »

As far as Kickstarters go I think the worst example has been Dwimmermount(*). From the various arguments on that front one good idea is that Kickstarters should not begin until the manuscript is finished and is ready to go for final edits and/or printing. I have to agree with this as there have been more than a few that have ended up with products that are over a year behind deadline.

On the whole I can partially excuse some publishers due to them being just beginning or straight up amateurs. However, when you are an established business there can be little excuse for such delays. I would suggest that for 2013 the model for Kickstarters be changed thus:


*Kickstarters do not begin until a final manuscript is in the final edit/layout/printing stage.

*Deadlines be given as estimates with a +/- 2 month margin of error.

*Total transparency so that the 'investors' know where the project stands.

*Options for refunds/store credit if a project is going to be delayed more than 4 months.

I think this would head off most of the problems we have seen.


(*) This link is to the nicer of the comments. If you dig deep you see some nastier comments especially on the publishers website. For civility I have avoided linking to the more heated conversations.
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

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Julian Grimm
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Re: TLG 2013: What Would You Like To See?

Post by Julian Grimm »

Treebore wrote:
I bought it, but I haven't really used it. My house rules cover almost everything the CKG would have, if it had come out before I came up with my own fixes.

This is what I am afraid of happening. After looking at the PDF sample I found that there is much of the content that I have already house-ruled or fixed. 'Gaps' in the system were handled by consulting AD&D (1e and 2e) or the SRD, the SIEGE Engine was changed in my home game and, levels beyond those in the PH was handled with another consult of AD&D. The rest seems like it would be good if you were brand new to the game or did not have a library of AD&D to draw from.

So I have to ask myself if this really will add anything to my game?
Lord Skystorm

Grand Knight Commander KoTC, Member C&CS

Donner Party Meats: We're here to serve YOU!

AD&D per se is as dead a system as Latin is a language, while the C&C game has much the same spirit and nearly the same mechanics. --Gary Gygax 8/16/06

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