He slammed C&C.

[slimykuotoan]

I posted on a thread on Facebook, suggesting that a person try C&C, after this person asked for opinions on rpgs.

This other guy responded to my comment with:

"I'll have to vote this one down. Castles & Crusades is a terrible, terrible example to set for kids, let alone on which to start their RPG experience."

Isn't that an odd thing to say?

[slimykuotoan]

And the guy's a game designer to boot.

[Go0gleplex]

Probably someone who is prone to over-detailed mechanics and rules restricted play-imagination if he is a game designer. If he has not done more than read through C&C I'd add something a little more derogatory in there as well but this is a family channel.

Honestly, as a game designer myself and someone who has been playing RPGs for over 40 years I would have to completely disagree with him to the point of polar opposition.

Was discussing various benefits D&D, and by association C&C, have for kids, especially today, with one of my co-workers whom is a retired elementary school teacher. It encourages research of history and myth, thereby encouraging reading. It reinforces math and english skills, promotes teamwork and socialization skills, and helps develop critical thinking. So ANY comment about it being a terrible example for kids is about as far from fact as can be made.

[arcanechimera]

Some people don't like anything. I've had a lot of success with C&C and new/younger players.

[slimykuotoan]

Yeah, it's pretty weird. I responded that I disagreed and found his statement odd, to which he replied:

"No one who's read C&C and has a working moral compass would find the statement odd, let alone very odd."

Rude guy too.

[Go0gleplex]

Yeah, it's pretty weird. I responded that I disagreed and found his statement odd, to which he replied:

"No one who's read C&C and has a working moral compass would find the statement odd, let alone very odd."

Rude guy too.

Working moral compass... Hell, my nickname until I turned 21 was Paladin growing up because I WAS such a goody two-shoes. I actually had someone ask if I was related to Ward Cleaver at one point. So that particular statement of this 'gentleman' of yours...I find to be very much belonging in a sewage treatment plant. Likely the rest of what he has to say on the subject is likely also appropriately deposited there as well.

[arcanechimera]

I'm curious what exactly they find immoral. I must have missed something.

[Rigon]

It's Steve. Steve is immoral. He drinks Dr. Pepper.

R-

[alcyone]

And the guy's a game designer to boot.

I wonder what RPG he thinks is good for kids.

[maximus]

"a working moral compass..."? What is this guy talking about? Sounds like a stroke to me.

[slimykuotoan]

Yeah, he's still insulting me. Hard to believe this guy is a big name in the industry.

[Celticgamer]

It must be our 'pagan' or Pre/Non-Christian themed Codices too...we might as well have been including some other questionable materials too and be targeted by the Chick Tracts. Moral Compass, what an arrogant twit! Wow. His is broken. I wouldn't take it seriously, he sounds bitter about something.

"a working moral compass..."? What is this guy talking about? Sounds like a stroke to me.

[Rigon]

The only thing that would be slightly "immoral" about C&C is some of the scantily clad women in the art. Other than that, the guy must be cracked.

R-

[Go0gleplex]

The only thing that would be slightly "immoral" about C&C is some of the scantily clad women in the art. Other than that, the guy must be cracked.

R-

If it's the scantily clad women then the lackwit had better toss his TV and abstain from the theatres. There are a greater number of even more scantily clad women all over that engaging in far less wholesome behavior than killing or looting monsters.

[finarvyn]

Seriously, sounds like a hater of "old school" game design and philosophy. I don't know what he would recommend for kids, but probably something with story mechanics and not much actual dice rolling. Sounds very elitist to me.

The only thing that would be slightly "immoral" about C&C is some of the scantily clad women in the art. Other than that, the guy must be cracked.

I must have gotten the PC version of C&C. I don't think that there are enough scantily clad women in my copy.

[Traveller]

Isn't that an odd thing to say?

Only by someone who seems to worship at the feet of the late Pat Pulling. In your position I would ask him what he recommends, though being a game designer he likely would recommend his own game. Regardless, I'd like to see that thread.

[Rigon]

Regardless, I'd like to see that thread.

Me too.

R-

[DMMike]

Regardless, I'd like to see that thread.

Me too.

R-

+1

Also, if he's worried about scantily clad women he'd better move to keep kids off the Internet.

C'mon slimey...fess up. Its Jon Wick isn't it?


Mike

[Rigon]

I looked at Slimey's FB page to see if I could suss out the convo, but it didn't get me far.

R-

[Penny-Whistle]

Regardless, I'd like to see that thread.

Me too.

R-

Cherry picking his statements and not providing any context isn't helpful to understanding his point of view. Can you post a link?

[DMMike]

I found it, or rather Liz did as I don't FB.

Penny, Slimey pretty much posted it as is. His replies to the game designer (CA Suleiman) was polite and frankly I can't see why Suleiman questioned SKT's "moral compass."

BTW, Suleiman works for Make-Believe Games. Which considering the staff's experience at White Wolf makes me wonder about CA's ideas of child appropriateness?

GM Mike, not an expert on child appropriateness...but he knows it!

[Go0gleplex]

I found it, or rather Liz did as I don't FB.

Penny, Slimey pretty much posted it as is. His replies to the game designer (CA Suleiman) was polite and frankly I can't see why Suleiman questioned SKT's "moral compass."

BTW, Suleiman works for Make-Believe Games. Which considering the staff's experience at White Wolf makes me wonder about CA's ideas of child appropriateness?

GM Mike, not an expert on child appropriateness...but he knows it!

Well...looking through his FB page explains a lot of things. And not in his favor.

[Traveller]

Someone should tweak this f***nut and recommend FATAL.

[alcyone]

There's always someone out there to tell you that you are pretending to be an elf incorrectly and having badwrongfun. I see them a lot on the internet but never at my table, so I guess things are as good as ever.

There's plenty to debate about technically and philosophically in the role-playing world and I think it's great that people have different outlets for the stuff they want to play or ideas they want to explore.

But conversations that are supposed to end because one side proclaims moral superiority just make me want to disengage. Unless it's my side, of course. My moral compass always points directly at me. I keep magnets in my pockets just for that purpose.

[alcyone]

Also, judging from his output, I doubt his argument is as obvious as C&C having scary monsters or cuddling elf girls.

Debating someone who isn't present is impossible and silly anyway, I guess. Still curious though. Not too curious.

Back to what games to start kids on: you take them to a store with the money they earned on their damn paper route and they pick out a book that has a cover that looks awesome and they take it home and try to figure it out and play it with their friends, and if you are lucky they tell YOU if it's any good. Kids don't learn anything by other people protecting them and making choices for them about trivial things like which RPG to goof around with with their friends.

That said, I think C&C is just fine for that. When I was a kid we didn't have any money and we played whatever we could find at the mom and pop game shop when we had enough money, or whatever someone happened to be running, if we trusted them not to steal our minis or keep killing our characters because they found it amusing.

AND NOW I AM PERFECTLY WELL-ADJUSTED *TWITCH*

[MLMartin97]

If my memory of some conversations on RPGNet is correct, part of Suleiman's objection is to the term "Crusades" in the title.

ETA: Found the post: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?36 ... ost8112643

[Go0gleplex]

If my memory of some conversations on RPGNet is correct, part of Suleiman's objection is to the term "Crusades" in the title.

ETA: Found the post: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?36 ... ost8112643

Given what I read on his FB page, this would seem to allude to some 'political-my people were persecuted by your people' bull****. IF that is indeed the case, I'd have to call his entire stance on the unsuitability and all that rot complete and utter >expletive deleted<. But as noted above. Trying to second guess the person in abstentia is sort of pointless. Suffice to say the majority of us (if not all) would strongly disagree with his stance.

[Kayolan]

If my memory of some conversations on RPGNet is correct, part of Suleiman's objection is to the term "Crusades" in the title.

ETA: Found the post: https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?36 ... ost8112643

I started reading that up to this part, then I decided that his bs is not worth my time:

[bestialwarlust]

Getting offended over everything is the way many people are today. And if you disagree with those people then you are a narrow minded hateful bigot. These people usually won't have a thoughtful debate as their minds are already made up they just want to argue.

[maximus]

This guy is not worth another thought. He made his mind up he was offended by a word. He has an agenda, but doesn't have the guts to come right out with it. Instead he'll just insult and mock those that dare disagree.