Monday night Lejendary Adventure™ game

[Kayolan]

ARMOR REPAIR

Avatars with Weapons may attempt repair of arms and armor, though Mechanics is also required. Pantology can also be used at attempts of arms and armor repair, though use of that Ability does not grant the bonus points explained below. In the case of Extraordinary armor and shields, Metallurgy is also required.

Leather/cloth armor and wood/leather shields:
Repair is 2d6 or 4d6 points of Harm removed from the item per day spent in repair. Rate of Health restored per 8 hours spent in repair is 2-12 points, plus a bonus of 1 point per 10 points of Mechanics (Extraordinary Items average the Scores for Mechanics and Metallurgy). An additional 2-12 points can be gained if the Avatar uses a workshop containing tools appropriate to the repair needs, the Ability bonus does not apply to this extra 2d6 points of repair.

The cost for repairs is $5 per point of Harm removed by repair. This cost can be multiplied from x2-5 if the items are of a special material, complicated design, etc.

Extraordinary Items cost 10 times the amount (multiply the cost after any modifications).

Metal armor and shields:
Weapons and Mechanics are needed to attempt the repair of metal armor and shields. Metallurgy is also required if the item is of the Extraordinary sort. For every 8 hours of repair, 2-12 points of Health is restored, plus a bonus of 2-12 points if the Avatar uses a workshop containing the appropriate tools, though the Ability bonus does not apply.

The cost for repairs is $25 per point of Health restored. The cost for repair of plate armor is $50 per point of Harm removed. This cost can be multiplied from x2-5 if the items are of a special material, complicated design, etc.

Extraordinary Items cost 10 times the amount (multiply the cost after any modifications).

[Kayolan]

A great 2nd session last night.

500 Merits awarded to each of you.

Ability Merits go out to:

Egor is awarded 30 Weapons Merits for his critical strike on one of the cougars.

Antal the Black is awarded 30 Weapons Merits for his critical strike on one of the cougars.

Eboergar Berntsen is awarded 30 Ranging Merits for his critical use of that Ability while attempting to skin the cougars.

6 cougar skins were gained, each worth $300.

Each of you gains another point of repute in regards to the hunters in the area, Torgen and the others were impressed by the party's willingness and ability to kill the cougars.

[Lurker]

...and ability to kill the cougars.

By that, you mean my letting the cougar tear my armor to shreds round after round while I ineffectively tried to poke it with my sword ... until that last round at least. My last hit finally doing good damage and killing the beast.

[Kayolan]

Just a clarification on what I posted about armor repair:

The standard costs are for having others repair your armor, not the cost of repairing armor yourself.

[Treebore]

Its probably also a good idea to clarify that in order to make or repair ANY weapons or armor, you have to have Weapons and Mechanics. Which only my Avatar does. To repair magical versions, you need Metallurgy, which no one has. Fortunately the same Avatar doesn't have to have both Mechanics and Metallurgy to do the repairs, 2 Avatars with those skills can work together to repair magical stuff. My Avatar will likely never pick up Metallurgy, plus it is of far more use to a magic using type, so that needs to be considered for future advancements. Assuming we want our group to be capable of repairing its own stuff.

[Kayolan]

Its probably also a good idea to clarify that in order to make or repair ANY weapons or armor, you have to have Weapons and Mechanics.

Well, it is in my post above (including the possibility of Pantology being used).

[Kayolan]

I should also mention that Metallurgy is not an Ability that can be picked up without spending a few weeks of the proper instruction as well as a (quite) possible fee for tuition.

[Treebore]

Its probably also a good idea to clarify that in order to make or repair ANY weapons or armor, you have to have Weapons and Mechanics.

Well, it is in my post above (including the possibility of Pantology being used).

Remember how we both questioned if that included cloth and leather armors? As for Metallurgy I was going for clarifying that the same person doesn't have to have both Mechanics and Metallurgy as the requirement. Going for clarity often requires repeating certain info.

[Lurker]

I just want to clarify that I have none of the skills needed and my armor is over 1/2 torn up

Soooooo while the knight takes care of the armor repairs, me and the other hunter (with help as needed from the hermit and the bravo) will arrest the murder and be the heroes of the story

[Kayolan]

For those Avatars with Extraordinary Abilities:

RECOVERY OF AEPS
For every two hours of non-AEP-expenditure the Avatar regains his Speed Rating x1 in AEPs. If AEPs are spent before then, the rest time is reset to two hours. AEPs are regained at double the normal rate if the individual sleeps for four or more hours without awakening. The normal x1 Speed Rating is gained and upon awakening the Avatar gains the other half.

Astute readers may note that the rules do not state that there is a reset if AEPs are expended, that I am actually house-ruling this. They may be right, but I am not entirely sure that's the case regarding the intent. At any rate I think this way is better all-around and makes more sense, never mind ditching the tedious record-keeping that would be involved.

[rom90125]

Gents, I will be unable to participate tonight. My better half had a rough day in her classroom today, so we are going to catch a flick and chillax tonight. C'ya next week.

[Lurker]

Gents, I will be unable to participate tonight. My better half had a rough day in her classroom today, so we are going to catch a flick and chillax tonight. C'ya next week.

I understand ! However, today it is almost the other end result for me. My wife is in full grump mode, so no matter what she won't get better. Sooooooo, it is best if she goes reads a book or something and I game.

That said, hope you and yours are better after a good relaxing evening.

[Kayolan]

Aramis made a very good point tonight about Heart's Desire. Is it too powerful or is it just poorly explained. Gary, I'm sure, had no difficulty in running his games with this power available to his players, otherwise he wouldn't have included it. So just how does one run the game without this power being a campaign-breaker? The description of the power does little to aid the novice LM, if anything it only adds more confusion. Perhaps Gary placed too much credit on others being able to referee this or maybe it was an afterthought, maybe a bit of both. The power is the LA version of Wish, though without the better description given in the C&C game. Also, it should be limited in use somehow in other ways, since beginning Avatars have access to it. So just how do we get this to work?

Here is the power's description:

Heart’s Desire: (Extreme)
Through this Power the Enchanter is able to imagine any thing or outcome, and while so doing invest additional AEPs before actually triggering the force. This is a most uncertain Power, especially when something grand is imagined and the complete form of the desire is not clear. Based on the number of AEPs added and the extent and scope of the desire, the LM will establish parameters of the roll that is then made based on the Enchantment Ability.
For example, one desiring a companion just slain to be alive again, and investing an extra 50 AEPs, would likely have a bonus of –25 on the roll, with negative result points accruing to the Health of the now-living comrade. Someone desiring a specific thing of Extraordinary sort, powerful and unique, might invest 100 AEPs and have a penalty of +95 on the roll, any result over 190 gaining the object, but it being in, or otherwise through, the individual’s heart.

[alcyone]

A few thoughts. Probably nothing you haven't considered.

* The +95 is arbitrary; Gary is being nice giving you only a 5% chance of gruesome instadeath. The examples let you play with numbers to increase the risk or provide a downside, but I am sure "parameters" in no way limits you to using pluses and minuses to wreck our day.
* You aren't a novice game master, even if you haven't run a lot of LA, so that isn't that important.
* The players aren't novices either, and don't want the game to suck, so you can probably test the waters a bit without first making the power not worth taking.
* I have certainly had games go off the rails by giving an inch and losing a mile. At the same time, I nearly as many times have regretted not letting the characters be a little bit awesome. You are in control then and retcon, undo, reset, whatever to fix it.
* The first thing Elbereth used the spell for was reasonable, a map to a ring. It was a map that we could follow somehow to get to the object, but it didn't say it would give us the shortest, safest, or otherwise optimal path. It didn't say the map was accurate or not drawn by a 3 year old, etc. It didn't say it was a direct map, instead of a wild scavenger hunt through half the world to get all the bits we'd need to get there. And the beauty of the spell is the more lawyery it's worded the more bigger penalty you can levy on it. Besides, it saved you needing to find a hook to get us there. If you said you didn't want us to go there first, we are pretty reasonable.
* When a player pays for powers with their points or choices and it doesn't do what it says on the tin, it's also a downer. If there are limitations I guess that merits an LM/Player discussion to define them.
* Don't feel like you need to be a lightning wit to rule a wish like spell. You can ask for some time and let the game move on and come back with what the wish yielded after some consideration.

I personally think we could make it or other powerful spells work in the game using nothing but the rule "don't be a dick". By all means, if a spell actually does wreck the story or the feel you are going for, squash it and give something else in its place.

If you are just looking for a tweak of the spell text, I'd suggest instead you make some more examples on a graded scale and define the sorts of limits, costs, and downsides you'd make, so that if something of a similar type or power level comes up, you can rule it quickly, transparently, and a little bit consistently. I wonder if this activation ever came up in older LA discussions?

[Aramis]

Well, since I brought it up in the context of it being a wee bit too powerful, even though I am the one doing it, I also think it needs to be restricted .

The one thing I just outright would not allow (in the context of what we were doing last night) is to just wish for the ring. Or, really, wishing for any magical type things. If it was a once in a lifetime thing, like it tends to be in C&C sure. But not when I can do it multiple times per day.

As Aergraith wisely says, last night's usage seemed quite reasonable on the power scale. The player was simply asking for a plot hook to move the adventure onto "chapter 3" or whatever. No sneaky grab the treasure through the back way, or anything like that.

However, Kayolan did make an excellent point with the particular usage I was attempting, the map of a location unknown to me, in that it may fall afoul of the "This is a most uncertain Power, especially when something grand is imagined and the complete form of the desire is not clear. Based on the number of AEPs added and the extent and scope of the desire," clause.

However, my reading of that is that it adjusts the roll, rather than forbids things outright. Given that the map is not "a specific thing of Extraordinary sort, powerful and unique" I don't think the penalties would rise to anywhere near the +95 for magic items , which to me again sounds like Gygax attempting to have a "no wishing for magic items" rule, which as I stated, is a good rule anyway

In a broader sense though, it is going to be very difficult to not let such a spell get a bit crazy. Let's say the party fights the griffons and finds a gold ingot as its treasure. The ingot is worth enough to keep them in luxury for a year. What a find! Elbereth then takes the ingot and "wishes" for another gold ingot. No penalties because he has the exact thing in hand.

The Elbereth mine soon begins producing 5 gold ingots a day, every day (or does it, maybe he starts wishing for 5 gold ingots each time, then 25...). The rest of the party soon ceases to adventure as they can now all afford castles and servants. Soon the local economy collapses as it is flooded with gold ingots. The Orc tribes to the East get wind of the riches to be found and invade. Campaign over! (or, just beginning? ) . Not to mention, if Elbereth is producing gold ingots every day, why isn't every wizard doing so? Or producing suits of armor, or tame griffons, or raising all their relatives from the dead. The implications for the way the world would work with so many daily wishes floating around is truly mind boggling

Which is why I said on day one, "kayolan, do you realise how powerful this is?"

I actually find the surmise spell almost as powerful. Think of how many times the party needs a crucial piece of information to move onto the next phase of the module. Who is poisoning the water in town? Where is the secret bandit base? What is causing the mysterious fires in the dread forest? These are plot hooks that usually need an entire 6 week adventure to unravel. My character can unravel them in a leisurely afternoon while smoking his pipe in the tavern

For example with the ring "dungeon". Is the ring north of my current position? Is it north west? is it west... Then: is it within 100 miles of my current position? 200? 150? 125? 112?. Then we go to the locality and I begin again. Is it south of that copse of trees? North? south of the river?. No map needed

People in D&D often talk of how powerful spells like fireball and meteor swarm are, but these types of games accomodate such powers quite well. The things that are game breaking are things like teleport (which my character can also do ) and divination spells and detect lie and detect magic and so on. They are game breakers not because of power, but because they break the story.

[Kayolan]

There are three approaches that will solve the issues that Aramis brings up.

First, I rule that beginning Avatars can only have up to Grade 4 (Moderate) Powers/Activations. Powers of Grade 5+ must be acquired through play.

Second, I remove certain Powers from the game that I think are too powerful or just don't go along well with the campaign style.

Third, I use a combination of on-the-spot LM fiat and house-ruling.

[Kayolan]

I really like the idea of limiting initial Activations to that of Grade 4 or less. Would this be a problem for you guys if we "re-do" your Activation selections based on this criteria?

This would bring the game more in-line with the campaign style I'm running.

[Rigon]

I'm ok with that.

R-

[Aramis]

There are three approaches that will solve the issues that Aramis brings up.

First, I rule that beginning Avatars can only have up to Grade 4 (Moderate) Powers/Activations. Powers of Grade 5+ must be acquired through play.

Second, I remove certain Powers from the game that I think are too powerful or just don't go along well with the campaign style.

Third, I use a combination of on-the-spot LM fiat and house-ruling.

Much of this has to do with how our "defaults" have been established by a C&C level of magic. The funny thing is, we happened to start a warhammer and lejendary game at the same time. So, I decided to try a "wizard" in both just to see how different magic systems work, one seemingly higher than C&C, one lower. Well, they both are certainly different than C&C

I would strongly recommend not doing #3. That's the opposite of a game. The GM is a god who sets all of the initial conditions and rules of the world; denying or adding races, spells, classes, and creating or approving all rules of magic, physics, and economics etc. But once these initial conditions are set, the world and its inhabitants are as bound by the rules as the players. That is what makes it a game.

#1 would involve radical surgery on the rules. I actually suspected all along some of these spells were going to be unworkable, but to truncate spellcasters so severely would definitely change the game radically. I don't know enough about the game to know how it would play out, but you really would no longer be playing Lejendary

Probably the best solution is to tell that damned Aramis to drop that spell and choose another. I do think that spell will probably be the most egregious. However, some of the spells seem to be based on the idea that a long casting time will make them tough to use in combat (true) without fully thinking through how they will be used outside of combat.. So there may be more issues

The amusing thing is I picked that heart's desire spell semi-randomly when I was choosing spells

[Kayolan]

Not sure how #1 would "involve radical surgery on the rules". I'm limiting the beginning Avatar's choices of Activations, not re-writing the game here.

[Rigon]

Not to derail the current topic, but when can we and how do we use Merits? I'm thinking I want to improve some of Antal's skills.

R-

[Kayolan]

Not to derail the current topic, but when can we and how do we use Merits? I'm thinking I want to improve some of Antal's skills.

R-

Spend them as you wish, though new Abilities and Powers are subject to LM approval, those usually include one, some, or all of the following: fees, teachers, and time for education/training.

Costs are in the Essentials and the Lejendary Rules for All Players.

Ability-specific Merits can only be spent on the Ability they are attached to.

Edit: also I should mention that Rank benefits require that you meet up with your Order.

[Kayolan]

Keep in mind that #1 is not in force. I'm not saying I'm implementing it as yet. Still thinking and asking for opinions on the matter.

[Treebore]

Capping the activation level is reasonable. I am not sure it would even affect Father John, since I don't recall his activation's being that difficult by default. The only one I recall that can BECOME that complex is the one that reverses petrification. I'll look later to see if any others might be above that level.

As for the specific spell in question, I think it can handled effectively simply by coming up and detailing the parameters. Using levels of Cash, as I mentioned last night, can cover a very wide range of things easily. $5,000 or less covers a LOT of items. The next range I suggested covers a lot fewer items, but they are still defined by their cash value. You just need to decide what cash value range falls into which degree of AEP cost and risk you want to establish.

So say this ring has a cash value of $100,000.00, To use the spell to get the ring would require that degree of cost and risk. So what would be the value of a mapo that would get you to the ring? Easily 1/4 the perceived value of the ring it would get you to, so place the cost and risks of getting a $25,000 item with the spell.

So that hard part is to decide what the ranges are, and what the costs and risks for those ranges are.

[Kayolan]

I decided not to cap them, just to add a couple clarifications here and there. I'll talk to you all about this on Skype.

[Kayolan]

Everyone that showed up last session (I think Rom was the only one that couldn't make it) is awarded 500 Merits.

[Kayolan]

Aramis, I've PMed you some information.

[Aramis]

Aramis, I've PMed you some information.

I activate heart's desire to reverse those changes

(looks good)

[Kayolan]

Next LA game will be on Nov. 2 (?)

Those of you that played last session are each awarded 500 general merits.

Ability-specific merits:

Antal the Black is awarded 30 Weapons Merits for his critical strike on the she-devil.

Sir Edwin Gothmyer is awarded 30 Weapons Merits for his critical strike on the she-devil.

Eboergar Berntson is awarded 60 Hunt Merits for 2 critical uses of that Ability while travelling.

[Rigon]

We playing tonight?

R-