I've got worms...

Jyrdan Fairblade · Post by **Jyrdan Fairblade** » Thu May 18, 2006 4:35 pm

Or, 3e D&D has really bottomed out.

But I'm sleep deprived and grouchy, so I figured that the former would be a more evocative title.

I picked up the latest issue of Dungeon to take a look at the final installment of the Age of Worms Adventure Path. I haven't been following it, but was curious to see how it ends. And what do I see?

The final baddy/ BBEG/ end boss has a stat-write-up that runs for almost three pages!

Faugh! A memorable villain is not made so by an over-abundance of special abilities and rules complications.

Just grousing and grumping...

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Thu May 18, 2006 4:59 pm

Wow, I knew that 3e was rules intensive, but that is ridiculous.
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Omote · Post by **Omote** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:24 pm

Combat_Kyle wrote:
Wow, I knew that 3e was rules intensive, but that is ridiculous.

I've been keeping up with the latest Adventure path from Dungeon. Despite the BBEG being lots of rules, the campaign seems to be awesome.

......................................Omote

FPQ
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 18, 2006 5:56 pm

I still subscribe to Dungeon. Yes, the NPC write-ups are often short stories in and of themselves, but the adventure ideas, maps, town, city, village, keep write-ups, etc... still make this a very worthwhile buy to me

The age of worms story arc is good, and very educational to a CK/DM who wants an example of how to plan a campaign from 1st to 20th level. Shackled City was/is good for that too, but some lessons learned were definitely incorporated into the Worms series.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Thu May 18, 2006 7:11 pm

They should make a campaign entitled "Stat Blocks Of The Bethuvian Demon-Whore"......

DAMN, I love C&C!!!
Ink
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serleran · Post by **serleran** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:43 pm

Was this three pages done in the "new" style, which, supposedly, is meant to make it much easier, and more condensed? If so, I think it either failed, or that final confrontation is a mess of mismatched "let's play with splat." Oh well. I'm glad I will never have to see it, but, I do think its funny. Three pages could have had a lot more in it... like, a way to "kill" the bad guy, but continue the story....

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Thu May 18, 2006 8:56 pm

Dungeons and Dragons lost its soul when it parted ways with its visionary, Gary Gygax, and the rest of the people who championed the game. No strategic plan can compensate for the leadership of a person with a vision. It'll probably only get worse.

Brian Miller

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 18, 2006 9:04 pm

They are in denial about why the "popularity" died off. ITS TOO FRICKING COMPLICATED!!! Who has, or wants, to spend that kind of time prepping a game or making a character? Answer: the people who still play it, IE not us or all the others who have "bailed". Too bad we can't make the ones who bailed aware of C&C.

miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Thu May 18, 2006 9:35 pm

Treebore wrote:
They are in denial about why the "popularity" died off. ITS TOO FRICKING COMPLICATED!!! Who has, or wants, to spend that kind of time prepping a game or making a character? Answer: the people who still play it, IE not us or all the others who have "bailed". Too bad we can't make the ones who bailed aware of C&C.

Competition and questionable distribution strategies have played a major roll in the decline of RPG gaming.

From what I could tell, D&D took a hit when it was pulled from the mainstream stores (K-mart, Target, etc.). Then White wolf divided the consumer base up, then Magic the Gathering took half of the whole shebang, then video games and Warhammer took away another chunk.

Competition just means the market matured. Tough to overcome that one.

But distribution is another matter...

Who buys gaming books from a bookstore?...people who already play.

Who buys gaming books from a hobby/collectibles store?...people who already play.

Who bought them from K-mart?...people who wanted to learn to play.

It appears that along the way the focus shifted to existing customers rather than recruiting new ones...bad policy, if you ask me, since the longer a gamer plays, the more likely they develop their own campaign and write their own adventures. It's for this reason I believe the amount of RPG related purchases generally declines with experience, wheras the newbies want everything.

Brian Miller

"If RPGs were in Walmart, the people who don't play would SEE it...and be more tempted to try it out.

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Thu May 18, 2006 10:09 pm

I can honestly say I liked 3e. Where they went wrong was with prestige classes and new feat books. I liked the basic system and the gaming group I played with while I was in the military used it. We were fans of minatures and large encounters and 3e works really well with both. In fact not many of us in that group liked 3.5, and we stuck with 3e even though they stopped making new products for it.

But of course I changed gears when I playtested C&C with Todd at Econ in 04, one of the greatest sessions of gaming ever.
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CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
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Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 18, 2006 10:11 pm

Huh!? White Wolf has been around for a very long time. CCG's were big before 3E and they are in a comparative nose dive now. 3E was supposedly big in 2000, 2001, and 2002. I think 3.5 ticked off a lot of people, even me. I still bought the 3.5 books and kept on playing until last May. I should say DMing, I still play in my daughters and wife's 3.5 games.

Yes, they have competition taking players away, but I think it has more to do with the game being to big and complex, with the 3.5 version thrown in, as the biggest culprit for WOTC's down turn. Plus I imagine a large number of the "new" DM's just plain sucked.

I think a much simpler, much easier to learn, fantasy RPG would appeal to a much larger audience then the current incarnation of "D&D". If you think about it that has always been the complaints about D&D. Too complex, too many rules, too many options books, too much of a nightmare to DM, too much of everything. Now too much money to buy all the rule books that newbies probably think they have to buy in order to be able to play the game.

I think if C&C could have the funding to do a decent ad campaign on TV it would beat out D&D with all the people who quit playing it because they wanted something simpler and quicker to play and prepare for. Then those who post about all the problems they have with 3E will take a better look at how C&C's SIEGE engine works, especially its flexibility, and switch over.

Believe me, if I ever hit the big jackpot lottery, I would be willing to invest a few million to see if I'm right.

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Thu May 18, 2006 10:15 pm

Quote:
Believe me, if I ever hit the big jackpot lottery, I would be willing to invest a few million to see if I'm right.

I've had the same idea and think about it every week I buy my lottery ticket.
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Thu May 18, 2006 10:34 pm

I just looked at the mag - It's disgusting. I wouldn't want to face that monster, nor even attempt to DM it. I still subscribe to the mag only because it has such pretty pictures and maps. The adventures tend to be OK, as long as you don't take the stat blocks too seriously.

As for the C&C system....

Well, I'm no add exec or marketing genius, but I think that many of todays youngsters would love the C&C game if they had a chance to try it out. How difficult can it be to get books sent to various groups around the US and in my case Canada. Groups that take care of underprivledged kids or places that just cater to kids groups. If even one kid picks up a book and starts to read, then perhaps a small seed will be planted and more will pick it up.

For me, when I was 14, 2 friends approached me asking for me to go play D&D (the original red box). I had no clue, but the school allowed us to have a room and we started playing. I instantly loved it. I see the same look on the face of my friends 15 year old, but he is turned away from all the reading he has to do to play a game. I have yet to show him C&C but I will when I see him.

Can't the trolls get a few hundred copies out to schools willing to start up a games club? Seriously, that's all it takes. We're no loner in the 80's where parents frown upon D&D. HECK... if parents who stopped playing years ago, find out their kids are trying it out, they will most likely support it and perhaps even jump in. It's alot better than having your kids roam the local malls or meet each other in back alleyways to screw around.

My Principal at the time, was a D&D player/DM but he couldn't admit it to any of the parents in the PTA. He eventually lost his battle to keep us in school and we got kicked out 3 years later. That will not happen today. If that type of principal or teacher still exists today, all you need is to offer him a chance at free material for his school if he were to set up a club. Point out all the good things about RPGs...

1 - Reading

2 - Socializing

3 - Fun times away from trouble

etc.....

Just my 2 cents...

Combat_Kyle · Post by **Combat_Kyle** » Thu May 18, 2006 11:08 pm

Well in high school we had a Reading and Games club which was a fancy name for a RPG club. We played alot of AD&D and GURPS and always got our own page in the yearbook. We had a great faculty sponsor and never met any flack from the parents groups, this was 95-99. Honestly for the price of $20 and needing only 2 books C&C is a great deal. If the Trolls could get some finnacial backing to do a marketing campaign C&C would be a major competitor with WoTC. TLG has a great product, one of us just needs to win the lottery to put some capital behind it.
_________________
CK the CK
"My goddess touched me at an early age."

-Grikis Valmorgen, Paladin

The beginnings of my homebrew campaign world and info for my play by chat game:
http://kbdekker.googlepages.com/home

Jynx · Post by **Jynx** » Thu May 18, 2006 11:23 pm

Combat_Kyle wrote:
We had a great faculty sponsor and never met any flack from the parents groups, this was 95-99.

I was playing back in 1984. There is a huge diference there! Back then, people were still uptight about certain things. I can't even begin to imagine what it may have been like 10 years earlier. All I know is that in the 90s and today, there shouldn't be any out cries.

Combat_Kyle wrote:
Honestly for the price of $20 and needing only 2 books C&C is a great deal.

You gotta spend money to make it. This is basically free advertising. Give away a few books to some schools who will use it, and gain a few new customers.

Treebore · Post by **Treebore** » Thu May 18, 2006 11:39 pm

Giving away books isn't free advertising. They still cost the Trolls around 7 to 8 dollars/book, plus shipping them to the various locations isn't free either. So to give away 100 books would still be $700 to $800 plus shipping out of the Troll Lords poor pockets. They are probably so poor that doing such a promotion and using it as a business tax write-off won't help them recoup any of the cost.

Hopefully one of us will win the lottery and put the money up to find out.

Inkpot · Post by **Inkpot** » Fri May 19, 2006 3:38 am

Bit of Trivia here....Vin Deisel was a horrible reader when he was a lad, and he used D&D to help him improve his reading skills. He's quite vocal about his support for the hobby.
Ink
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miller6 · Post by **miller6** » Fri May 19, 2006 5:12 am

The greatest opportunity for C&C is to whittle away at the dominating market position D&D has. Right now, C&C is basically a niche product. In the past, White Wolf showed that a single game (Vampire) could erode D&D's market segment. I believe C&C has the potential to do that, but in order to succeed it has to be embraced by the youngest generation of gamers which are currently firmly entrenched in 3rd Edition.

So the question becomes, how to pick up younger current gamers as well as recruiting new gamers?

The answer...who knows? But if I had to guess, I'd say it probably involves an innovation - some new form of game that has yet to be discovered...hmmm...perhaps Clakkity. 8)

Brian Miller

Catweazle · Post by **Catweazle** » Sun May 21, 2006 9:56 am

The best way to get newcomers into C&C rather than another game is simply to offer it to them. Parents, especially, will be interested in a a game that costs only a fraction of D&D's startup price.