Experience in general

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Captain_K
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Experience in general

Post by Captain_K »

As I have written in the past Domesdays... we use a simple night by night award basis. InFurno is running an Ardhe based series and using the modules. We tend to turn over every rock and every side quest.. with rough experience we were gaining levels to fast for the modules... so he's switching to milestone advancement. All PCs are super close in requirements so no thief is getting screwed...

Thoughts? Advantages? Issues? Pitfalls? Worries?

Thanks, Captain_K

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bulletmeat
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Re: Experience in general

Post by bulletmeat »

I don't think milestones work well with RPGs with XP level differentials.
AT the end of my 2e days we used blocks of XP per adventure. So a level one adventure would be 500-1000 xp, or level one of a dungeon would be 2000 or 2500xp (i think we were using the fighter xp as a baseline). That let the priest and thief (and fighter vs paladin) not feel cheated.

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Buttmonkey
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Re: Experience in general

Post by Buttmonkey »

In a game like C&C with different XP progressions, I would not use straight milestone leveling. Instead, deviate from standard XP awards. You still give XP, but you don't give as much as the party would earn BTB. This slows down leveling while still preserving class balance.
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Telhawk
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Re: Experience in general

Post by Telhawk »

Have been searching the post lists to find something that matched an inquiry I've got; this one was the closest to the target without going back to pre-2010 or something like that. So, a brief consideration, and looking to see if anyone's got some official word on this, or what the various house rules are.

The Players Handbook makes very clear what the requirements and systems regarding level progression, irrespective of class, are. The character gets a certain number of xp through various methods, be they strict monster xp, treasure value where 1 gp = 1 xp, and role-playing rewards for helping the game move forward. A character who's hit the requirement level spends some time to move up the ladder, and once that's done, off they go.

Again, while the system as described is very straightforward and workable, one thing I wonder about is attendant cost. AD&D's DMG made it clear what the cost to advance per level was, and I wondered why there seems to be no such gate-requirement in C&C.

For myself, I would - again, irrespective of class - assign a cost of 1,000 gp per completed level, including the one being pushed for, in the leveling requirements. Thus, a seventh-level fighter would have to pony up 8,000 gp when doing the training for 8th level, such cost accounting for the time spent with qualified mentors, equipment, and housing during this period; consequently, the fighter would be spending 1,000 gp per week in the eight weeks it took to hit 8th level, get the hit points, BtH, and so forth. Arcane spell-using classes would spend this money on, again, qualified tutors and equipment cost - special paper, magical ink, various testing procedures and so forth. Rogues, clerics and bards would have the cost apportioned on similar items.

I believe that assigning cost along with one-week-per-level training time is of value because it can provide a place for the characters to clear out some of the cash they've managed to put together, thus taking another step in preventing various campaigns from becoming the dreaded Monty Haul experiences.

I would, also, put forth the statement that finding a qualified trainer is no longer necessary after a character hits 10th level - which is pretty much "name" level for the various classes, at which point I figure that the number of NPCs who, arguably, could provide such training are few and far between in the first place; by 10th level, the PCs would pretty much be the cutting edge of professionalism and could, I would argue, be hired on themselves to provide training for assorted NPCs - this could lead to various adventure hooks, depending on how things work out. One possible exception to the "no trainer needed at 10+" would be the monks, if the CK decides to stick with level 17 as a maximum, as outlined in the AD&D 1e Players Handbook, if the CK decides to stick with such class limitations. I would institute an additional house rule that self-conducted training takes half-again as long as it would if a trainer were acquired, rounded up, and also cost another half in gp expenditure (a 9th level fighter training on his/her own for 10th level would take fifteen weeks as opposed to ten, if a trainer were participating, and cost 15,000 gp as compared to the 10,000 gp it would normally run).

So, minor a point as it may be as far as the game as a whole is considered, but throwing the question out to the community: How have you guys handled this angle? And have the Devs provided any insight, should the question have come up before? Hoping to hear from the gang soon.

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Captain_K
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Re: Experience in general

Post by Captain_K »

I personally have not used training cost and time to train, and having to find and pay for mysterious trainers, one for every class, since the 80s.

Its all so contrived. It fits OK for big city social setting, rigid class structures, etc. Some classes it makes sense.. but creating the chance for training for me is all part of the game and cool NPCs.

The black knight at the bridge takes out the whole party, kindly and in a non-lethal manner, then invites them for tea and another go.. this time he gives them all pointers.... tells them to come back to his bridge anytime they want a good dust up... there is the trainer for all things fighter and you train, rather you want to or not, every time you try to cross the bridge.... That's how a human obtains 17th level fighter status before his knees give out.

Crazy hermits, Elfin Colleges, cloister of monks, sect of druids who seem to always have an infestation of Bards, thieves, and strong men the PCs need to distract... I work training into the game and into experiences.

That said, I have a simple point based experience system (see Domesday 8 or 9), I give no experience for money or items, I'm kind of a tight wad on cash and magic items... that said, they have their stuff, they are always looking for ways to afford this or that, even as they approach 6th level.. still rather poor. Means they still hunger for items, better armor, or cool "tech" (holy water, fire bombs, smoke grenades, etc.).
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Captain_K
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Re: Experience in general

Post by Captain_K »

WOW, color shift!
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Lurker
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Re: Experience in general

Post by Lurker »

Captain_K wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:35 am
I personally have not used training cost and time to train, and having to find and pay for mysterious trainers, one for every class, since the 80s.

Its all so contrived. It fits OK for big city social setting, rigid class structures, etc. Some classes it makes sense.. but creating the chance for training for me is all part of the game and cool NPCs.

The black knight at the bridge takes out the whole party, kindly and in a non-lethal manner, then invites them for tea and another go.. this time he gives them all pointers.... tells them to come back to his bridge anytime they want a good dust up... there is the trainer for all things fighter and you train, rather you want to or not, every time you try to cross the bridge.... That's how a human obtains 17th level fighter status before his knees give out.

Crazy hermits, Elfin Colleges, cloister of monks, sect of druids who seem to always have an infestation of Bards, thieves, and strong men the PCs need to distract... I work training into the game and into experiences.

That said, I have a simple point based experience system (see Domesday 8 or 9), I give no experience for money or items, I'm kind of a tight wad on cash and magic items... that said, they have their stuff, they are always looking for ways to afford this or that, even as they approach 6th level.. still rather poor. Means they still hunger for items, better armor, or cool "tech" (holy water, fire bombs, smoke grenades, etc.).
I tend to be there with you on this. I've never really focused to much on finding a trainer, spending time in the training etc for going up a level. Normally it has been once you hit the exp amount you go up the level.

Key words "normally has been", because for the Monday night Ne'er do wells Masque of the red death game, I'm changing it a little.

I am not giving them exp every game. I have key points in the stories where they get the exp that has been building up. So with that it is kind of like mile stones. However, the classes do advance at a different rate (just ask Rigon and his Demon Hunter about slow paladin like exp progression), so it isn't full up mile stone level progression.

Also, I am using time off for training when a character goes up a level. However, it is only for when the class gets a new skill or ability and not for when one of their current abilities improves.

For the trainers, they are (or will) come from role playing and story line NPCs. So it does help the players when they go out of their way to play nice with all the various NPCs they meet, put effort into being part of or getting more involved with the various societies and groups.

That said, I do like your 'black knight' example. I may steal it for any future standard medieval fantasy game I run.

Rgr on no exp on money or items, and being a tight wad there too. I always hated the plethora of magic items, and the murder hobo mindset that results from it. To me, outside the items like holy water and the like, magic items should items tied to key events an the critical mile stone of the character, or are prep for the future big villains they will face,
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Kayolan
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Re: Experience in general

Post by Kayolan »

I tried using the training rules and it turned into a disaster for the campaign. Training works well if you have simple and quick adventures with plenty of downtime in between them. But if the PCs are participating in a time-sensitive campaign, having one of them take a few weeks off to train, then doing that again when the next PC levels quickly becomes a snail's pace at best, at worse it gives the enemy too great an advantage. I find that it works best if it's offered as an option, with some kind of benefit to the PC other than the leveling itself. For example, offer the player a chance to reroll a Hit Die from a previous level, offer the chance to gain an Advantage (from the CKG), offer the chance to know a new spell, maybe a unique spell, etc. Seeking out a master who will teach the PC something entirely new can be a fun adventure. It would most likely be costly and dangerous, as the master might require the PC to go on a quest to obtain something the master desires and only after the PC is able to accomplish it, does he gain the benefit of the training. These types of training periods can also be put off until it's the proper time for it, which gives the CK a reason for a solo quest if you find yourself with just one player for that session :)

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Captain_K
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Re: Experience in general

Post by Captain_K »

"Damn, I've run out of magic ink. Guys, will you help me get the ingredients I need to make more ink? I have my master's list of ingredients we need. Let's see,,,, giant squid ink, medusa saliva,... this could be quite the shopping trip!"
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