Kickstarters

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
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Brad
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Brad »

Traveller wrote:Your statement that "[TLG editing] has sucked from day one and has never gotten any better" is patently untrue. One only needs to leaf through the six printings of the PHB to see that the editing has vastly improved since the game's inception
Point proven. Six editions, and nearly 12 years, later "most" of the typos corrected. Somehow that means editing is better, even though each new release is just as bad as the others.

It's not an ad hominem to call fanboys delusional when they use this line of reasoning.

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Traveller
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

That you can make ad hominem attacks? You've proved that you can do that. You've also proved that you're unable to engage in meaningful discussion. Thus this will be my last post to you, as I have little patience for people like you.

It took TSR eight or nine printings to get the AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide fixed, as noted by the presence of a "Revised" byline on the title page. The Player's Handbook went through some fifteen or sixteen printings and had exactly two items fixed in the book, although there was far more to be found in the book. The Monster Manual only took four printings, but not everything was corrected.

Think about that sir. The most famous game in the role playing industry had errors in it that were never corrected throughout the decade or so that the game was in print. Classic Traveller's revised version from 1981 never had any errors corrected and it saw multiple printings in the five years from 1981 until 1986, when MegaTraveller was released.

I could continue on with the history lesson, but given how you've prejudged the people on this thread and closed your mind to meaningful debate, I'm not going to waste the energy. I don't need to stoop to your level to make my point.

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mmbutter
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by mmbutter »

He's so obviously a troll, based on his low post count, that I don't know why you even bother...

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Traveller
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but this one hanged himself. So, he's out of sight, out of mind, if you catch my drift.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by moriarty777 »

The guy is an ass.

I am, by no means, a delusional fanboy. I have been (fairly) critical of past releases and continue to do so. My history of various reviews on my blog a testament to this. But my entire point (as well as trying to take the thread down a notch in terms of negativity) was to try an focus on the positive aspects and the entertainment that all these games can bring us.

Personally, if people want to stop supporting the Kickstarters and whatever, then I say FINE. Everyone has the right to do so and there are several reasons to do so. But don't come around and treat everyone like idiots or fanboys if something doesn't meet YOUR expectations and standards.

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pawndream
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by pawndream »

Late to the discussion, but over the past week and a half I received two separate boxes loaded to the gills with Kickstarter items from the following campaigns: Three Sisters, Aihrde, and Victorious.

I went in on the Three Sisters because I wanted the three core books in color. I got them...and a host of other stuff that was cool to get (epic level play, slip sleeve, arms and armor, elemental spells, etc.) but was not the reason I went in on the Kickstarter. I think all the items have been fulfilled from this Kickstarter, but I don't really know or care. I got the three books I wanted. Everything else is gravy.

Similar situation for Aihrde. I think I have now received all associated items with this Kickstarter, but I am not really sure. At any rate I have the Codex, Player's Guide, and a ton of maps, adventures and other doo-dads. If anything else shows up in the mail, fine. As far as I am concerned, this one is fulfilled for me.

Victorious stuff has also fulfilled.

As far as editing goes, I don't really get bent out of shape about editing errors. None of these take away from my enjoyment of the game. I find editing/continuity errors in anything I read or see: books, magazine, newspapers, television, movies, games, etc. Whatever. People make mistakes. No big deal.

Now, if there were players (unpaid volunteers) who spent time combing through these books and providing feedback to TLG to try to wrangle these errors out of the book and that feedback didn't make the cut for whatever reason...well then I can understand their frustration. I have worked in the publication management realm before and I can assure, this is not uncommon due to version control issues, etc. It happens all the time.

In the end, C&C is still a great game even with the warts and has a great track record of fulfilling their Kickstarters.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

@pawndream: Hey, we welcome positive discussion here boss. The negativity M has noticed upthread is simply because the lot of us are very passionate about not just the games, but the company as well. Like I tried to say before, we all want to see TLG grow and prosper. It's just there are times when the only thing you can do is make a thread and vent your frustration.

I understand the frustration. Many of you know how I take editing SNAFUs personally, and why. It bugs me even more when I'm the cause of it, such as in the armor and shields tables in Monsters & Treasure. The reason is that I have a perfectionist streak in me, and that perfectionist streak causes me to get bent when I see something uncorrected, whether my fault or not. But, I'm sure that TLG will tell you that they're happy you're enjoying the game. Such dedication and passion should be rewarded. :)

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by pawndream »

Traveller wrote:@pawndream: Hey, we welcome positive discussion here boss. The negativity M has noticed upthread is simply because the lot of us are very passionate about not just the games, but the company as well. Like I tried to say before, we all want to see TLG grow and prosper. It's just there are times when the only thing you can do is make a thread and vent your frustration.

I understand the frustration. Many of you know how I take editing SNAFUs personally, and why. It bugs me even more when I'm the cause of it, such as in the armor and shields tables in Monsters & Treasure. The reason is that I have a perfectionist streak in me, and that perfectionist streak causes me to get bent when I see something uncorrected, whether my fault or not. But, I'm sure that TLG will tell you that they're happy you're enjoying the game. Such dedication and passion should be rewarded. :)
What is "wrong" with the armor and shield table? I have seen people point this several times and for the life of me I cannot see what the fuss is over. Maybe I am just dense, but the table looks fine to me.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Go0gleplex »

pawn...you took the words right out of my mouth. The errors do not take away from enjoying the game. It is not like perfection is a requirement such as in some professions. Are errors annoying? Can be. Are they worth throwing a tantrum like a spoiled five-year-old? Not really. I wish the editing was a bit tighter in the output sometimes but whatever. Not like they break the game mechanics. Errors happen, especially when you are juggling a dozen things in the air at a time, which I happen to know is sort of status quo for the Trolls with all the different KS's they are working on. At least we can trust them to get them to us in the end. Unlike some folks that will remain unnamed. I don't need perfection, just what I paid for.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

I guess I can understand errors bothering people, even so much as to decide to not buy product from the offending company ever again. I've never felt that way, but objectively I understand it.

What I can't understand is the apparent need of such a person to go and shout about it? If you don't want to support a company anymore, fine. Then don't buy any more product. But why bring in the drama? <shrug>

I think Amazon has reviews sections, those are the places for such opinions IMO.

If you want to discuss errors in a product and insist on better from the Trolls, that's certainly valid here. I can't see the outrage being pertinent though.

Mike
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Like I have said before, if I let simple editing errors bother me, I would never have played an RPG. EVERY SINGLE RPG has errors. Every last one.

The ONLY reason the Victorious errors bug me is twofold. First, I KNOW a lot of stuff was sent into Steve to make the main rule book nearly, if not actually, PERFECT. However, despite this, TLG Steve some how failed to incorporate all that was sent in. He missed a LOT.

Second, because I was dumb enouogh to believe the Trolls were actually going to put out a very well edited book, I backed for the leather version in addition to the normal HC.

So while these two things bug the crap out of me, it in NO WAY makes me like Victorious any less. I really, really like how Mike put all the rules I saw as a play tester, and didn't see as a playtester together, to make for a unique SIEGE engine based Supers RPG.

As far as I am concerned, Mike hit the ball out of the park with Victorious.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Traveller
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

pawndream wrote:What is "wrong" with the armor and shield table? I have seen people point this several times and for the life of me I cannot see what the fuss is over. Maybe I am just dense, but the table looks fine to me.
Check out the link in my signature, and compare it to the actual page.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Rhuvein »

DMMike wrote:I think Amazon has reviews sections, those are the places for such opinions IMO.
Yep, and TLG's main website for each of their products!
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Brad
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Brad »

Gotta be a troll to point out terrible, terrible editing, right? I never once stated the material was unusable, but I find it troublesome that any sort of legitimate criticism is simply deflected and ignored. No wonder the editing problems persist.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Buttmonkey »

Brad wrote:Gotta be a troll to point out terrible, terrible editing, right? I never once stated the material was unusable, but I find it troublesome that any sort of legitimate criticism is simply deflected and ignored. No wonder the editing problems persist.
Hey, look who's back!

Nah, you're not a troll for pointing out editing issues. You're a troll for refusing to acknowledge the editing in the PHB is vastly better in the 6th printing than the first. That, and saying you are no longer going to buy TLG product, yet you keep coming back here to slam TLG. If you aren't a customer anymore, the only reason to come back repeatedly is to troll the forums.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Go0gleplex »

I don't think anyone has not acknowledged the editing issues Brad. Nor are anyone (with the exception of maybe Traveller) in a position to do much about such things, and even then, it sort of falls back on to the folks putting it all together, which none of us are. So calling us fanboys and other jabs is a bit of a red flag and childish, simply because few, if any, of us share your particular views on the issue. Last I'll say on this.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

Go0gleplex wrote:I don't think anyone has not acknowledged the editing issues Brad. Nor are anyone (with the exception of maybe Traveller) in a position to do much about such things, and even then, it sort of falls back on to the folks putting it all together, which none of us are. So calling us fanboys and other jabs is a bit of a red flag and childish, simply because few, if any, of us share your particular views on the issue. Last I'll say on this.
+1

Criticism to try to get the Trolls to do better is fine, but please make it constructive and not drama.

Mike
The Save for Half Podcast: Old School RPGs Reviewed
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Victorious: Steampunk Adventure in the Age of SuperMankind
http://www.victoriousrpg.com

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Brad
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Brad »

Buttmonkey wrote: Hey, look who's back!

Nah, you're not a troll for pointing out editing issues. You're a troll for refusing to acknowledge the editing in the PHB is vastly better in the 6th printing than the first. That, and saying you are no longer going to buy TLG product, yet you keep coming back here to slam TLG. If you aren't a customer anymore, the only reason to come back repeatedly is to troll the forums.
Brad wrote:[Six editions, and nearly 12 years, later "most" of the typos corrected. Somehow that means editing is better, even though each new release is just as bad as the others.
I specifically addressed that. "Refusing to acknowledge" means I shouldn't bring up the bad editing in NEW products? Who's the real troll here, sir? Anyone who knows me also knows I'll probably buy whatever else the Trolls publish, hence my valid implacability with the current editing process. Sorry, you're obfuscating what I actually said in an effort to make your untenable position reasonable.
Go0gleplex wrote:I don't think anyone has not acknowledged the editing issues Brad. Nor are anyone (with the exception of maybe Traveller) in a position to do much about such things, and even then, it sort of falls back on to the folks putting it all together, which none of us are. So calling us fanboys and other jabs is a bit of a red flag and childish, simply because few, if any, of us share your particular views on the issue. Last I'll say on this.
That's fair, and unwarranted on my part. I apologize, but I am getting really annoyed with the same problems for many...many...years.
DMMike wrote: +1

Criticism to try to get the Trolls to do better is fine, but please make it constructive and not drama.

Mike
Fair enough.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

In an effort to "eat my own words' to Brad <grin>, does anyone have any ideas on how we as a community can help TLG in improving their editing?

Like Treebore, I'm surprised and somewhat disheartened to see that the many edits for the Victorious rules were somehow missed in the printing of the hardbacks (at least the KS ones). But I'm not sure if the problem point is Steve or Peter. I saw Trav's edits and except for a couple of points he's been the best editor I've worked with in 12+ years in this industry. Granted, most of my work has been through TLG!



Any suggestions?

Mike
The Save for Half Podcast: Old School RPGs Reviewed
http://www.saveforhalf.com

Victorious: Steampunk Adventure in the Age of SuperMankind
http://www.victoriousrpg.com

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by alcyone »

DMMike wrote:In an effort to "eat my own words' to Brad <grin>, does anyone have any ideas on how we as a community can help TLG in improving their editing?

Like Treebore, I'm surprised and somewhat disheartened to see that the many edits for the Victorious rules were somehow missed in the printing of the hardbacks (at least the KS ones). But I'm not sure if the problem point is Steve or Peter. I saw Trav's edits and except for a couple of points he's been the best editor I've worked with in 12+ years in this industry. Granted, most of my work has been through TLG!



Any suggestions?

Mike
This sounds like the kind of problem you get when a document management or version control system isn't being used, and instead files are copied and emailed around with different names, but I have no insight into the process so don't know for sure. If there is no automated system in place, a good first step would be for TLG to buy one.

Not only would that make it less likely that edits are missed, but it helps provide the bandwidth to bring additional editors on and have them work productively together instead of just multiplying the lines of communication.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Go0gleplex »

Aer brings up a good point. Engineering/Drafting edits and revisions are a way of life with CAD drawings and to preserve the chain of record we are normally not allowed to delete or overwrite previous versions. Thus file naming practices are a very big thing. Not just the name of the document/job but it has a version number and date as part of the file name. For publishing purposes it would seem that some similar standards/practices should be implemented if not already having been done so. This makes it easier to find the most recent version. Unified document storage location is also another key part of this. Having various versions of the document floating around in various locations is just asking for Murphy to kick your ass. With iron boots.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

One thing I tried to do in all the Word documents was to use Word's collaborative features. In Word, the author or other readers can approve or reject those edits or suggest alternates. Unfortunately, the sheer number of edits make this somewhat impractical. It also didn't help much with Victorious because the editing and collaborative features don't work with screen readers.

A versioning system would help minimize the possibility of the wrong version of the file being used. But it still doesn't help with human error. As to the files themselves, they are in a single location, a dropbox. Other than labeling edit copies with version numbers, I don't know what else can be done.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by alcyone »

When I talk about versioning or document management, I mean something automated like Sharepoint, where you log in, check out files, check them in, annotate what the revision is about, manage and tag all associated assets, such as artwork or contributions and have an automated workflow that manages who sees what when and signs off on changes to push them to the next stage. It could also manage the files that are created in the layout process. Sharepoint is just one example, other systems exist, some are programmable and some are easier to use out of the box, and/or run on other operating systems besides Windows Server.

Dropbox is really just a central storage solution; you could use it conjunction with a more complete document management system, but it's solving a different problem.

As a programmer I use revision control systems like Subversion or Git, which are more useful for plain text files like source code, but the principle is similar; versioning is not something a human being has to coordinate with anyone; the system tracks that and humans just deal with the conflicts when they arise. Using special file naming conventions works (sort of) when there is a small group making changes, but as the communication paths multiply, you want more of an automated database driven solution.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Aergraith wrote:When I talk about versioning or document management, I mean something automated like Sharepoint, where you log in, check out files, check them in, annotate what the revision is about, manage and tag all associated assets, such as artwork or contributions and have an automated workflow that manages who sees what when and signs off on changes to push them to the next stage. It could also manage the files that are created in the layout process. Sharepoint is just one example, other systems exist, some are programmable and some are easier to use out of the box, and/or run on other operating systems besides Windows Server.

Dropbox is really just a central storage solution; you could use it conjunction with a more complete document management system, but it's solving a different problem.

As a programmer I use revision control systems like Subversion or Git, which are more useful for plain text files like source code, but the principle is similar; versioning is not something a human being has to coordinate with anyone; the system tracks that and humans just deal with the conflicts when they arise. Using special file naming conventions works (sort of) when there is a small group making changes, but as the communication paths multiply, you want more of an automated database driven solution.
That does sound like the perfect solution. Well, once its decided which option to chose for use.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by DMMike »

Aergraith wrote:When I talk about versioning or document management, I mean something automated like Sharepoint, where you log in, check out files, check them in, annotate what the revision is about, manage and tag all associated assets, such as artwork or contributions and have an automated workflow that manages who sees what when and signs off on changes to push them to the next stage. It could also manage the files that are created in the layout process. Sharepoint is just one example, other systems exist, some are programmable and some are easier to use out of the box, and/or run on other operating systems besides Windows Server.

Dropbox is really just a central storage solution; you could use it conjunction with a more complete document management system, but it's solving a different problem.

As a programmer I use revision control systems like Subversion or Git, which are more useful for plain text files like source code, but the principle is similar; versioning is not something a human being has to coordinate with anyone; the system tracks that and humans just deal with the conflicts when they arise. Using special file naming conventions works (sort of) when there is a small group making changes, but as the communication paths multiply, you want more of an automated database driven solution.
That does sound pretty useful. What is the subscription cost of such a service? Or is it a front-end cost for the software?

Mike
The Save for Half Podcast: Old School RPGs Reviewed
http://www.saveforhalf.com

Victorious: Steampunk Adventure in the Age of SuperMankind
http://www.victoriousrpg.com

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

DMMike wrote:
Aergraith wrote:When I talk about versioning or document management, I mean something automated like Sharepoint, where you log in, check out files, check them in, annotate what the revision is about, manage and tag all associated assets, such as artwork or contributions and have an automated workflow that manages who sees what when and signs off on changes to push them to the next stage. It could also manage the files that are created in the layout process. Sharepoint is just one example, other systems exist, some are programmable and some are easier to use out of the box, and/or run on other operating systems besides Windows Server.

Dropbox is really just a central storage solution; you could use it conjunction with a more complete document management system, but it's solving a different problem.

As a programmer I use revision control systems like Subversion or Git, which are more useful for plain text files like source code, but the principle is similar; versioning is not something a human being has to coordinate with anyone; the system tracks that and humans just deal with the conflicts when they arise. Using special file naming conventions works (sort of) when there is a small group making changes, but as the communication paths multiply, you want more of an automated database driven solution.
That does sound pretty useful. What is the subscription cost of such a service? Or is it a front-end cost for the software?

Mike
For Sharepoint it was under $5/month, for non business licensing.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by alcyone »

DMMike wrote: That does sound pretty useful. What is the subscription cost of such a service? Or is it a front-end cost for the software?

Mike
I don't really work with the Microsoft stack anymore, and don't know what all of TLG's requirements are. This is generally the sort of thing a company might bring a consultant or solutions provider in for. I only mention it as an example and don't necessarily recommend Sharepoint in particular. It's a "platform" for building other products and solutions, so there is no upper bound on what you can end up paying.

It can vary a lot. Sharepoint Online is $5 per user per month, not sure about additional costs. I've only worked with earlier versions and wasn't the one doing the buying. You can pay far more for it than that if you require a custom solution beyond what it does out of the box, if you want to host on your own servers and databases, if you want to integrate with other software. It can require some training also, depending on if you intend to make the most of it.

Nuxeo is an open-source offering that does similar things. Again, it's a platform; to get the most out of it you build a custom solution for your company on top of it.

"Digital Asset Management" and "Content Management" are the keywords you'd look up to find products and services of this type.

As expensive and involved as this can get, it's no wonder smaller companies don't jump on this stuff.

One thing I saw while researching; dropbox does support some kind of versioning; I didn't know that as I don't really use it. I'm not sure if it's comparable to what these other solutions offer.
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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Treebore »

Top tier cost, for busines, was $15/month. I looked earlier today, after reading your initial post about this. Now there are higher tiers, but those read like they are for seriously big business'.
Since its 20,000 I suggest "Captain Nemo" as his title. Beyond the obvious connection, he is one who sails on his own terms and ignores those he doesn't agree with...confident in his journey and goals.
Sounds obvious to me! -Gm Michael

Grand Knight Commander of the Society.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Buttmonkey »

Brad wrote:
Buttmonkey wrote: Hey, look who's back!

Nah, you're not a troll for pointing out editing issues. You're a troll for refusing to acknowledge the editing in the PHB is vastly better in the 6th printing than the first. That, and saying you are no longer going to buy TLG product, yet you keep coming back here to slam TLG. If you aren't a customer anymore, the only reason to come back repeatedly is to troll the forums.
Brad wrote:[Six editions, and nearly 12 years, later "most" of the typos corrected. Somehow that means editing is better, even though each new release is just as bad as the others.
I specifically addressed that. "Refusing to acknowledge" means I shouldn't bring up the bad editing in NEW products? Who's the real troll here, sir? Anyone who knows me also knows I'll probably buy whatever else the Trolls publish, hence my valid implacability with the current editing process. Sorry, you're obfuscating what I actually said in an effort to make your untenable position reasonable.
No need to call me "sir". In this context, it sounds passive-aggressive instead of respectful. I'll assume you meant it in the nice way.

Your self-quote really makes my point for me (and saves me some pain in the ass cutting and pasting). I didn't obfuscate anything. Your exact words (just quoted by you) are "each new release is just as bad as the others". I stand by my complaint. Saying each new release is as bad as the others fails to acknowledge the dramatic improvements in the PHB over the years.

If you are done buying TLG products and basically washing your hands of all things TLG, why are you even posting here? You've made your complaints publicly. What's left but trolling?
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

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Re: Kickstarters

Post by Traveller »

@Buttmonkey: Don't forget the ad hominem attacks. If he was genuinely interested in discussing the issues instead of slagging the editing, the posters in this thread, and TLG in general, he would not have earned the label of "troll". There was never any intent at a discussion, simply flames.

Most of us here know that the editing for Castles & Crusades has significantly improved in the last few years, and giving Internet trolls any more airtime only fuels the fire. I don't really think we need to convince anyone that the editing has improved. Anyone can come to that conclusion on their own, and if they can't, they can go play the abomination, otherwise known as what Hasbro claims to be the 4th edition of Dungeons & Dragons, with its 100 pages of errata.

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