Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Open Discussion on all things C&C from new product to general questions to the rules, the laws, and the chaos.
User avatar
miller6
Lore Drake
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am

Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by miller6 »

As a long time C&CS and TLG Forum member, we've all seen the attempts to build this organization and I think I speak for everyone when I say, we're all tired of seeing nothing come from our efforts and have a hard time believing anything ever will. Our members have made valiant individual efforts only to become overwhelmed and feel that each time they lacked backing. Why? Because we went about it all wrong. It was never about TLG backing us. It's about giving people the chance to join us. That's how you build a network.

I know we're all busy with life and don't have time to do more than post on the forums. I was in the same boat. But the truth is, to make this self-supporting all we really need to get things rolling is for those who are running events at conventions or hobby shops to register your public games on an online site so gamers can find out where we are running events and what we're running so they can register for them as GMs or players. Then they will know who we are and have a reason to join us. Until then we're just a bunch of disorganized gamers doing our own thing and frustrated that's it's not making a difference and blaming TLG for not making it magically work. That's what we've seen so far. Time for something better that rewards our efforts.

Pathfinder Society organized 44,000 events and DM's Guild who just began has 7,000 events already. That's a lot of competition, but our numbers ARE out there. We can match that or better if we just give people a chance to sign up for our games. Then they'll join us and add their events and conventions.

I found an easy way to do that that doesn't cost a penny. I've set things in motion so that soon we'll have our own site to track our games nationally and internationally. Knightsofthecrusade.com is just the beginning of what will become a full scale gaming social network with far more functions than it has right now so don't count it out just yet. TLG is helping it grow with much bigger plans in the long run. So don't judge by what you see now. The site is designed for expansion which is already in the works so it's just a matter of time.

For now, I encourage you all to go to https://warhorn.net/
It's a free site that allows us to register all our games and open them up for GMs and players and lets us see where Pathfinder Society and DMs Guild are running events so we can show up there too. Time to show people that we can do anything they can. And nobody has to do any more than they're already doing. Just let us know when and where you game.

You're already on the TLG forum, but there's no way to register your events here. So go where you CAN and this time we can make a difference.

Brian Miller
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by serleran »

Needs 'Zilla sounds.

User avatar
Rhuvein
Cleric of Zagyg
Posts: 10792
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Somewhere in Time

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Rhuvein »

serleran wrote:Needs 'Zilla sounds.
And more cowbell! ;)
Count Rhuveinus - Lejendary Keeper of Castle Franqueforte

"Enjoy a 'world' where the fantastic is fact and magic really works!" ~ Gary Gygax

"By the pricking of my thumbs, Something wicked this way comes:" - Macbeth

User avatar
T1Hound
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:16 am
Location: Allentown, PA

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by T1Hound »

Interesting post.

Maybe the model needs to be changed. Something like providing the GMs with vouchers for players in the game to buy a core rule book for a TLG product or a special coupon code on the website for a product discounted.

Maybe it doesn't need to be monetary - but provide some marketing materials to GMs/knights to have available for at the game. The classic marketing of "why should you buy (play) this product?" Plus, going up against 2 giants in the RPG industry (Patherfinder and 5E) more ammo is needed.

I would run something at GenCon if I could get influence others to play the game and then I would feel as though I was contributing to growth of the game.

Is there room at the exhibitor booth to run an event? It may be beneficial to show people how easy it is to run the game.

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Omote »

If you run a game at GenCon, your table will be full. Have no worries about that.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
moriarty777
Renegade Mage
Posts: 3735
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by moriarty777 »

Omote wrote:If you run a game at GenCon, your table will be full. Have no worries about that.

~O
Absolutely true. There were a handful of games run last year at GenCon, and all of them pretty much filled up within an hour of event registration starting. I think others were added afterwards that had similar results.

Having not gone in to these sort of events before, I signed up and got into three of them. Two of them were for Amazing Adventures run by Jason and one was a C&C one run by Steve. All were a lot of fun and I must say that I enjoyed dying in Steve's -- a valiant death! ;)

M
Image

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Omote »

There's even a handful or more OFF-GRID (not listed with the convention) C&C events during GenCon every year.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
T1Hound
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 8:16 am
Location: Allentown, PA

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by T1Hound »

So with GenCon only a few months out, the Knights should start planning?

Does anyone want to join in with doing this?

User avatar
miller6
Lore Drake
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by miller6 »

I can't make it to GenCon this year, but suggest that C&CS/KOTC members who plan to attend leave a message about what games they plan to run and when. If anyone who is going wishes to coordinate a special event such as a tournament please let me or another KOTC officer or marshall know and we'll do what we can to help work out the details/prizes, etc.
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.

Lord Dynel
Maukling
Posts: 5843
Joined: Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Lord Dynel »

Omote wrote:If you run a game at GenCon, your table will be full. Have no worries about that.

~O
Hey buddy!

I have a comment/question. Not just for you, Omote, but anyone.

I think you hit the con scene a bit more than I do (cons in the SE/Florida absolutely suck) and I am curious about your comment. How much "new blood" do you see? Is there a lot? I agree about the table being filled, I've witnessed myself. I just wonder how the influx of new players are.

There's a couple tiny cons in the Orlando area, and there's a little gaming at them. From what I see, when one GM runs his Star Wars d20 game, the same eight people show up. Twice a year, every year. There's a lot of mitigating circumstances in that example, but your comment made me curious about the audience. There has to be players out there. Somewhere.
LD's C&C creations - CL Checker, a witch class, the half-ogre, skills, and 0-level rules
Troll Lord wrote:Lord D: you understand where I"m coming from.

User avatar
Buttmonkey
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2031
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Buttmonkey »

I've been to the last 4 Gary Cons (plus the first) and have seen quite a few new people playing C&C each year. There is definitely a group of regulars there, but I also run into people who only play occasionally or who are checking it out for the first time. On the other hand, Gary Con is a fairly target rich environment. At my local con, I can't get interest from players in anything I would like to run. It's all Pathfinder and 5E. My local market is just depressing.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

User avatar
miller6
Lore Drake
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by miller6 »

Haven't seen any new C&C games on warhorn.net yet, and nobody has signed up to GM or play in the ones I've posted for GaryCon 9.
I'm curious why nobody else is posting their convention or FLGS games or contacting me about C&C events you plan to run or play in at GaryCon 9 or another convention or FLGS? If you don't want to sign up for warhorn.net, send me the info about your events and I'll post it for you. The point is to get the word out so potential new players as well as current ones have a chance to take interest.

We all want to help TLG recruit new C&C and other siege engine games players, right?

Brian Miller
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Omote »

Lord Dynel wrote:
Omote wrote:If you run a game at GenCon, your table will be full. Have no worries about that.

~O
Hey buddy!

I have a comment/question. Not just for you, Omote, but anyone.

I think you hit the con scene a bit more than I do (cons in the SE/Florida absolutely suck) and I am curious about your comment. How much "new blood" do you see? Is there a lot? I agree about the table being filled, I've witnessed myself. I just wonder how the influx of new players are.

There's a couple tiny cons in the Orlando area, and there's a little gaming at them. From what I see, when one GM runs his Star Wars d20 game, the same eight people show up. Twice a year, every year. There's a lot of mitigating circumstances in that example, but your comment made me curious about the audience. There has to be players out there. Somewhere.
LD, GenCon is a very specific type of gaming convention. From specificallya RPG standpoint, many of the attendees can afford to spend a lot of money on GenCon, to get to GenCon, and even more money on all of GenCon's associated activities. People who come to GenCon who look for RPGs of C&Cs size and popularity are not looking to try new, they are looking to play old standbys that perhaps they don't get to play at home, or are not interested in anything new. Of my dozen or so C&C games I have played at GenCon, I know I have seen only 4 or 5 players that have never played. Two of which, were only interested in playing because Davis Chenault ran the game. The others, well, they got lucky to play in the C&C games I think. The rest of the players either were familiar with the game, or very familiar. So GenCon is not exactly the place to draw new C&C blood, at least at the level it is currently played. Also, most OFF-GRID C&C games do not draw new players -- they are players that couldn't get into the normally scheduled C&C games.

Smaller game cons could certainly see more new players. I'm running two C&C games at MARCON (Columbus, OH) in a few weeks. MARCON is fandom-style con with a smallish crwod (2000 attendees), that has a game room. But the good thing about MARCON is that there are lots of players who are willing to try new things. I usually see a few new players each year that I didn't see in the previous one.

I think it has a lot to do with the type of convention, and the style of con. GenCon is not conducive to new players for C&C without a huge concerted effort like Brian Miller is orchestrating.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
Omote
Battle Stag
Posts: 11560
Joined: Wed May 03, 2006 7:00 am
Location: The fairest view in the park, Ohio.
Contact:

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Omote »

miller6 wrote:Haven't seen any new C&C games on warhorn.net yet, and nobody has signed up to GM or play in the ones I've posted for GaryCon 9.
I'm curious why nobody else is posting their convention or FLGS games or contacting me about C&C events you plan to run or play in at GaryCon 9 or another convention or FLGS? If you don't want to sign up for warhorn.net, send me the info about your events and I'll post it for you. The point is to get the word out so potential new players as well as current ones have a chance to take interest.

We all want to help TLG recruit new C&C and other siege engine games players, right?

Brian Miller
Brian, GaryCon is still 11 months away. Even by GenCon planning standards, it's hard to plan a single 4 hour session that far in advance. I haven't personally signed up my MARCON events on Warhorn because that's MARCON's job (as I see it). Plus, my 2nd part of the game is not officially part of the convention schedule. I take players from the 1st part and invite them to the 2nd to finish off the adventure properly. Also, frankly, I'm not so into the hardcore convention style gaming method. I run for fun, and I hope the players have fun. I present C&C, but I do not hard sell it. Once running games feels like a chore or a job, I'm out.

Just my 2 coppers.

~O
@-Duke Omote Landwehr, Holy Order of the FPQ ~ Prince of the Castles & Crusades Society-@
VAE VICTUS!
>> Omote's Advanced C&C stuff <<

User avatar
Buttmonkey
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2031
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Buttmonkey »

miller6 wrote:Haven't seen any new C&C games on warhorn.net yet, and nobody has signed up to GM or play in the ones I've posted for GaryCon 9.
I'm curious why nobody else is posting their convention or FLGS games or contacting me about C&C events you plan to run or play in at GaryCon 9 or another convention or FLGS? If you don't want to sign up for warhorn.net, send me the info about your events and I'll post it for you. The point is to get the word out so potential new players as well as current ones have a chance to take interest.

We all want to help TLG recruit new C&C and other siege engine games players, right?

Brian Miller
Like Omote said, we are around 11 months out from Gary Con 9. I won't even start planning my events for GC9 until the late summer or fall at the earliest. I'm also not wild about the push to run my games under the C&CS/KOTC umbrella. I don't want to limit my games to people who have joined an RPGA-like organization, especially one that has membership requirements such as dues, submission of material, or running C&C games to get in. I go to Gary Con to have fun playing games with cool people. I'm not there to expand the TLG empire or further the activities of the KOTC/C&CS. I would love for TLG to make money and for there to be more events using TLG games. I think I'll do a lot more to help them achieve that by just running games for anyone who wants to play than I would by limiting my events to people who have joined KOTC/C&CS. Even if membership in KOTC or C&CS is stripped off as a sign-up requirement, I don't see a benefit in working with KOTC/C&CS to set up my Gary Con games. I can do that by submitting my events to the Gary Con site like I always have.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

User avatar
Traveller
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2021
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Traveller »

I've held off replying because up until now, I frankly didn't see replying as worth the time and energy. Between my regular jobs as well as work on Victorious and its supplements, I'm balls to wall busy. That's a fact of life, and something that miller6 does acknowledge.

The problem is that while miller6's post exudes enthusiasm, much of his message is lost in sweeping generalizations he makes about the members of the Society and the Knights present on these forums. Right in his opening sentence miller6 mentions, "I think I speak for everyone when I say, we're all tired of seeing nothing come from our efforts and have a hard time believing anything ever will". Ignoring the fact that the editor in me just can't stand that comma between "say" and "we're" when it should be between "efforts" and "and", as a Grand Knight Commander, no one speaks for me.

The sweeping generalizations immediately put the reader on the defensive, and in a post where you are trying to promote ideas, having a defensive reader right from the start effectively kills the idea before it even gets read.

The bullet points in miller6's post are.
  • To build a network you have to give people the chance to join.
  • Registering public games is how to make people aware of the product.
  • If done properly we can match the Pathfinder Society.
  • Use Warhorn to register games.
I agree that giving people the chance to join is the way to build the network. However, I don't believe trying to emulate the Pathfinder Society is the way to do it. Not that registering public games is a bad thing, as it does raise awareness, but we shouldn't be trying to be another Pathfinder Society. Instead, we should try to offer something that the Pathfinder Society does not. I believe that if we try to emulate the Pathfinder Society we will fail, due to simple economics of scale. Because of the success of Pathfinder product, Paizo is a much larger company than TLG and can afford to dedicate resources to the Pathfinder Society that TLG simply cannot. Paizo inherited much of WotC's fanbase after WotC discontinued the d20 System in favor of what came next. Having a game with a built-in fanbase means guaranteed sales.

Do I have an answer for how to improve the Society and KotC? No. I wish I did however.

User avatar
moriarty777
Renegade Mage
Posts: 3735
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am
Location: Montreal, Canada

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by moriarty777 »

Traveller wrote:I agree that giving people the chance to join is the way to build the network. However, I don't believe trying to emulate the Pathfinder Society is the way to do it. Not that registering public games is a bad thing, as it does raise awareness, but we shouldn't be trying to be another Pathfinder Society. Instead, we should try to offer something that the Pathfinder Society does not. I believe that if we try to emulate the Pathfinder Society we will fail, due to simple economics of scale. Because of the success of Pathfinder product, Paizo is a much larger company than TLG and can afford to dedicate resources to the Pathfinder Society that TLG simply cannot. Paizo inherited much of WotC's fanbase after WotC discontinued the d20 System in favor of what came next. Having a game with a built-in fanbase means guaranteed sales.

Do I have an answer for how to improve the Society and KotC? No. I wish I did however.
Having been involved a few years back with getting the Society geared up and working towards certain goals, like the Domesday, and given what has gone on for the past decade, any approach that has even a remote chance to get some traction is worth a try. Registering public games is not a bad idea in itself and I applaud it. If trying to model on others gets us moving, it's worth a shot. Hopefully, along the way, we can find our own way of doing things. But until there is a better way or an answer, this approach beats none at all.

As for Miller's 'generalizations', he may not be speaking for you and you may not agree with him but it's a fair assumption that more than a couple people agree with his post. What the hell a title has to do with any of this is beyond me. If anything, that post was simply trying to stir up enthusiasm and little more. It seems like that's the only way the C&CS got stuff done in the past -- enthusiasm. This is far from a bad thing as this is what usually gets the work started. But the work needs to continue.

You have contributed in countless ways over the years, as have I and others each in our own ways. Miller and some of the people helping him are just trying to contribute as well.

M
Image

User avatar
Traveller
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2021
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Traveller »

I don't have an issue at all with what he's trying to do. I simply don't think emulating another group is the way to do it, but I don't have an answer either. Nothing more need be said on that topic.

The sweeping generalizations made were totally unnecessary and only served to get in the way of his getting his point across. You're putting your reader on the defensive, and a defensive reader is unlikely to listen to what you have to say. The post would have been far better received than it currently has been had he simply stuck to the facts, and left his personal viewpoint out of it.

serleran
Mogrl
Posts: 13866
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by serleran »

The C&CS has tried a few things before -- it had its own forums, its own chat area, its own "everything." It flopped, and [highly likely] that was my fault. There have always been passionate people to get involved and it is their backs that bear the Atlas. If following the footsteps of a giant leads to success, it should be embraced; if foraging a niche on its own leads to success... it should be done. No one knows which path will go where so ideally, try everything and keep it together. Or, pick one thing and hammer it.

I'll be on vacation for 10 days starting Friday, and in that time I hope to finish a project long delayed. Assuming I do... may I ask for the title of C&CS Zookeeper?

User avatar
miller6
Lore Drake
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by miller6 »

Keep this discussion going. Naysayers speak up. Supporters speak up. I'm open to all comments even if they involve grammar.

Traveller, you joined the TLG Forum 8 days after I did. What's your gripe? You know me and should know I've been organizing C&C events ever since. This is nothing new except that I'm tired of going it alone and want to coordinate efforts.

All aforementioned matters aside, our quest is still to build a gaming network - our network, TLG's network, C&CS's network, KOTC's network. Make no mistake, I am supporting TLG in this effort despite a meager budget because I know it can work having watched RPGA grow form tens, to hundreds to thousands to over a million members. They didn't do it on a windfall from TSR. They did it on their own by connecting with gamers across the country and eventually internationally. And though I may not speak for everyone, I am not alone in believing Siege Engine games are the best ones out there. Their simplicity and adaptability makes them sell themselves. All you need is a skilled GM for players to see that.

I'm not a TLG salesman. C&CS and KOTC members deserve to see our efforts - 10 years of volunteer efforts - result in banners across the entrances to conventions and game rooms across the country if not the continents where our games are being played with TLG's books and our supplemental materials and swag. I've been here since the beginning. Don't tell me this can't be done. It HAS been done before and money wasn't what did it. Games were. Exclusive games. For membership only. That's what made the RPGA what it became. By being exclusive you establish a brand name that represents what convention attendees translate as "the best games available".

Allow me to explain. Make no mistake, I have nothing against open gaming (also called pick-up games). I used to run open games before working for RPGA and did again when returning to attending conventions years after raising my kids. I like open gaming but see it as what it is - an alternative to network games. RPGA sought to assimilate (sure, like the Borg if you wish) open gaming into network gaming because it added more quantity, variety and quality to their offerings while whittling down the competition. They understood that open gaming is as much a competitor to a gaming network as today's Pathfinder Society or DMs Guild. And they also understood that open games were an untapped resource. I seek to tap that resource for its own benefit - to gain recognition and appreciation for your efforts. I also intend to keep an eye on our competition. Copy them? No. They copied RPGA. RPGA was a grassroots gaming campaign. Grew out of the woodwork. Great gamers invited other gamers into the mix until the competition was pail by comparison. That's how it happened. I was at or running conventions since 1980 so I'm speaking from first hand experience. If you've been around longer than that then you saw it evolve too.

Similarly, those who've been around know that open gaming has long held the reputation of being predominantly amateur gamers running unpopular games, whereas network games have held the reputation of being high-profile gamers running popular games. So which reputation would you like to convey for C&C? A major player in the industry with top gamers in the industry? Or a has-been or failed startup game with GMs who just showed up but had nothing planned? I know that's blunt and I would wholeheartedly agree that's not a fair reputation (because I got recruited for RPGA because I ran really fun open games), but it is what people think at conventions and has been for many years. Generally, less organization and less backing equals less confidence in the GM and the game and less players subsequently. If you don't like that I call that out, start a crusade at conventions to reverse that perception. I didn't start it. It is what it is and makes perfect sense considering the lack of planning and effort on the part of the organizer who comes across as a last minute convention attendee desperately trying to find players or jump in a game that has a free seat. Frankly, those are the players and GMs we want because we can offer them a full table of players and games where their seat is reserved. No more wasting 4 hours because you couldn't find players or find an open game. Why go through that struggle? Do you think the average convention attendee wants to go through that struggle? Most after trying open gaming seek more organized games so they don't feel they wasted their time and money attending a convention just to walk around feeling bored.

So you only play for fun when and if you want to? If that's your answer, what experience has convinced you that network games aren't fun or available if you want to get in them? Most would tell you they're the best of the best. Why? Because they attract top notch gamers to step up and show what they've got to players who expect to experience expert gamesmanship. But it's also available to the rookies who are welcomed wholeheartedly as well. This is not an attempt to construct an elitist organization. It's an effort to improve the gaming offerings available at organized events. And if in doing so we boost TLG's revenue. Well, which would you rather have, the owners of the game you love thrive and produce more C&C material or not? Pretty clear answer on that one.

Anyhow, that's my take on what a gaming network is about. Offer the best games with the best GMs and Players. Get enough people involved and the network becomes a growing sensation.

Brian Miller
"If you want to succeed follow in the footsteps of those who succeeded before you."

Those who aren't with us, simply ignore us. I'm reaching out to those who want to make a difference. Those who don't, this message isn't meant for you and we don't need anyone telling us it can't work.
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.

User avatar
miller6
Lore Drake
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by miller6 »

serleran wrote:The C&CS has tried a few things before -- it had its own forums, its own chat area, its own "everything." It flopped, and [highly likely] that was my fault. There have always been passionate people to get involved and it is their backs that bear the Atlas. If following the footsteps of a giant leads to success, it should be embraced; if foraging a niche on its own leads to success... it should be done. No one knows which path will go where so ideally, try everything and keep it together. Or, pick one thing and hammer it.

I'll be on vacation for 10 days starting Friday, and in that time I hope to finish a project long delayed. Assuming I do... may I ask for the title of C&CS Zookeeper?
Serl,
I will get right on making your KOTC title "Zookeeper". We'll see how we can work that in. You should be a Marshall with Peter in my humble opinion. What better title for the person responsible for the monsters that are at every turn our games who I personally watched be complimented by Gary himself for being "the monster guy"? For those who don't know, Robert a.k.a. Serleran wrote a great deal of the Monsters and Treasures C&C book and was instrumental in the creation of the Siege Engine.

Arcanechimera, let me know if you saw this.
Brian
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.

User avatar
Buttmonkey
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2031
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Buttmonkey »

miller6 wrote:Keep this discussion going. Naysayers speak up. Supporters speak up. I'm open to all comments even if they involve grammar.

Traveller, you joined the TLG Forum 8 days after I did. What's your gripe? You know me and should know I've been organizing C&C events ever since. This is nothing new except that I'm tired of going it alone and want to coordinate efforts.

All aforementioned matters aside, our quest is still to build a gaming network - our network, TLG's network, C&CS's network, KOTC's network. Make no mistake, I am supporting TLG in this effort despite a meager budget because I know it can work having watched RPGA grow form tens, to hundreds to thousands to over a million members. They didn't do it on a windfall from TSR. They did it on their own by connecting with gamers across the country and eventually internationally. And though I may not speak for everyone, I am not alone in believing Siege Engine games are the best ones out there. Their simplicity and adaptability makes them sell themselves. All you need is a skilled GM for players to see that.

I'm not a TLG salesman. C&CS and KOTC members deserve to see our efforts - 10 years of volunteer efforts - result in banners across the entrances to conventions and game rooms across the country if not the continents where our games are being played with TLG's books and our supplemental materials and swag. I've been here since the beginning. Don't tell me this can't be done. It HAS been done before and money wasn't what did it. Games were. Exclusive games. For membership only. That's what made the RPGA what it became. By being exclusive you establish a brand name that represents what convention attendees translate as "the best games available".

Allow me to explain. Make no mistake, I have nothing against open gaming (also called pick-up games). I used to run open games before working for RPGA and did again when returning to attending conventions years after raising my kids. I like open gaming but see it as what it is - an alternative to network games. RPGA sought to assimilate (sure, like the Borg if you wish) open gaming into network gaming because it added more quantity, variety and quality to their offerings while whittling down the competition. They understood that open gaming is as much a competitor to a gaming network as today's Pathfinder Society or DMs Guild. And they also understood that open games were an untapped resource. I seek to tap that resource for its own benefit - to gain recognition and appreciation for your efforts. I also intend to keep an eye on our competition. Copy them? No. They copied RPGA. RPGA was a grassroots gaming campaign. Grew out of the woodwork. Great gamers invited other gamers into the mix until the competition was pail by comparison. That's how it happened. I was at or running conventions since 1980 so I'm speaking from first hand experience. If you've been around longer than that then you saw it evolve too.

Similarly, those who've been around know that open gaming has long held the reputation of being predominantly amateur gamers running unpopular games, whereas network games have held the reputation of being high-profile gamers running popular games. So which reputation would you like to convey for C&C? A major player in the industry with top gamers in the industry? Or a has-been or failed startup game with GMs who just showed up but had nothing planned? I know that's blunt and I would wholeheartedly agree that's not a fair reputation (because I got recruited for RPGA because I ran really fun open games), but it is what people think at conventions and has been for many years. Generally, less organization and less backing equals less confidence in the GM and the game and less players subsequently. If you don't like that I call that out, start a crusade at conventions to reverse that perception. I didn't start it. It is what it is and makes perfect sense considering the lack of planning and effort on the part of the organizer who comes across as a last minute convention attendee desperately trying to find players or jump in a game that has a free seat. Frankly, those are the players and GMs we want because we can offer them a full table of players and games where their seat is reserved. No more wasting 4 hours because you couldn't find players or find an open game. Why go through that struggle? Do you think the average convention attendee wants to go through that struggle? Most after trying open gaming seek more organized games so they don't feel they wasted their time and money attending a convention just to walk around feeling bored.

So you only play for fun when and if you want to? If that's your answer, what experience has convinced you that network games aren't fun or available if you want to get in them? Most would tell you they're the best of the best. Why? Because they attract top notch gamers to step up and show what they've got to players who expect to experience expert gamesmanship. But it's also available to the rookies who are welcomed wholeheartedly as well. This is not an attempt to construct an elitist organization. It's an effort to improve the gaming offerings available at organized events. And if in doing so we boost TLG's revenue. Well, which would you rather have, the owners of the game you love thrive and produce more C&C material or not? Pretty clear answer on that one.

Anyhow, that's my take on what a gaming network is about. Offer the best games with the best GMs and Players. Get enough people involved and the network becomes a growing sensation.

Brian Miller
"If you want to succeed follow in the footsteps of those who succeeded before you."

Those who aren't with us, simply ignore us. I'm reaching out to those who want to make a difference. Those who don't, this message isn't meant for you and we don't need anyone telling us it can't work.
I'm surprised and confused by some of this. I wasn't around for the founding of the RPGA, but I thought Frank Mentzer, a full-time employee of TSR, founded it and built it. That doesn't sound grass-rootsy to me, but maybe my knowledge of history is inaccurate.

You seem to be forcing a false dichotomy between network games and open gaming at conventions. There is a third group of games that includes the vast majority of games I have seen at conventions. Those are the games submitted before the convention starts that people preregister for, but aren't affiliated with any gaming network. I have never heard anyone complain that they thought those games were disappointing generally and that the complainer wished they had registered for a network game instead. I really don't understand what you are talking about here. I've also never heard anyone say network games are the best of the best, but, of course, I'm just one guy and have not spoken to every gamer everywhere. My pool of experience may be biased.

I can't see an advantage to jumping on board this push for networked games. It's not like C&C players can't find out about the games I run at Gary Con without The Network to advertise them. Gary Con has an event catalog released before preregistration. It's all right there.

I also can't see how The Network as described is going to boost TLG's success. Comparisons to the creation of the RPGA are inapt. D&D had zillions of players in the early 80s. C&C has a chunk of the niche OSR market. It's position in the gaming community bears almost no resemblance to TSR in the early 80s. Telling newbies they can't play in our "exclusive games" for "membership only" is exclusionary in all the wrong ways. I could see a benefit to having a small selection of events at conventions available to just members of The Network. That might encourage membership and build enthusiasm for TLG games, but would not push newcomers away. Do a Network C&C event at conventions (maybe a tournament or offer some sort of swag for playing), but leave the rest of the games alone.

The message in the OP (and in other recent threads about KOTC/C&CS) is overzealous. The Network will never be the RPGA. It just won't. We will never have those kinds of numbers. It isn't a question of enthusiasm or dreaming big. It's a question of the reality of the state of the hobby. This isn't 1980 and TLG is not TSR.

You said you wanted criticism, so I've told you what I think. You are coming on too strong and I urge you to reconsider some of what you are trying to do. You also said your message isn't meant for people who aren't on board. I guess that means I'm out. I wish you well, but involvement with The Network as it is currently envisaged is definitely not for me.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3723
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Go0gleplex »

For all of this I've read it seems like two sides of the same coin. On one side we have "get involved or else/ Let's do this and grow" and on the other "why bother. we don't care."

The whole point of all of this is to try to get more folks involved actively. Brian is trying to set up a framework where it is easy to find face to face games or even online stuff, though that seems covered fairly well here with the what, dozen CKs that run such? The KotC is trying to set up resources for people to use and expand their game with, particularly those that are not as creative as several long term folks. But that only goes so far when you have half a dozen people contributing alone. The whole purpose of the chatroom is to have folks talk about their games or what and maybe spark ideas off each other. It actually works too. I wrote and published an entire game using that method of feedback in less than three months. So the message is coming on strong. The apathy around here is so thick it seems the only way to get some sort of response beyond whatever.

Maybe we won't ever be matching the RPGA or Pathfinder in numbers. So what. The point is getting involved and active and maybe we can actually achieve something more than the little happening now. The point of the Knights is to give some tangible benefits for being active an involved. But I guess general apathy and inaction is more desirable than working to build something everyone can benefit from.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
gabriellyon
Hlobane Orc
Posts: 126
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:38 pm

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by gabriellyon »

Just a few thoughts of my own on this subject. My schedule does not allow for weekly games hosted at my FLGS so I would never be able to host a C&C version of D&D and Pathfinder nights groups, BUT I am able to always run the Free RPG day adventure and usually once a year host a large month long demo of C&C. I would note that there are two tables on FRPG day that are always filled. My C&C table and the Pathfinder table.
Also while it is good to have people agree to help, it is important to support this in some way.

User avatar
Buttmonkey
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2031
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Buttmonkey »

Go0gleplex wrote:For all of this I've read it seems like two sides of the same coin. On one side we have "get involved or else/ Let's do this and grow" and on the other "why bother. we don't care."

The whole point of all of this is to try to get more folks involved actively. Brian is trying to set up a framework where it is easy to find face to face games or even online stuff, though that seems covered fairly well here with the what, dozen CKs that run such? The KotC is trying to set up resources for people to use and expand their game with, particularly those that are not as creative as several long term folks. But that only goes so far when you have half a dozen people contributing alone. The whole purpose of the chatroom is to have folks talk about their games or what and maybe spark ideas off each other. It actually works too. I wrote and published an entire game using that method of feedback in less than three months. So the message is coming on strong. The apathy around here is so thick it seems the only way to get some sort of response beyond whatever.

Maybe we won't ever be matching the RPGA or Pathfinder in numbers. So what. The point is getting involved and active and maybe we can actually achieve something more than the little happening now. The point of the Knights is to give some tangible benefits for being active an involved. But I guess general apathy and inaction is more desirable than working to build something everyone can benefit from.
Promoting TLG and its games is a very laudable goal. Giving a benefit to people for being involved with the game is laudable. My concern is the push to gather all of the CKs out there under The Network's umbrella and then say people can't play in their games unless they join The Network, whether the games are run at a game store or a convention. I'm not objecting due to apathy. I'm objecting because I think this is the wrong approach to organizing and promoting C&C games.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3723
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Go0gleplex »

I think the message is being misinterpreted then BM. That is not the intent to prevent anyone not in 'the umbrella' from playing. The intent is to provide a uniform framework for finding said games and for people to put up adverts letting others know about the games. By trying to get such in one place it gives a more visible presence to C&C and those that play and sets up a go to spot to find said games. I believe that is the bare bones of things.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
Buttmonkey
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2031
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Buttmonkey »

Go0gleplex wrote:I think the message is being misinterpreted then BM. That is not the intent to prevent anyone not in 'the umbrella' from playing.
That could be. I got the exclusivity message from:
miller6 on March 20, 2016 wrote:RPGA was the successful business model to follow. Once we have a C&C room at conventions it becomes an attraction, fills up all the tables and has more people wanting in on the games. Then we require 1 year memberships to play in KOTC events.
Link: From the Supporting C&C and TLG thread

and
miller6 earlier in this thread wrote:C&CS and KOTC members deserve to see our efforts - 10 years of volunteer efforts - result in banners across the entrances to conventions and game rooms across the country if not the continents where our games are being played with TLG's books and our supplemental materials and swag. I've been here since the beginning. Don't tell me this can't be done. It HAS been done before and money wasn't what did it. Games were. Exclusive games. For membership only. That's what made the RPGA what it became. By being exclusive you establish a brand name that represents what convention attendees translate as "the best games available".
(emphasis added)

I may just be reading enthusiastic posts too literally.
tylermo wrote:Your efforts are greatly appreciated, Buttmonkey. Can't believe I said that with a straight face.

User avatar
Go0gleplex
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 3723
Joined: Fri May 30, 2008 7:00 am
Location: Keizer, OR

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Go0gleplex »

Yeah. It is a case of apples and oranges BM. Brian is mainly talking about "official" events and tournament type play there I think. Much like how the RPGA has sanctioned tournaments that players could earn points and rankings with within the RPGA. Those are the ones that would require a membership and there were players pretty hot to make points for rankings back then.
Open games and all that would not require all the official type stuff though they might not be located in the same 'official' game room set aside for the sanctioned play.
"Rolling dice and killing characters since September 1976."
"Author of Wardogs! and Contributor to Iron Stars and Starmada-Admiralty ed."
"Certified crazy since 2009."

User avatar
miller6
Lore Drake
Posts: 1026
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:00 am

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by miller6 »

RPGA supported D&D which was huge at the time. Pathfinder Society supports Pathfinder which is huge now. DMs Guild supports D&D in any edition while promoting 5th edition (wonder if they got that idea from Gary Con since it was all about D&D but people ran whatever edition they wanted for the events they submitted). Clearly the multitude of gamers is still out there and has just been switching games so why is it so hard to believe that many of them might opt to join a C&C network as well as their Pathfinder or DMs Guild network or in preference to one of those or might switch to playing C&C? If people see C&C played, we're bound to pick up at least a percentage of those groups - mainly the ones who prefer what C&C offers that the others don't - the simplest most adaptable D&Dish game ever.

What C&C doesn't have that the others do is the marketing to make it a household name. It's not a mega corporation. It's not on TV or the radio. It no longer has entire shelves at FLGS's (at least not around here). And for now, it doesn't have much of a gaming network. The first options are too expensive. The gaming network option isn't. All you have to do is be a member and run network sanctioned games. That's what Frank Mentzer and the other founders of RPGA did. They ran their adventures and invited gamers to join RPGA and be part of a growing gaming network.

Frank Mentzer's RPGA membership number was 7 if I remember correctly. He showed it to me long time ago at a convention since a few of us were discussing who had what numbers. Mine was 1017 because I joined in 1981, the year after it started. To Frank, that was a high number back in 1981. 1017 seemed like a lot of members to me back then too. Later I could hardly find anyone with a lower number aside from Frank and the other founders. Turned out I'd gotten in at the ground level. And at that level, the GMs who joined RPGA took action which even with only just over a thousand members added a lot more games and more conventions which in turn recruited more members and so forth and so on. That's what I'm trying to get going for us.

Of course, TSR put ads for RPGA in Dragon Magazine which resulted in an awful lot of recruits too. Makes me wonder if we could buy ads in Pathfinder or D&D or other gaming publications? I bet we could and if so, Bingo, that base can be covered.

But the grassroots recruits picked up at conventions were the ones who saw what RPGA really was - GMs from TSR and other RPGA members running cool games, many of which were playtests of upcoming modules - which for us equates to offering a preview of TLGS "on the anvil" adventures as well as our own original ones from members. Adding ours would resemble what RPGA did adding submissions from their members because they couldn't come up with enough events fast enough to meet the demand at conventions by themselves. They held contests and used submissions in convention events as well as publishing some as a means of attracting submissions. Contests are a huge generator of new material. We could do that too. They also let people start gaming clubs and had contests where clubs competed. We could do that too.

Anyhow, the events started filling up so fast at conventions that it was soon decided that members should be a priority. So it wasn't about excluding people. It was about making sure members got seats since that was a benefit of membership.

Similarly, as membership grows the time will come when we will need to be exclusive with our games or our members will be competing for a seat in network games like people compete for seats in GaryCon events. Not good. Better to say, these events are a benefit for members. If non-members wish to get in, they can sign up too. So others joined during conventions just to get in the games. And it all started at tiny little gaming conventions like the first one I attended at a grade school in Lake Geneva in 1981 where I played in Pharoah before it was published. RPGA was already significantly bigger by the convention at Grand Geneva the very next year where DragonLance was a tournament before it was published.

I had my RPGA membership for a few years, watched as their mailer of members contact info grew - with the purpose of letting gamers know where they could find other gamers - until that was banned because someone complained it violated privacy. I also read their Polyhedron publications which started semi-annually and eventually became monthly. And eventually after GMing open games at Gen Con, I became an RPGA GM and then tournament coordinator and then a convention coordinator. I imagine there has to be other people who might like to do what I did only through our network instead. I'd like to give them a chance.

Thus ends my explanation of where I'm coming from and my little stroll down memory lane. lol. Hope you enjoyed reading it.

Brian Miller
Promoting C&C at Gary Con and LGGC since 2005.

User avatar
Captain_K
Greater Lore Drake
Posts: 2278
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:37 pm
Location: North Coast

Re: Message for all C&CS and KOTC members

Post by Captain_K »

Are we not all games, its the culture and the ideas, no matter who's game you play. The lines should be easy to cross, but like warring Protestants and Catholics, despite having so much in common we fight over the differences.

I borrow ideas from all I've played in the past. All games have merit.

Must we fight for more or can we be happy as a private club, living within our means, and not worrying about expansion?

If they do not want to join our club, OK, we can self sustain.. can we not?
Wow, Another Natural One! You guys are a sink hole for luck. Stay away from my dice.

Post Reply